Signs for our times

[Sirona]

Don't really see the Bahá’í community as much of a force for anything. Other than here on RF I never hear anything about them.

Just not much of a player in the shaping of our future.

They want non-Baha'is to unite, and what many of them don't seem to understand is that you tend to antagonize people by proselytizing, at least on this forum, so maybe some of them achieve some sort of "unity in diversity" indeed by antagonizing many people of all kinds of religions at the same time.

Of course everybody has the right to promote their religion, but from what I've seen on this forum, their strategy hasn't proved yet to be successful.

 

[Deeje]

Agreed, 100%

What greater choice do we have, than to know the enemy is our own self.

Who told you that? Jesus said that the devil is a real entity....calling him the "father of the lie" and the one responsible for bringing sin into the world. (Romans 5:12) Without his appearance as the serpent in the garden, (who questioned God's sovereign right to set reasonable limits for his earthly children) the man and woman would never have even given that tree a second look.

It took a lie (eliminating the penalty) and a suggestion that they were missing out on something they had a right to know....the serpent implied that God was holding back something beneficial....but was he? There was only one way to find out.....let them serve the interests of the god they had chosen and see where it would take them. And here we are at the brink of a new era. But there is a parting of the ways at this juncture.

We are at a crossroad, where we must choose the path to take in this "time of the end".
Jesus said that there are only two roads......not many.....only one God who does not masquerade as other gods. There are only sheep and goats.....not a mixed flock....so we must choose our path......and in doing so, we choose our destination. Baha'i does not subscribe to this, but seem to want to be the one religion that embraces everyone......sorry that is not where we are going according to the Bible. We are not one big happy family and we never will be one until God does what he knew he had to do right from the beginning.

He is separating mankind as we speak.....we will all land in one category or the other.....God makes his decision by considering the choices we make. We do not want to be on the receiving end of Jesus' rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23) vainly trying to justify those choices.

John 8:44...Jesus said to the Pharisees...
"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie."

In the above quoted scripture, Jesus was addressing those who displayed similar traits to the devil......so how is the devil "the father of the lie"? What was Jesus referring to if not the first lie told by the devil in the garden of Eden? ("you surely will not die") He is a murderer because he tempted the woman to eat the forbidden fruit, knowing that it would lead to her death....that fruit was the only thing on earth that God claimed as his own. It symbolized his sovereignty. And it was the only command that carried the death penalty if it was violated.

Jesus was a perfect human specimen, without sin, because he was sent as the redeemer of mankind....the Bible says that a life had to be offered in exchange for a life in order for God's justice to be satisfied....Jesus' perfect life was offered in exchange for the perfect life Adam took from his children......so how does a sinless man have to contend with an internal enemy that the Bible says is only in sinful humans?

James wrote...
"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."

Sin was produced by disobedience....Jesus was never disobedient to his God.....not ever once in his whole existence. As a perfect man, he would never have had imperfection of mind or body to deal with....and he would never have died of natural causes.....there was no natural cause of death in Eden. Only sin could bring death....even the sin of others.....(Jesus was put to death by sinful men)

I see this view fits this OP perfectly, I would say, knowing the views of my JW friends, that the JW would definitely play a part in the unfolding of the verses quoted in the OP post.

The only part we play in this world is that of messengers......we take the "good news of the Kingdom" to people all over the world as Jesus commanded. I don't think that there are too many people who don't know who Jehovah's Witnesses are since we are found "in all the inhabited earth".....that preaching was to be carried out right to "the end". (Matthew 24:14)

Good thing is, you know we will only offer you all peace and goodwill.

Tony, there are so many things that you believe that are in opposition to what the Bible teaches.....I have no idea how you can reconcile them when they are diametrically opposed?

What you believe sounds nice, but you know that we would never offer you anything but what God has commanded us to tell you and everyone else. If you think for one minute that the Kingdom will "come" by the actions of man, then you have never read the Bible. Man will never solve the world's problems because man IS the problem.....doing what HE thinks is right and meanwhile we are staring down the barrel of extinction because of man's gross mismanagement of this earth.....the 'Landlord' is about to evict all those who do not want what HE is bringing about....a theocratic government that will unite mankind by crushing failed human governments out of existence. (Daniel 2:44) This is what we pray for.....not a flawed government of man but a perfect government of God.....

