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Shruti verse request

Amrut

Aum - Advaita
And kindly tell me what is wrong with critically examining Adi Shankara's work. Sankara (He is my guru) would have been delighted at the opportunity of a discussion. What is scholarship if it cannot stand critical examination?

Intention

Kindly do not ascribe motives to the Western Indologists. Not just scriptural translation, but we were given a head-start in archaeology and history also by Western Indologists. BTW, Pandit Narayan Shastry wrote the preface or a review of one of my grandfather's books as far as I remember. My grandfather translated Lokmanya Tilak's books in Hindi (Arctic Home in Vedas and Orion) and wrote three books on RigVeda.

Pranams to your grandfather. Scholarlyness does not mean he is a saint. Saint dives deep withing oneself, while scholar / pandit is satisfied by mere outward knowledge.

I have no info on your ansisters. So it is pointless to accuse them. If they are very genuine, then my words are not for them.

I humbly request you to please not to wear the cap.

There are good people and bad people everywhere in all sectors.

What I am trying to say is that, certain things like commenting on veda-s, etc can only be done by a Self Realized. Again I am not indirectly pointing anything to you or to your respected grandfather.

That is why not all have rights to actually write commentary on upanishads and veda-s. That is why not many saints have written commentaries on all 5 veda-s.

One has to be both shrotriya and brhamanistha --> added qualification.

For non-spiritual fields, it is ok.

If certain things are kept away form masses, it is for good. Better dont pass on to knowledge to a brilliant but destructive mind. It is better to teach 10 times more to a honest, constructive mind.

In spirituality, mind, it's purity is more important.

A sadAcArI does not necessarily mean he is GYAnI.

That is why hari nAma sankirtan is considered as the best way to progress in spirituality.

People with materialitic mindset cannot correctly interpret shastras. If God's grace is not there in a person, then ... There is no power in their teaching, as they lack direct experience, which only God can give you.

Sri Ramakrishna says that only after God orders, you can spread teachings of shastras. Again, just by assuming in mind that this inspiration is given by God is not enough, God himself must give darshan and give orders.

Hence works of some saints, some acharyas remain immortal, while many works fade away with time.

No offences please.

Don't worry. Probably 90% of Hindus (those that know about him) have no respect for what Muller did. He's been discredited and refuted by many modern scholars, just as AIT has been. But some people still cling to the 'old' ways. :) Solid Evidence Debunking Aryan Invasion

Thank you vinayaka ji :)

Thanks for the link.

Hinduism♥Krishna;3815766 said:
They're the people who've blue eyes, :D who came from east of afhaghanistan. Bhavishya Purana says Mlecchas will invade Aryas(Indians) and make them their slaves.

Max muller was an incarnation of servant of kaliyuga. He was appointed to destroy Vaidika Dharma of Aryavarta and he did this job. But no worry Kalki is gonna come to kill such Asuras. Asura means who doesn't believe in veda and intentionally distort it. Distorting Veda is one of the greatest sins and the fruit of this is Hell only.

I would not go to such an extend. He might have played some role, which is ultimately a wish of God. But then we do not need to follow his interpretations. This is my opinion.

P.S. I do not have vengeance or hatred for westerners.

Hari OM
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Amrut, you're just 4th of 5th on the list in this forum to engage Aup in this debate. None of the previous debaters (I was one of them) had any luck whatsoever in demonstrating from modern research that he was holding onto outdated concepts in the same way as some people still say 'Madras' instead of Chennai. If you want to continue, be my guest, but please don't hold onto any high expectations.

Having said all that, Aup is a valuable contributor to many aspects of this DIR, especially culture, and tolerance. I don't think history is his strong point.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Commenting/translating on scriptures is for people who know the language and work on them in scientific manner. That is better than a biased translation like what Swami Dayanand, Aurobindo, and Srila Prabhupada did. Amrut, let us finish this debate here. As Vinayaka said, it is not going to change my views or yours, which we have already clearly stated. Let us both, respect the environment of the forum. Regards.
 
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Amrut

Aum - Advaita
Commenting/translating on scriptures is for people who know the language and work on them in scientific manner. That is better than a biased translation like what Swami Dayanand, Aurobindo, and Srila Prabhupada did. Amrut, let us finish this debate here. As Vinayaka said, it is not going to change my views or yours, which we have already clearly stated. Let us both, respect the environment of the forum. Regards.

I agree.

Thank you Vinayaka ji for your suggestions.

Kind Regards
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Hinduism♥Krishna;3815766 said:
They're the people who've blue eyes, :D who came from east of afhaghanistan. Bhavishya Purana says Mlecchas will invade Aryas(Indians) and make them their slaves.

