Should Women's Homeless Shelters Ban Trans Identified Males?

[The Reverend Bob]

So why is the title of this thread and the question in the poll:
Should Women's Homeless Shelters Ban Trans Identified Males?

Because. TRUMP BANS TRANS WOMEN FROM WOMEN'S SHELTERS would be inaccurate and any banning would be done on the part of the shelters, Trump is just giving them the right to do so

 

[The Reverend Bob]

No amount of drugs or surgeries will give me normal knees. They won't get rid of my anxiety or depression, either. I'll also always be autistic. But treatment helps.

Ok. I actually believe transitioning works and that it somewhat relives them of their gender dysphoria but it doesn't change the fact they aren't biological female. Hormones and surgery are not magic.

 

[Estro Felino]

Hormones and surgery are not magic.

Thank you for saying that. People think our life is easy, but artificial estradiol is not magical....
I had to change dosages twice after months of nausea, inappetence, and migraines.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Life for a "T" person is hard enough, why would anyone who expects to face God to be judged treat one badly? Suicide rate remains over 40% even after surgery.

The suicide rates remain high after transitioning because often there are untreated issues besides gender dysphoria that need to be address. Besides gender dysphoria many transgender are dealing with major depression and other mental health issues that sometimes gender counselor have ignored. If you are feeling suicidal or have frequent suicidal thought seek the counsel of a trained therapist who deals with depression rather than just gender.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ok. I actually believe transitioning works and that it somewhat relives them of their gender dysphoria but it doesn't change the fact they aren't biological female. Hormones and surgery are not magic.

I found most of my surgeries to seem magical, such as having very large tonsils removed to clear my airway and relief from carpal tunnel syndrome.
And what's interesting, in almost all cases those pointing out we aren't biological are against us and appear to be "Captain super ultra obvious." I'm aware of no one claiming such, and before "cisgendered" we had terms like "gg" or genetic girl. It's bad enough when your body betrays the mind. We don't need patronizing ******** reminding us water is wet. We know. Many of us do not survive the mismatch.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The suicide rates remain high after transitioning because often there are untreated issues besides gender dysphoria that need to be address. Besides gender dysphoria many transgender are dealing with major depression and other mental health issues that sometimes gender counselor have ignored. If you are feeling suicidal or have frequent suicidal thought seek the counsel of a trained therapist who deals with depression rather than just gender.

My, you believe yourself to be such an authority but aren't transgender. An expert in your own mind.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

My, you believe yourself to be such an authority but aren't transgender. An expert in your own mind.

I am not but I deal with homeless people and some are transgender

 

[dianaiad]

... what does that have to do with people in legitimate need of shelter fleeing abuse?

Everything.

Women who are in legitimate need of shelter and fleeing abuse are usually fleeing men. Transgender men-women are just not that common. Therefore it is reasonable to require that those who are transgendered (male to female) prove that they are before they are allowed to enter such shelters.

For the protection and safety of the women there.

As I said; it's not that hard to get diagnosed and begin the program.

 

[dianaiad]

Some insurance companies won't cover the hormones or surgery. And without the means to transition many transgender suffer gender dysphoria and resulting depression which leads to a whole of issues that need attention.

Insurance companies may not pay for the treatments. However, getting diagnosed isn't something that requires such. An official diagnosis AT LEAST should be required.

 

[dianaiad]

This paragraph is ridiculous on multiple levels.




So you'd deny access to somebody seeking assistance who didn't have the foresight to grab a copy of their medical records because they're fleeing an abusive relationship because you think trans women are dangerous despite a complete lack of evidence, and you'd potentially leave that person in greater jeopardy by forcing them to use a men's shelter (where they are substantially more likely to be subject to abuse) or returning to their abusive relationship.

On top of this, you would also have the apply the exact same rigmarole to every cis woman who attended the shelter, because you would need to investigate whether or not they are actually trans women before you gave them access, so they are also subject to all of the above issues at a time when they desperately need access to sanctuary and security.

And this is why you don't run a shelter, I presume.

Tough.

Transgender women and men know they are. So do their physicians. If they don't have enough foresight/brains/whatever to bring a phone number for the shelter owner to check, then there is something very wrong with their claim. Women come to shelters hoping to be protected from predatory and abusive males.

Part of those checks and balances you speak of would be...making certain that the man claiming to be transgender really is transgender.