The devil is going down and so will all those who think that humans can ever be united in governing this planet without him.

We are all free to believe as we wish.....but if people have a wrong view of who God is and what he intends to do with his earth, then if they have chosen to serve the wrong god, they will never get to enjoy what's coming.

Exclusive devotion is what God demands.....I cannot see how Baha'i's give that to the God of the Bible....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We are all free to believe as we wish.....but if people have a wrong view of who God is and what he intends to do with his earth, then if they have chosen to serve the wrong god, they will never get to enjoy what's coming.

Personally to me faith is not about our desire to enjoy what may be.

Christ showed us it was to give all we can for the good of all others while here.

Here is part of a prayer that I can share with you;

".... All praise be unto Thee, O Thou besides Whom there is none other God. Graciously enable me to ascend unto Thee, to be granted the honor of dwelling in Thy nearness and to have communion with Thee alone. No God is there but Thee.
Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance... "

Our own perception of God's Will for humanity is such a test. When we make of God's Word, our own faiths, we unknowingly are worshiping a God of our own making.

The Bible warns man not to add those meanings to the Bible.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Don't really see the Bahá’í community as much of a force for anything. Other than here on RF I never hear anything about them.

Just not much of a player in the shaping of our future.

The Bahá’í International Community plays an advisory role on many UN bodies such as UNICEF, the Multi-Faith Advisory Council, etc and many of its ideas and concepts have been adopted by the UN and spread throughout all the nations of the world. The unity of mankind, oneness of religion, the status of women, the need for an auxiliary universal language, independent investigation of truth, harmony between science and religion, world peace, world disarmament, an international tribunal, a just world order. These are things needed today but yet to be achieved. The emergence of multi cultural and interfaith can be traced back to Baha’u’llah’s Words and I can provide them, with Baha’is quietly promoting these concepts in a non violent, non political manner, without resorting to things like street protests etc. Breaking down prejudices of race, religion and nationality is done through education alone.

Many of Bahá’u’llah’s ideas have been adopted by many countries around the world, being unaware that their actual source was Baha’u’llah Himself.

In this age therefore, I would argue that the Bahá’í Faith is the most influential driving force for change on our planet, not through numbers, but with ideas and concepts relevant to today’s needs, such as the oneness and equality of humankind and that all the major religions are true.

But only one who is fully cognisant with His Writings and Teachings can truly understand and fully appreciate this fact.

Baha’is took part in the formation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights with even some of their wording directly incorporated into the document. For anyone to dismiss the universal influence of Baha’u’llah, I maintain, is unlikely to be fully aware of His teachings and when they first appeared and that they were revolutionary at the time. (29th century)

We focus on the positive which doesn’t often make the news. For instance the blacks lives matters movement is just recent but because of the nature of their activities, are reported all over the world, whereas Baha’is focus on ‘racial harmony’ for over a hundred years is largely ignored as it’s not sensational news. So although we are not overturning cars and setting them alight, we are creating racial harmony.


https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1220

Reflections From A Baha'i | A Brief History of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - The Community Word

https://www.bic.org/sites/default/files/pdf/un75_20201020.pdf

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Plan of Action Advanced Copy.pdf

 

[Vinayaka]

Don't really see the Bahá’í community as much of a force for anything. Other than here on RF I never hear anything about them.

Just not much of a player in the shaping of our future.

There are thousands of groups of all other faiths and secular groups doing tons of things to improve the conditions on this planet. I know of no faith that doesn't have a social work aspect to it. In my city, Catholic Social Services, several housing groups, the Food bank, and hundreds of other charities contribute to it on a daily basis. All a person has to do for any country is google 'List of charities'. As far as I know, the very small Baha'i group here cleans up a 2 mile portion of a highway, and have a sign to show for it. They are the epitome of 'all talk, no action'.

Most other groups don't advertise their work, they just do it. The advertising they do do comes during an annual fundraising campaign.

 

[Vinayaka]

The false narrative that Baha'u'llah's ideas were original runs rampant. His ideas were around in many ancient philosophies, including the Greeks, Sanatana Dharma, Buddhism, and more. None of it was new. It may have been new in that part of the world, where tribal warring was the norm, but not outside of there.