You do know that 'mleccha' is offensive to us non-Indians because it connotes that we are less civilized? I don't have blue eyes, so am I still a mleccha? :rolleyes:

Max muller was an incarnation of servant of kaliyuga. He was appointed to destroy Vaidika Dharma of Aryavarta and he did this job. But no worry Kalki is gonna come to kill such Asuras. Asura means who doesn't believe in veda and intentionally distort it. Distorting Veda is one of the greatest sins and the fruit of this is Hell only.

Contrary to popular belief and the attendant vilification, Muller's intent was not to denigrate India or Indians.

"...an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar" ... "the blackest Hindus represent an earlier stage of Aryan speech and thought than the fairest Scandinavians." - F. Max Müller, Biographies of Words and the Home of the Aryas (1888), Kessinger Publishing reprint, 2004, p.120; Dorothy Matilda Figueira, Aryans, Jews, Brahmins: Theorizing Authority Through Myths of Identity, Suny Press, 2002, p.45

It seems from these comments Muller put Indians on a higher pedestal than blue-eyed blond-haired Europeans.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Contrary to popular belief and the attendant vilification, Muller's intent was not to denigrate India or Indians.

Intent is difficult to determine. I don't think the Europeans who came to America necessarily intended to destroy the lives of America's inhabitants. It was more likely they just wanted riches, and the cultures here got tin the way.

Certainly modern day evangelist's aren't intending to destroy other cultures. From their POV, it's all helping. So I think we need to look objectively.

Here's an anti-Muller site, for balance. http://encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/35_max_muller.htm

That said, I'm also a mleccha. :) Darn happy to be one some days.
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I know, sometimes we have to embrace our shortcomings. :D

The old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is often very true. There is also always someone or some group that has an agenda and can spin anything into good or bad, 'tis true.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Shantoham ji

Shântoham;3814798 said:
Namaskāram


I have no personal take on Scriptures. I can only tell you what the Ācārya(s) and the Sanskrit text are saying. In the translation you quote I would ask where that Only comes from…


seeing as I didn't put it there .....I like you can only take the word of the Acharyas who have translated thus ....

but let us examine it ....


Here is what the verse says:

aham hi – I indeed
sarva-yajñānām – of all sacrifices
bhoktā ca – and enjoyer
prabhuḥ eva ca – and certainly master
[te tu] – but they
tattvena – truly
mām – me
na abhijānanti – they do not distinguish
ataḥ [te] – for this reason they
cyavanti – fall
however examining your translation I understand the use of ''only'' ....I indeed am the enjoyer of all sacrifices .... one who enjoys ''all sacrifices '' ..is the ''only enjoyer .....it is very simple .

actualy Krsna is saying I indeed , certainly , am the enjoyer
of all sacrifices , and master, but those that do not distinguish fall (down)

we must conscider that this means fall down as the atainment of any heavenly abode is conscidered metaphoricaly higher than that of embodied birth .
one could I agree use ''go to'' ...the heavenly abode ...in which case verse 21 reads ... they 'return' to this material world when their merit is exausted ....


The word we should examine is Cyavanti. It derives from the verbal root Cyu – to fall, to go. Conjugated that way it means they fall. It does not imply a fall from somewhere. It indicates a fall – like a stumble. We derive the meaning falling down by the connection between this verse and verse 9.21. Interestingly enough, this verse has a few alternative readings according to whichever manuscript we consult. Instead of Sarva-yajñānāṁ we have Sarva-Bhūtānāṁ – of all beings. Instead of Cyavanti we have Calaṁti, Vyacaṁti, Cavaṁti, and Calaṁte – they shake, they bend. I guess this should make the reading a bit more interesting.
prabhu ji this is absurd , it may make it interesting but in the context of the conversation it is incorect the discussion was about those who atain Brahman and whether or not it is possible to fall down having attains Brahman.....verse 21 follows 20 in which sri Krsna is talking about those who worship the vedic gods who have their own abodes ...ie one who atains Indra loka ...they may fall down as these hevenly abodes are temporary .....this has nothing to do with attaining Brahman .

You mentioned Bhagavadgītā 7.24. I won’t discuss it – as it is against DIR regulations –


how is discussing something against the rules of Hinduism DIR ?



In the intrests of harmony between sects I would like to suggest that it is futile to continue this conversation you feel that your understanding of the Gita is being distorted , I likewise feel the same , I take no offence as I understand the differences . but do not wish others to be offended as some will be .

Pranama's

 
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Kalidas

Well-Known Member
Intent is difficult to determine. I don't think the Europeans who came to America necessarily intended to destroy the lives of America's inhabitants. It was more likely they just wanted riches, and the cultures here got tin the way.

Certainly modern day evangelist's aren't intending to destroy other cultures. From their POV, it's all helping. So I think we need to look objectively.

Here's an anti-Muller site, for balance. (35) Max Mller. A paid employee, who translated the Rigved in a demeaning style. The hidden secrets of his life.