You will notice, I hope, that I'm not saying that transgender men-women should not be admitted to such shelters at all.....just that they prove that they are. That's sheer common sense. Face it; political correctness aside, the odds are FAR greater than some predator male is lying to get to his 'woman' than that, just coincidentally, a transgender male-female just happens to need care.

So use your head. Check the probabilities. Make the transgender support his/her claim. THEN let him/her in.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Everything.

Women who are in legitimate need of shelter and fleeing abuse are usually fleeing men. Transgender men-women are just not that common. Therefore it is reasonable to require that those who are transgendered (male to female) prove that they are before they are allowed to enter such shelters.

For the protection and safety of the women there.

As I said; it's not that hard to get diagnosed and begin the program.

I don't understand what point 6ou think you're making.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Tough.

Transgender women and men know they are. So do their physicians. If they don't have enough foresight/brains/whatever to bring a phone number for the shelter owner to check, then there is something very wrong with their claim. Women come to shelters hoping to be protected from predatory and abusive males.

Part of those checks and balances you speak of would be...making certain that the man claiming to be transgender really is transgender.

You will notice, I hope, that I'm not saying that transgender men-women should not be admitted to such shelters at all.....just that they prove that they are. That's sheer common sense. Face it; political correctness aside, the odds are FAR greater than some predator male is lying to get to his 'woman' than that, just coincidentally, a transgender male-female just happens to need care.

So use your head. Check the probabilities. Make the transgender support his/her claim. THEN let him/her in.

Ultimately, not even a judge and police are entitled to medical information. Transgender people are overall rare. Men who pose as women for vile means are even fewer, and many places that are considered trans-inclusive have policies against suspicious behaviors and "flip-flopping."

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Tough.

Transgender women and men know they are. So do their physicians.

Not necessarily. Also, this scenario relies on people volunteering the information that they are trans upfront. To be truly sure, you would need to check the medical history of every woman who comes in to the shelter. Is that something you'd support?

If they don't have enough foresight/brains/whatever to bring a phone number for the shelter owner to check, then there is something very wrong with their claim.

Wow. A woman fleeing abuse and looking for shelter should have the "foresight/brains/whatever" to bring a phone number for their physician - who may not even be available or have the required information - in order to qualify for that shelter's protection. Sounds like a great idea.

Women come to shelters hoping to be protected from predatory and abusive males.

So do trans women. So why are you putting barriers in their way?

Part of those checks and balances you speak of would be...making certain that the man claiming to be transgender really is transgender.

Except, as said before, the individual is under no requirement whatsoever to volunteer that information if they don't want to, and medical histories are personal and private information, so the only way to be sure would be to run a medical history check on every woman who comes to the shelter, regardless of whether or not they claim they are transgender.

You will notice, I hope, that I'm not saying that transgender men-women should not be admitted to such shelters at all.....just that they prove that they are. That's sheer common sense. Face it; political correctness aside, the odds are FAR greater than some predator male is lying to get to his 'woman' than that, just coincidentally, a transgender male-female just happens to need care.

And thus, your transphobia is exposed. You seriously believe that it is FAR more likely that a transgender person is just a "predator male" than a genuine victim of abuse. That's just plain bigotry, and not borne out by reality at all, even remotely. I would like you to provide one shred of evidence than that is the case.

So use your head. Check the probabilities. Make the transgender support his/her claim. THEN let him/her in.

Unfortunately, the world isn't so childishly simple, and "probabilities" doesn't even enter into it. You're just basing your presumption on nothing but your blind bigotry against trans women, and the completely baseless and unfounded assumption that a trans woman is somehow more likely be a predator than someone who claims not to be trans.

Your solution simply doesn't work. All it takes is for a trans person to not disclose that they are trans (something that should be well within their rights) and your system utterly breaks down. What's more, this "solution" isn't really a solution at all, because there is no actual problem to be solved. Nobody has demonstrated that there is any significant number of predators posing as trans women to gain access to shelters. You're inventing a problem borne out of bigotry and blind prejudice, treating trans women as fundamentally less than women.

Because it's not really about the safety of women. It's about putting trans women in their place.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

only way to be sure would be to run a medical history check on every woman who comes to the shelter, regardless of whether or not they claim they are transgender.

Fortunately, such a thing would be very illegal.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Fortunately, such a thing would be very illegal.

And very rightly so.

 

[dianaiad]

I don't understand what point 6ou think you're making.

That makes two of us.

I get the impression that it is somehow wrong to deny men access to abused women's shelters if they so much as hint that they might be transgendered.