 

[Vinayaka]

There are about 5 million Baha’is worldwide so similar size to a country such as Ireland, Denmark or New Zealand. Its true we are not one of the major religions like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. Then again not everyone lives in the most populated countries. Nonetheless we can and do exert enormous influence at times, sometimes in stark contrast to our relatively small size. Even the big religions were small and obscure once. Many of the Teachings of the Baha’i Faith such as the oneness of humanity, the abolition of all prejudices based on race, religion and nationality, the necessity for global cooperation and development and the equality of men and women are very much mainstream.

That 5 million figure is debatable. I'd put it closer to a million. For new readers: Baha'is claim to have 2 million adherents in India, while the Indian census showed less than 5000, last time it was done. Bahai's have quite a reputation for exaggerating their numbers and their impact.

 

[Left Coast]

First, I'd like to harken back to a thread i created some time ago regarding what makes a prophecy believable:

How To Make a Believable Prophecy

Needless to say, the vague lines in the OP do not make the cut.

Secondly, I think it's rather odd to give Baha'i credit for world progress in the last century. The progress we've made has not been because of a relatively tiny, obscure Middle Eastern religion. It's been because of secularism and rise of a more scientifically-based, liberal worldview. That perspective is the one that has precipitated the advancement of women's rights, the abolition of slavery and continued movement toward racial equality, the spread of education, literacy, and more advanced and effective healthcare across much of the world, and so on.

 

[Vinayaka]

In the privileged countries of the West. And sometimes not even there. See Black Lives Matter.
If I look at the situation of the Baha'is in Iran, and at the situation of dissidents in Muslim countries in general, for example, there's not so much of "abolition of prejudice" or "equality of men and women".

One does not have to look further than at the all male Baha'i UHJ to see hypocrisy about equality of men and women.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

This is a question I can't get answered, here another try.

Did Bahaullah get one visit from the spirit he said was god? Then that was enough for him to write 15,000 tablets of his own ideas. Is this right?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

1. ■The oneness of God
   
   
2. ■The essential unity of religion
   
   
3. ■The unity of mankind
4. 
   
5. ■Harmony of religion and science
   
   
6. ■Independent investigation of truth
   
   
7. ■The need for universal compulsory education
   
   
8. ■The need for a universal auxiliary language
   
   
9. ■Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics

Are the above a call for one religion, government, education, language a call for the best one currently available or the Baha'is view?

Would one religion such as Christianity, language such as English and so ob satisfy Baha'is?

Obedience to government means no one can object to what the government decrees, even if it's lock up all Baha'is.

 

[MNoBody]

I see the potential of man is unlimited, but it first requires a unity of mind and purpose.

"The hallmark of this approaching age of maturity is the unification of the human race. Shoghi Effendi writes that, while unity “of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and fully established” world-encompassing unity is “the goal towards which a harassed humanity is striving.” In another passage, he refers to “the inauguration of a world civilization such as no mortal eye hath ever beheld or human mind conceived.” He asks: “Who is it that can imagine the lofty standard which such a civilization, as it unfolds itself, is destined to attain? Who can measure the heights to which human intelligence, liberated from its shackles, will soar? Who can visualize the realms which the human spirit, vitalized by the outpouring light of Bahá’u’lláh, shining in the plenitude of its glory, will discover?”

Regards Tony

thanks, Tony.
this kind of thinking for me shows people seeking to build something together...which would have the elements of a just society, which is in line with the Noachide concept of building a "Just" society, which is on the whole far more appealing than living in a barbarous world.
Like the centaur that aims their bow to the stars.
I appreciate any human that has this as their ambition and actually does something to reflect those values.
So many really do not seem to give a rip...
and it matters not to me how that human may have become that way, through whatever religion, or even no religion,
whatever worked to help that one become this way, well, it served some useful purpose then.

 

[CG Didymus]

TBH, I had not really heard about Baha’i until I came here. Most people, I would say, don’t have a clue who you are or what you believe.....but coming here and listening to your views, I have to wonder how Baha’i can claim Jesus as part of their belief system, and how you can claim all the prophets from other faiths are somehow from the same God who demanded that his worshippers have “no other gods but him” (Exodus 20:3)......all I can say is that “the god of this world” would love you to believe that it doesn’t matter what god you worship (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).....because all worship that does not go to the true God, goes to his adversary by default. He is the only other ‘wannabe god’ in existence.

But it’s an invitation only arrangement (John 6:65) The invitation is from Jesus and his Father alone.