That said, I'm also a mleccha. :) Darn happy to be one some days.

I'm just happy he's the only Indian I have had the "pleasure" of meeting with these thoughts as him.

I wonder what he would think about the swami of that kali maa temple being hispanic?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I wonder what he would think about the swami of that kali maa temple being hispanic?
Are there no Indian Bishops? I think there are one or two even in the Papal College. Hispanics, Africans, as Hindu temple priests are already there (Hare Krishnas). :D
 

Asha

Member
Namaste,

Hinduism♥Krishna;3815766 said:
They're the people who've blue eyes, :D who came from east of afhaghanistan. Bhavishya Purana says Mlecchas will invade Aryas(Indians) and make them their slaves.

Enough of this Mlecchas nonsence, I have blue eyes, :( And ...
Max muller was an incarnation of servant of kaliyuga. He was appointed to destroy Vaidika Dharma of Aryavarta and he did this job. But no worry Kalki is gonna come to kill such Asuras. Asura means who doesn't believe in veda and intentionally distort it. Distorting Veda is one of the greatest sins and the fruit of this is Hell only.

I hate to say it but there are plenty of Bharatia born dark eyed fellows who have in the past and are to this day doing a pretty good job of destroying and distorting Vaidic Dharma, and FYO when Kalki comes to kill the asuras he symultaniously liberates them so there will be no hell only rebirth for these fellows.

but you must understand that the initial intention of such scollars was Knoble, even if the outcome of their works are insuficient they serve a purpose. Please imagine the influence that such works have had on european thinking. And even if the process is incomplete ? Please consider how many western minds have deen drawn to study the vedas more closely ?

Please consider this before you wish hell on to others


Jai Shree Krishna
 

Asha

Member
Namaste,

There are good people and bad people everywhere in all sectors.

Here I am in full agreement

What I am trying to say is that, certain things like commenting on veda-s, etc can only be done by a Self Realized. Again I am not indirectly pointing anything to you or to your respected grandfather.

Again this is perfectly true, we should all take the guidance of a realised soul and from some form of genuine sampradaya, if we read scollarly texts we should realise the difference between these interlectual texts and those writen by qualified acharyas.

That is why not all have rights to actually write commentary on upanishads and veda-s. That is why not many saints have written commentaries on all 5 veda-s.

Again true.

If certain things are kept away form masses, it is for good. Better dont pass on to knowledge to a brilliant but destructive mind. It is better to teach 10 times more to a honest, constructive mind.

There are levels of knowledge which I agree belong only in a structured program of learning unger a qualified acharya, this is why shree Krishna Recomended devotional service, but these days where there is open acess to so much literature, the onus is on us to be carefull what and how we read.


That is why hari nAma sankirtan is considered as the best way to progress in spirituality.

And certainly Hari Nama as it cleanses the heart.

P.S. I do not have vengeance or hatred for westerners.

Hari OM

For that I am glad, but please prabhu do not be drawn into these issues, there is too much display of hatred here on this site, and not only from Indian Hindus, this hatred is a kaliyuga problem of disserspect and envy in our hearts. We must all guard against it.

Jai Shree Krishna
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
Asha said:
Enough of this Mlecchas nonsence, I have blue eyes, :( And ..

I said that because Europeans who've blue eyes, through their racist ignorance, intentionally think that Indra has blue eyes.. :D

but you must understand that the initial intention of such scollars was Knoble,
This means you don't know the real face of Max Muller, which has been exposed withe proofs.

Max Muller’s letters dated August 25, 1856, February 26, 1867, and December 16, 1868 reveal the fact that he was desperate to bring Christianity into India so that the religion of the Hindus should be doomed.


His letters also reveal that:|
He lived in poverty before he was employed by the British. His duplicity in translation was praised by his superiors, and in London, where he lived, there were a lot of Orientalists working for the British.

To Chevalier Bunsen, 55 St. John Street, Oxford, August 25, 1856, he wrote:
“I should like to live for 10 years quite quietly and learn the language, try to make friends, and then see whether I was fit to take part in a work, by means of which the old mischief of Indian priestcraft could be overthrown and the way opened for the entrance of simple Christian teaching.Whatever finds root in India soon overshadows the whole of Asia.”

To the Dean of St. Paul’s (Dr. Milman), Stauton House Bournemouth, February 26, 1867, he wrote:
“I have myself the strongest belief in the growth of Christianity in India. There is no country so ripe for Christianity as India, and yet the difficulties seem enormous.”

(source: The True History and the Religion of India: A Concise Encycloedia of Authentic Hinduism – By Swami Prakashanand Saraswati p. 268 – 270). For more on Max Muller refer to chapter FirstIndologists and Aryan Invasion Theory).***


As Max Mueller, the propagator of the Aryan invasion theory, wrote to his wife, “It took only 200 years for us to Christianise the whole of Africa, but even after 400 years India eludes us, I have come to realize that it is Sanskrit which has enabled India to do so. And to break it I have decided to learn Sanskrit.”