Now me, I'm cynical. I've also dealt with women who have been stalked and abused, and I have a fairly good idea of the sort of thing a man might pull if he really wants to 'get at' his target. Claiming to be transgendered in order to gain access to a shelter where his target is?

yeah, they would do that.

....and given the relative probabilities of a man who is willing to do pretty much anything to get at his target, as opposed to someone who is transgendered and in need of shelter, I'm going for the cautious. You are transgendered? Fine. Prove it. Then you can come in.

I have, however, been treated as if I were willing to deny shelter to transgendered people.

Nope. If they are transgendered, no problem. Prove it.

 

[dianaiad]

Ultimately, not even a judge and police are entitled to medical information. Transgender people are overall rare. Men who pose as women for vile means are even fewer, and many places that are considered trans-inclusive have policies against suspicious behaviors and "flip-flopping."

And so they should. That's my only point here; shelters have the obligation to protect those in their care. That's what they signed up to do.

 

[dianaiad]

Not necessarily. Also, this scenario relies on people volunteering the information that they are trans upfront. To be truly sure, you would need to check the medical history of every woman who comes in to the shelter. Is that something you'd support?


Wow. A woman fleeing abuse and looking for shelter should have the "foresight/brains/whatever" to bring a phone number for their physician - who may not even be available or have the required information - in order to qualify for that shelter's protection. Sounds like a great idea.


So do trans women. So why are you putting barriers in their way?


Except, as said before, the individual is under no requirement whatsoever to volunteer that information if they don't want to, and medical histories are personal and private information, so the only way to be sure would be to run a medical history check on every woman who comes to the shelter, regardless of whether or not they claim they are transgender.


And thus, your transphobia is exposed. You seriously believe that it is FAR more likely that a transgender person is just a "predator male" than a genuine victim of abuse. That's just plain bigotry, and not borne out by reality at all, even remotely. I would like you to provide one shred of evidence than that is the case.


Unfortunately, the world isn't so childishly simple, and "probabilities" doesn't even enter into it. You're just basing your presumption on nothing but your blind bigotry against trans women, and the completely baseless and unfounded assumption that a trans woman is somehow more likely be a predator than someone who claims not to be trans.

Your solution simply doesn't work. All it takes is for a trans person to not disclose that they are trans (something that should be well within their rights) and your system utterly breaks down. What's more, this "solution" isn't really a solution at all, because there is no actual problem to be solved. Nobody has demonstrated that there is any significant number of predators posing as trans women to gain access to shelters. You're inventing a problem borne out of bigotry and blind prejudice, treating trans women as fundamentally less than women.

Because it's not really about the safety of women. It's about putting trans women in their place.

Do try to use your head.

Transgendered women (male to female) who have completed the process are women. Physically women. No question. The problem here is with those men who are physically male...with all the equipment...who claim to be 'a woman in a man's body."

They may be...but as long as they still have the equipment to rape and abuse, they need to prove that their gender is female.

That's just plain common sense.

.....and it is common sense that is used in every woman's shelter I know about.

As far as medical information being private...get a grip. If it were all THAT private I could get life insurance, my husband, who was an epileptic, could have kept his driver's license, and my daughter in law could drive at night.

There are times and situations where medical information is important...and pertinent. If a fully functional male comes to a shelter and claims that he is really a 'woman in a man's body,' then he has a choice, IMO; provide medical proof, or go somewhere else.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

That makes two of us.

I get the impression that it is somehow wrong to deny men access to abused women's shelters if they so much as hint that they might be transgendered.

Now me, I'm cynical. I've also dealt with women who have been stalked and abused, and I have a fairly good idea of the sort of thing a man might pull if he really wants to 'get at' his target. Claiming to be transgendered in order to gain access to a shelter where his target is?

yeah, they would do that.

....and given the relative probabilities of a man who is willing to do pretty much anything to get at his target, as opposed to someone who is transgendered and in need of shelter, I'm going for the cautious. You are transgendered? Fine. Prove it. Then you can come in.

I have, however, been treated as if I were willing to deny shelter to transgendered people.

Nope. If they are transgendered, no problem. Prove it.

Everyone else is talking about actual transgender people, you seem to have gone off on a weird tangent about people pretending to be transgender.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Everyone else is talking about actual transgender people, you seem to have gone of on a weird tangent about people pretending to be transgender.

That is because a strawman is easier to defend than real world situations. How often have we heard of the pervert pretending to be transgender? How many actual cases have they ever found? The answers are far too often and none that I know of.