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Should Women's Homeless Shelters Ban Trans Identified Males?

Should Women's Shelters Ban Trans Identified Males?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 12 57.1%
  • Other/Undecided

    Votes: 5 23.8%

  • Total voters
    21

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Now me, I'm cynical. I've also dealt with women who have been stalked and abused, and I have a fairly good idea of the sort of thing a man might pull if he really wants to 'get at' his target. Claiming to be transgendered in order to gain access to a shelter where his target is?

yeah, they would do that.

That does seem a rather strange approach for someone to use. Have there been any actual cases of this happening? For that matter, I suppose it's possible for a stalker to get at his target in a shelter by breaking a window or busting a door down. I guess it would depend on the structure itself and what kind of security they have. I suppose it's even possible they could slip the clerk a few hundred dollars to let them through. They could pretend to be a repairman or a maintenance guy.

It seems to me that if someone is really that hellbent on infiltrating a women's shelter, it could probably be done. But if it's an abuser going after an ex-wife or ex-girlfriend, then he'd most likely be caught - or have to live the rest of his life as a fugitive.

However, my point is, I don't think there can be absolute 100% security.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Everyone else is talking about actual transgender people, you seem to have gone of on a weird tangent about people pretending to be transgender.

Actually, no. I have no problem with transgendered people going to shelters that service those of their preferred gender. I simply believe that, especially in the case of men who 'say' they are transgendered, that they prove it. Something more than them simply claiming that they are really women.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
That does seem a rather strange approach for someone to use. Have there been any actual cases of this happening? For that matter, I suppose it's possible for a stalker to get at his target in a shelter by breaking a window or busting a door down. I guess it would depend on the structure itself and what kind of security they have. I suppose it's even possible they could slip the clerk a few hundred dollars to let them through. They could pretend to be a repairman or a maintenance guy.

It seems to me that if someone is really that hellbent on infiltrating a women's shelter, it could probably be done. But if it's an abuser going after an ex-wife or ex-girlfriend, then he'd most likely be caught - or have to live the rest of his life as a fugitive.

However, my point is, I don't think there can be absolute 100% security.

You have NO idea what sort of things stalkers can, will, and have, done. You are correct, there can't be 100% security. However, that doesn't mean that something as simple as making fully functional male claiming to be 'really' female, show some evidence for that shouldn't be part of that security.

Beats just telling those who are transgendered that they aren't allowed in, period.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You have NO idea what sort of things stalkers can, will, and have, done. You are correct, there can't be 100% security. However, that doesn't mean that something as simple as making fully functional male claiming to be 'really' female, show some evidence for that shouldn't be part of that security.

Beats just telling those who are transgendered that they aren't allowed in, period.

I seriously think that this is a non-problem. Do you have any evidence at all of men pretending to be transgender to enter a shelter?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I seriously think that this is a non-problem. Do you have any evidence at all of men pretending to be transgender to enter a shelter?

I have evidence that men have pulled some amazing things to do so.

All I'm saying is that if someone comes to a woman's shelter needing aid, and he is a fully functional male (with all the equipment) and says that he is actually transgender...a woman in a man's body...that he support that. It's a common sense security measure.

Given that such a person is probably in need of aid BECAUSE of his gender issues, it shouldn't be difficult for him to do that.

Women, transgendered male-female, and gay men should be able to access such shelters, I believe. However, it is not out of bounds to require some evidence that they are who they claim they are.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I have evidence that men have pulled some amazing things to do so.

All I'm saying is that if someone comes to a woman's shelter needing aid, and he is a fully functional male (with all the equipment) and says that he is actually transgender...a woman in a man's body...that he support that. It's a common sense security measure.

Given that such a person is probably in need of aid BECAUSE of his gender issues, it shouldn't be difficult for him to do that.

Women, transgendered male-female, and gay men should be able to access such shelters, I believe. However, it is not out of bounds to require some evidence that they are who they claim they are.
To me this seems as counterintuitive as requiring paperwork to go into a restroom. (#transbathroomgate)

But more importantly...gay men? Wouldn't that be even more difficult to 'prove' than being a trans woman?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And so they should. That's my only point here; shelters have the obligation to protect those in their care. That's what they signed up to do.
And you doubt thier abilities that they could identify someone doing such a thing, and the abilities of others to notice the abusive/stalker behaviors? Do you think children run those places? Have you never seen someine who does run them "mother hen" over the place and those living there?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That's just plain common sense.
It's also plain common knowledge that hormone treatment basically chemically castrates us. Sex drive goes down, and sustaining and even achieving an erection becomes difficult, if not impossible. The parts may be there, but the functionality is not.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Do try to use your head.

Transgendered women (male to female) who have completed the process are women. Physically women. No question. The problem here is with those men who are physically male...with all the equipment...who claim to be 'a woman in a man's body."

They may be...but as long as they still have the equipment to rape and abuse, they need to prove that their gender is female.
So people who are biologically female can't rape or abuse? Also, please explain precisely what method shelters should employ to determine whether or not someone is "physically male".

That's just plain common sense.
No, it's bigotry. You've already demonstrated that with your baseless claim that trans people are more likely to be predators than genuine seekers of shelter.

.....and it is common sense that is used in every woman's shelter I know about.

As far as medical information being private...get a grip. If it were all THAT private I could get life insurance, my husband, who was an epileptic, could have kept his driver's license, and my daughter in law could drive at night.
False comparisons. You're talking about things that necessarily require medical checks for licensing purposes and allowances, but nobody is required to voluntary disclose their medical records, particularly in situations where they are seeking shelter from abuse.