What better way to hoodwink a population than to convince them that their enemy does not really exist.

Agreed, 100%

What greater choice do we have, than to know the enemy is our own self.

Who told you that? Jesus said that the devil is a real entity.

JW's and most all Conservative Christians are not on the same page with Baha'is. And since Baha'is have their own interpretations of the Bible than Christians, they often do a dance all around the things you are saying... like to say he agrees 100%? No, I don't know why more Baha'is aren't honest about their beliefs. They say that Jesus is physically dead and his body has rotted away. He didn't come back to life. And there is no real spirit being called Satan, the devil. Jesus, himself, is not coming back, but Baha'is say that their prophet is the "return of the Christ spirit."

I ask them time and time again, when does Christ return before or after all the trials and tribulations of the end times? Their prophet came and went over a hundred years ago and there are still "Woes" and judgements happening to the people of the Earth. Is that the way the NT says is will go down? 'Cause I don't see it. The Book of Revelation has Jesus coming and destroying evil and establishing his kingdom. Baha'is have laws and an administrative order that will eventually lead to peace and harmony and the unity of all people. For me, the signs of the times could allow for either one to be true or both of them to be just more religious promises that never come true.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bahá’í International Community plays an advisory role on many UN bodies such as UNICEF, the Multi-Faith Advisory Council, etc and many of its ideas and concepts have been adopted by the UN and spread throughout all the nations of the world. The unity of mankind, oneness of religion, the status of women, the need for an auxiliary universal language, independent investigation of truth, harmony between science and religion, world peace, world disarmament, an international tribunal, a just world order. These are things needed today but yet to be achieved. The emergence of multi cultural and interfaith can be traced back to Baha’u’llah’s Words and I can provide them, with Baha’is quietly promoting these concepts in a non violent, non political manner, without resorting to things like street protests etc. Breaking down prejudices of race, religion and nationality is done through education alone.

Many of Bahá’u’llah’s ideas have been adopted by many countries around the world, being unaware that their actual source was Baha’u’llah Himself.

In this age therefore, I would argue that the Bahá’í Faith is the most influential driving force for change on our planet, not through numbers, but with ideas and concepts relevant to today’s needs, such as the oneness and equality of humankind and that all the major religions are true.

But only one who is fully cognisant with His Writings and Teachings can truly understand and fully appreciate this fact.

Baha’is took part in the formation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights with even some of their wording directly incorporated into the document. For anyone to dismiss the universal influence of Baha’u’llah, I maintain, is unlikely to be fully aware of His teachings and when they first appeared and that they were revolutionary at the time. (29th century)

We focus on the positive which doesn’t often make the news. For instance the blacks lives matters movement is just recent but because of the nature of their activities, are reported all over the world, whereas Baha’is focus on ‘racial harmony’ for over a hundred years is largely ignored as it’s not sensational news. So although we are not overturning cars and setting them alight, we are creating racial harmony.


Bahá’i Holy Places in Haifa and the Western Galilee

Reflections From A Baha'i | A Brief History of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - The Community Word

https://www.bic.org/sites/default/files/pdf/un75_20201020.pdf

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Plan of Action Advanced Copy.pdf

Hey, how are you doing. You know I live between San Francisco and Sacramento and I never hear anything about the Baha'i Faith. So like in your city, what has been going on for the last few years? What teaching projects have you guys done? How many firesides and other outreaches are going on to teach people about the Faith? In these last few years how many seekers have there been in your city? How many have become Baha'is? How many are active in the community? Oh, and in fact, how Baha'is are there in your city and approximately, how many are active. Thanks,

 

[CG Didymus]

That 5 million figure is debatable. I'd put it closer to a million. For new readers: Baha'is claim to have 2 million adherents in India, while the Indian census showed less than 5000, last time it was done. Bahai's have quite a reputation for exaggerating their numbers and their impact.

I wonder... If, at one time, the Baha'is had people sign declaration cards and therefore, "become" Baha'is in India... What happened to them? Each community must know how many people actually show up on their feast nights? Where are the rest?

 

[MNoBody]

every generation has a percentage of people who were utterly convinced in their own minds that whatever "prophesy" they had accepted was certainly portending to their time.
A very common vanity.
At least that is what the cultural anthropologists report.