He had written a letter to Bunsen saying- “ …nevertheless I of course shall be glad if the Rigveda is dealt with in the Edinburgh review, and if Wilson would write from the standpoint of a missionary, and would show how the knowledge and bringing into light of the Veda would upset the whole existing system of Indian theology, it might become of real interest ”(The life and letters of Maxmuller, vol.1, p. 117, London edn.)


Bishop of Calcutta wrote to him (Maxmuller) “I feel considerable interest in the matter, because I am sure that it is of the greatest importance for our missionaries to understand Sanskrit, to study the philosophy and sacred books of the Hindus, and to be able to meet the pundits on their own ground. Among the means to this great end, none can be more important than your edition and professor Wilson’s translation of the Rigveda. It would be most fitting in my opinion for a great Christian university to place in its Sanskrit chair the scholar who has made the Sanskrit scriptures accessible to the Christian missionary.”
(The life and letters of Maxmuller, vol.1, p. 236-237, London edn.)


the letter of Maxmuller written to his wife in 1866 exposed his aspirations. “I hope I shall finish that work (translation of Rigveda), and I feel convinced, though I shall not live to see it, that this edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India, and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what that root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung up from it during the last 3000 years”. (The life and letters of Maxmuller, vol.1, p. 328, London edn.)

Maxmuller and Swami Dayanand
Great Vedic scholar Swami Dayanand Saraswati in Satyarth Prakash p.278 as “the impression that the Germans are the best Sanskrit scholars, and that no one has read so much of Sanskrit as Prof Maxmuller, is altogether unfounded exposed Maxmuller. Yes, in a land where lofty trees never grow, even recinus communis or the castor oil plant may be called as oak…. I came to learn from a letter of a principal of some German university, that even men learned enough to interpret a Sanskrit letter are rare in Germany. I have also learnt from the study of Maxmuller’s history of Sanskrit literature and his comments on some mantras of the Veda, that prof. Maxmuller has been able to scribble out something by the help of the so-called tikas or paraphrases of the Vedas current in India” Swami Ji was supported in his view by famous German scholar Schopenhauer that our Sanskrit scholars do not understand their text much better than the higher class boys their Greek or Latin.
In the context of the commentary/translation of the Vedas by Max Muller, it will be relevant to point out the opinion of Mr. Boulanger, the editor of Russian edition of The Sacred Books of the East Series as follows:
“What struck me in Maxmuller’s translation was a lot of absurdities, obscene passages and a lot of what is not lucid”.
“As far as I can grab the teaching of the Vedas, it is so sublime that I would look upon it as a crime on my part, if the Russian public becomes acquainted with it through the medium of a confused and distorted translation, thus not deriving for its soul that benefit which this teaching should give to the people”.
Swami Dayanand translation of Vedas is based on Yasaka’s, Nirukta and Panini Ashtadhyyayi that have been considered and accepted throughout the ages and throughout the world as indispensable for correct comprehension. He specially elaborated spiritual meaning of Vedas
Maxmuller with fear of being exposed started attacking swami Dayanand not through the way as scholar does but like a shrewd clever mind after his death. He write to malabari that he had “wished to warn against two dangers, that of undervaluing or despising the ancient natural religion, as is done so often by your half-Europeanized youths, and that of overvaluing it, and interpretating it as it was never meant to be interpreted, of which you may see a painful instance in Dayanand Saraswati’s labors on the Veda. (Ref- the life and letters of Maxmuller, vol. 2, p.115, newyork edn).” He thought Dayanand had interpreted the Veda ought to have been interpreted. That the interpretation had to be from the standpoint of a missionary so that the translation would be of help in uprooting Hinduism and in the conversion of the Hindus to Christianity. He like a coward tried to smear Dayanand’s name after his death in these words “…but he indulged for a time in the use of bhang, hemp, which put him into a state of reverie from which he found it difficult to rouse himself”(ref- chips from a German workshop, vol.2, p.178). In a postscript Maxmuller added “from what has come to light after Dayanand Saraswati’s death, I am afraid that he was not simple-minded and straightforward on his work as a reformer as I imagined” ”(ref- chips from a German workshop, vol.2, p.182)
Though Christian missionary backed government of India purposefully to ignore Swami Dayanand in his times but it did not deter the lion-hearted Dayanand from his mission of reviving the Vedic dharma.
It’s very clear that Maxmuller was a Christian missionary but only in secular garb of a philologist whose main aim was to denounce the Vedas to clear way for Christian missionaries. Maxmuller masqueraded all his lifetime from behind the mask of literature and philology and mortgaged his pen, intellect and scholarship to wreck Hinduism but Swami Dayanand exposed his cruel plans.
 
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