There are times and situations where medical information is important...and pertinent. If a fully functional male comes to a shelter and claims that he is really a 'woman in a man's body,' then he has a choice, IMO; provide medical proof, or go somewhere else.
Then you're putting unnecessary barriers in front of those seeking shelter from abuse, because for some reason you believe trans people are less deserving of the same protections as cis people, and you advocate an unworkable system that is designed to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Let's break this down:
You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence that predators would abuse shelters by claiming to be trans, or that this is significant enough of a problem to justify invading the privacy of trans people seeking shelter and/or diminishing their human rights. You haven't presented a workable system, and you cannot even meaningfully come up with a way to determine trans from cis women, and preventing trans women from accessing shelters will achieve nothing but putting more women in harms way.

You're wrong on every level. The problem you believe exists is imaginary, and you solution you imagine to the problem would never work.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
To me this seems as counterintuitive as requiring paperwork to go into a restroom. (#transbathroomgate)

But more importantly...gay men? Wouldn't that be even more difficult to 'prove' than being a trans woman?


Not really.

One thing for certain...I wouldn't hire you to protect the women in a shelter. I'm afraid that you'd let Michael Meyers, Jason or Ed Gein in if they assured you that they were simply innocent victims of circumstances.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
And you doubt thier abilities that they could identify someone doing such a thing, and the abilities of others to notice the abusive/stalker behaviors? Do you think children run those places? Have you never seen someine who does run them "mother hen" over the place and those living there?

Of course. And not ONE of 'em would take someone's unsupported word that s/he was 'a woman in a man's body,' and needed help. You can't have this both ways, Shadow Wolf; either there is a 'mother hen' attitude towards the people in the shelter, in which case suspicion of people making claims like this is appropriate, or those who run the shelter simply take the word of anybody coming to the door...in which case there's no protection there. At all.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
It's also plain common knowledge that hormone treatment basically chemically castrates us. Sex drive goes down, and sustaining and even achieving an erection becomes difficult, if not impossible. The parts may be there, but the functionality is not.

Well then, producing the prescription bottle with the proper name on it would do just fine, wouldn't it?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
So people who are biologically female can't rape or abuse? Also, please explain precisely what method shelters should employ to determine whether or not someone is "physically male".


No, it's bigotry. You've already demonstrated that with your baseless claim that trans people are more likely to be predators than genuine seekers of shelter.

Now that's incorrect. In no way have I claimed that trans people are more likely to be predators. In fact, my claim was that predators could pretend to be trans in order to gain access to their targets. They would do this for the same reason that pedophiles like to find positions that get them close to their victims, like preachers, priests, teachers or youth leaders; not because preachers, priests, teachers and youth leaders are more likely to be predators, but because they are NOT. It's a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' thing.

If you are going to misrepresent me this egregiously, there is absolutely no sense in continuing the conversation.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Of course. And not ONE of 'em would take someone's unsupported word that s/he was 'a woman in a man's body,' and needed help. You can't have this both ways, Shadow Wolf; either there is a 'mother hen' attitude towards the people in the shelter, in which case suspicion of people making claims like this is appropriate, or those who run the shelter simply take the word of anybody coming to the door...in which case there's no protection there. At all.
Drug abuse is a far greater issue, and one that I have dealt with while working with clients in a shelter. Mother hen there did at first take the word of the client over dcs, but after she saw the drug test results the client was placed under very heavy restrictions as a condition of her continuing to stay there.
A guy going to shelter to stalk his ex is going to be way more obvious. And his victim is going to recognize him.
Oh, yeah. And the women who go to those places, those shelters very typically admit on the basis of her word alone. They aren't asking to see bruises and scars and watching for signs of hyper-vigilance to verify they are being abused. I suspect some women may even put on an act for a bed and meal. That certainly does happen in the mental health field, where turning a client away who says the right things can lead to a potential lawsuit. And really there is no 100% way to k ow for sure if someone is legit suicidal or is desperate for attention. And in the event they are admitted, the only thing visually inspected is the M/F on their chart (and I've never seen that actually happen) to determine if they go to a male or female facility.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Well then, producing the prescription bottle with the proper name on it would do just fine, wouldn't it?
Except its illegal to request it and demand someone's medical information. And its not unusual or uncommon for someone to illegally acquire hormones because its easier than legally obtaining them (I was in that position and grew tired of having to wait on others so I could get them), and thus will not have a name on the bottle/box.
In other words: its none of your damn business and doesnt work as easily as you think it does.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Of course. And not ONE of 'em would take someone's unsupported word that s/he was 'a woman in a man's body,' and needed help.
Have you never heard of having a conversation with someone? It will often tell you far more about a person than their chart will, and certainly paint a clearer picture of them. And it doesn't require intrusive and illegal probing into private/personal information.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Except its illegal to request it and demand someone's medical information. And its not unusual or uncommon for someone to illegally acquire hormones because its easier than legally obtaining them (I was in that position and grew tired of having to wait on others so I could get them), and thus will not have a name on the bottle/box.
In other words: its none of your damn business and doesnt work as easily as you think it does.

If I were in the position of protecting the people in the shelter, then it very much IS 'my damn business."

and it is NOT illegal to request and demand medical information when someone is applying for something that is affected by a medical condition.

Just as it is the business of an insurance company to make sure that I don't have a fatal illness before issuing a life insurance policy, or of the state to make sure I don't have uncontrolled epilepsy before issuing a driver's license, or, as you have mentioned, pass drug tests before being admitted to shelters without restrictions.

It's "my damn business,' when YOUR medical condition might affect those under MY protection.

Am I saying that transgendered people should not be allowed into shelters? No, and for crying out loud, you should know that. What I'm saying is that when someone comes to a woman's shelter claiming to be transgendered, that s/he support the claim.

Then fine.
 
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