 

[CG Didymus]

They want non-Baha'is to unite, and what many of them don't seem to understand is that you tend to antagonize people by proselytizing, at least on this forum, so maybe some of them achieve some sort of "unity in diversity" indeed by antagonizing many people of all kinds of religions at the same time.

Of course everybody has the right to promote their religion, but from what I've seen on this forum, their strategy hasn't proved yet to be successful.

Do you feel as if Baha'i know and respect your beliefs?

 

[Vinayaka]

I wonder... If, at one time, the Baha'is had people sign declaration cards and therefore, "become" Baha'is in India... What happened to them? Each community must know how many people actually show up on their feast nights? Where are the rest?

I have no idea how it all came about ... where they got those numbers. On google maps I could only fine 5 Baha'i Centers in the entirety of India. Most certainly the fact that they don't drop[ you from their rolls unless you write a resignation letter doesn't help. I'm sure many people that leave don't even bother to do that, they just leave quietly. But many small Christian churches still keep those lists, despite people moving on. It's a record of church baptisms. They would still have an accurate account of 'actives' though.

I think there's this false notion that you're more legitimate, the bigger you are, in proselytizing religions. They assume that people are sheep, and since lots of other sheep joined, it validates it somehow. I think that probably even works for some, but not so much for the free thinkers of today, due to the internet.

 

[Sirona]

Do you feel as if Baha'i know and respect your beliefs?

This is a very tricky question. The question of whether Baha'i actually do respect other people's faiths has been discussed back and forth in this forum, with diverging results depending on whether you ask a Baha'i or a non-Baha'i. In another thread I wrote that Baha'i "accept" other faiths, "but only at their own terms and conditions". I feel they could be cherry-picking what they like about a particular god or religious character, or what is in coherence with their doctrine until the god or religious character is completely distorted with regard to how the original religion views said god. For example, they agree with Jesus promising the Holy Ghost (because they believe the Holy Ghost is Baha'ullah) but they don't agree with Jesus rising from the dead because Baha'ullah didn't rise from the dead and so, if they didn't "re-interpret" Jesus, it would make Baha'ullah look inferior, so they say Jesus is "just a man" like Baha'ullah is.

For the sake of clarity, I don't believe in Jesus actually rising from the dead, but I acknowledge that there is a "story/plotline of Jesus" like there is a story of Hamlet or a story of Krishna, and that said stories can be discussed. For the "story of Jesus", the element of resurrection is viewed "essential". If I take out the essential part of the Jesus story but hide this fact/reveal it only after special inquiry, then in my eyes I dupe or manipulate the other (Jesus believer) by letting them erroneously believe that we believe "the same", which often leads to the Jesus believer trusting me, because it's known that "a common belief" strenghtens the building of trust between strangers.

Now, to make a long story short, as for my belief in Hinduism and particularly in Krishna, I found the knowledge of many Baha'is in RF about it rudimentary and often false. What annoys me in particular is that they claim gods like Shiva or Krishna were mortal men (to get them in line with Baha'ullah, who was a historical, mortal man), and then (ignorantly?) believe they made an especially tolerant, smart or respectful statement by making this claim. There is a verse in the Bhagavad-Gita saying that fools mock Krishna by considering him a mortal man when he descends from the heavenly realm, although he clearly and constantly refers to himself as God with a capital G in the scriptures. If I was a religious hardliner, I could take this verse from the Gita and scream blasphemy. I don't because I think Krishna is capable of defending himself and the Baha'is have the right to view Krishna as they please. However I think you cannot claim to respect Krishna (the Hindu way) while at the same time claiming he was a mere mortal man. By doing so, you dupe or manipulate the (Hindu) other. As having "a common religion" is a good way to establish trust between strangers, I wouldn't trust anyone who uses such methods. It is not my right to accuse anyone of anything, and maybe I'm totally wrong but in Baha'i related discussions, I have seen plenty of double-speak, which has made me wary.

In short, I don't care whether they respect my religion (as they are not obliged to). However, I just don't believe/trust them when they say they do.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That 5 million figure is debatable. I'd put it closer to a million. For new readers: Baha'is claim to have 2 million adherents in India, while the Indian census showed less than 5000, last time it was done. Bahai's have quite a reputation for exaggerating their numbers and their impact.

It is indeed debatable and something we’ve discussed at length. However it isn’t just the Baha’is who will refer to 5 million but scholars of religion too.