Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
I don't think the Koran denies Jesus's death. The resurrection is not mentioned to the best of my knowledge.
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similarities between islam and christianity
- Thread starter muslim21
- Start date
I don't think the Koran denies Jesus's death. The resurrection is not mentioned to the best of my knowledge.
kai
ragamuffin
the Quran does not deny jesus's death he was a motal man, just on the cross.
[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. [4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. [4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"Instead God raised him to Him. . . ."
John: 19, 28-30
"28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. "
Regards,
Scott
kai
ragamuffin
Scott did jesus die on the cross and was resurected or not ? its a simple question yes or no
kai
ragamuffin
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Strictly from the Gospel account it is not really possible to tell if Jesus was "really, most, sincerely dead" when He was taken down from the cross. Did He die as a result of the crucifixion? Without doubt He did.
There was a Resurrection on Sunday morning without doubt. In my estimation there were two resurrections on that morning, and people tend to celebrate the resurrection of lesser importance.
Abdu'l Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 240
"1Question.--What is the meaning of Christ's resurrection after three days?
2Answer.--The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ's coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: "For I came down from heaven"; and also in verse 42 we find: "And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?" Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
3Observe that it is said, "The Son of man is in heaven," while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
4Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
5Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ's resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
6Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it."
So an answer of yes or no? The Resurrection is a Mystery and no one will fully understand it.
Regards,
Scott
kai
ragamuffin
thank you for the Baha'i version of events Scott, as depicted by `Abdu'l-Bahá , it is very interesting but i don't know enough of your prophets to comment, i have taken on board the fact that you have little in common with Christians and will no doubt with your permission question you further on Baha'i thought but i am interested at the moment in Muslim Christian views.
nawab
Active Member
prophet Jesus did not die on the cross and yet he was a mortal being. like you and me. God raised him up because among thouse prophet of God, he was the only one who was associated with Divinity and claims of son of God. thats why before the day of judgement he will come and cry
Oh Allah, Bear me Witness, I have never claimed i was your son.
a similar message is said in the bible. Matthew 7: 22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
then will I profess unto them, depart from me, I never knew you, ye men of iniquity(sinful)
May i ask you will Jesus tell that depart from here , Jesus never knew them, men of iniquity. who prophesied in Jesus, Who do miracles and wonders in the name of Jesus, I dont think it is the Jews, Hindus, or Muslims. these faiths do not do in the name of Jesus, the christians only do that in the name of Jesus. anything they do in the name of Jesus. Just imagine at the end Jesus will say depart from here ye that work iniquity.
May peace be on those who receive guidiance
Oh Allah, Bear me Witness, I have never claimed i was your son.
a similar message is said in the bible. Matthew 7: 22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
then will I profess unto them, depart from me, I never knew you, ye men of iniquity(sinful)
May i ask you will Jesus tell that depart from here , Jesus never knew them, men of iniquity. who prophesied in Jesus, Who do miracles and wonders in the name of Jesus, I dont think it is the Jews, Hindus, or Muslims. these faiths do not do in the name of Jesus, the christians only do that in the name of Jesus. anything they do in the name of Jesus. Just imagine at the end Jesus will say depart from here ye that work iniquity.
May peace be on those who receive guidiance
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Not the "Son" of God in a progenitorial sense. But as a title of respect. Spirit of God is closer to the Qur'anic sense, Son of Man is what Jesus called Himself on every occasion.
Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott
kai
ragamuffin
thanks once again Scott for giving us your view of the Muslim view of Jesus, below i beleive is the mainstream Christian view
Christians, believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah (or Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament, the part of their scriptures they have in common with Judaism. To Christians, Jesus Christ is a teacher, the model of a pious life, the revealer of God, the mediator of salvation and the saviour who suffered, died and was resurrected in order to bring about salvation from sin for all. Christians maintain that Jesus ascended into heaven and most denominations teach that Jesus will judge the living and the dead, granting everlasting life to his followers. Christians describe the New Testament account of Jesus' ministry as the Gospel, or "good news".
The Trinity is often regarded as an essential doctrine of mainstream Christianity. The most common understanding of the Holy Trinity,
as espoused in the Nicene Creed, is one God who exists in three Persons – Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – who are coequal, co-eternal, of the same substance. "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" represents both the immanence and transcendence of God. God is believed to be infinite and God's presence may be perceived through the actions of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
wiki
Christians, believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah (or Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament, the part of their scriptures they have in common with Judaism. To Christians, Jesus Christ is a teacher, the model of a pious life, the revealer of God, the mediator of salvation and the saviour who suffered, died and was resurrected in order to bring about salvation from sin for all. Christians maintain that Jesus ascended into heaven and most denominations teach that Jesus will judge the living and the dead, granting everlasting life to his followers. Christians describe the New Testament account of Jesus' ministry as the Gospel, or "good news".
The Trinity is often regarded as an essential doctrine of mainstream Christianity. The most common understanding of the Holy Trinity,
as espoused in the Nicene Creed, is one God who exists in three Persons – Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – who are coequal, co-eternal, of the same substance. "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" represents both the immanence and transcendence of God. God is believed to be infinite and God's presence may be perceived through the actions of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
wiki
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry you're knickers are in a twist with me, Kai. However, I will comment as I please when I please. Feel free to exercise the ignore button, or just put up with it.
Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Baha`i World Faith, Abdu'l Baha section, pp.257-260
The unity which is productive of unlimited results is first a unity of mankind which recognizes that all are sheltered beneath the overshadowing glory of the All-Glorious; that all are servants of one God; for all breathe the same atmosphere, live upon the same earth, move beneath the same heavens, receive effulgence from the same sun and are under the protection of one God. This is the most great unity, and its results are lasting if humanity adheres to it; but mankind has hitherto violated it, adhering to sectarian or other limited unities such as racial, patriotic or unity of self-interests; therefore no great results have been forthcoming. Nevertheless it is certain that the radiance and favors of God are encompassing, minds have developed, perceptions have become acute, sciences and arts are widespread and capacity exists for the proclamation and promulgation of the real and ultimate unity of mankind which will bring forth marvelous results. It will reconcile all religions, make warring nations loving, cause hostile kings to become friendly and bring peace and happiness to the human world. It will cement together the Orient and Occident, remove forever the foundations of war and upraise the ensign of the Most Great Peace. These limited unities are therefore signs of that great unity which will make all the human family one by being productive of the attractions of conscience in mankind.
3Another unity is the spiritual unity which emanates from the breaths of the Holy Spirit. This is greater than the unity of mankind. Human unity or solidarity may be likened to the body whereas unity from the breaths of the Holy Spirit is the spirit animating the body. This is a perfect unity. It creates such a condition in mankind that each one will make sacrifices for the other and the utmost desire will be to forfeit life and all that pertains to it in behalf of another's good. This is the unity which existed among the disciples of His Holiness Jesus Christ and bound together the prophets and holy souls of the past. It is the unity which through the influence of the divine spirit is permeating the Bahá'ís so that each offers his life for the other and strives with all sincerity to attain his good-pleasure. This is the unity which caused twenty thousand people in Írán to give their lives in love and devotion to it. It made the Báb the target of a thousand arrows and caused Bahá'u'lláh to suffer exile and imprisonment forty years. This unity is the very spirit of the body of the world. It is impossible for the body of the world to become quickened with life without its vivification. His Holiness Jesus Christ--may my life be a sacrifice to Him!--promulgated this unity among mankind. Every soul who believed in Jesus Christ became revivified and resuscitated through this spirit, attained to the zenith of eternal glory, realized the life everlasting, experienced the second birth and rose to the acme of good fortune. "
The unity which is productive of unlimited results is first a unity of mankind which recognizes that all are sheltered beneath the overshadowing glory of the All-Glorious; that all are servants of one God; for all breathe the same atmosphere, live upon the same earth, move beneath the same heavens, receive effulgence from the same sun and are under the protection of one God. This is the most great unity, and its results are lasting if humanity adheres to it; but mankind has hitherto violated it, adhering to sectarian or other limited unities such as racial, patriotic or unity of self-interests; therefore no great results have been forthcoming. Nevertheless it is certain that the radiance and favors of God are encompassing, minds have developed, perceptions have become acute, sciences and arts are widespread and capacity exists for the proclamation and promulgation of the real and ultimate unity of mankind which will bring forth marvelous results. It will reconcile all religions, make warring nations loving, cause hostile kings to become friendly and bring peace and happiness to the human world. It will cement together the Orient and Occident, remove forever the foundations of war and upraise the ensign of the Most Great Peace. These limited unities are therefore signs of that great unity which will make all the human family one by being productive of the attractions of conscience in mankind.
3Another unity is the spiritual unity which emanates from the breaths of the Holy Spirit. This is greater than the unity of mankind. Human unity or solidarity may be likened to the body whereas unity from the breaths of the Holy Spirit is the spirit animating the body. This is a perfect unity. It creates such a condition in mankind that each one will make sacrifices for the other and the utmost desire will be to forfeit life and all that pertains to it in behalf of another's good. This is the unity which existed among the disciples of His Holiness Jesus Christ and bound together the prophets and holy souls of the past. It is the unity which through the influence of the divine spirit is permeating the Bahá'ís so that each offers his life for the other and strives with all sincerity to attain his good-pleasure. This is the unity which caused twenty thousand people in Írán to give their lives in love and devotion to it. It made the Báb the target of a thousand arrows and caused Bahá'u'lláh to suffer exile and imprisonment forty years. This unity is the very spirit of the body of the world. It is impossible for the body of the world to become quickened with life without its vivification. His Holiness Jesus Christ--may my life be a sacrifice to Him!--promulgated this unity among mankind. Every soul who believed in Jesus Christ became revivified and resuscitated through this spirit, attained to the zenith of eternal glory, realized the life everlasting, experienced the second birth and rose to the acme of good fortune. "
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Hehe, and we all know how widely accepted the Baha'i views are on these matters too, Scott. Marginal comes to mind, but insignificant would probably be more accurate.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Is knicker-twisting contagious?
I thought you were sure that you had a religion of one, yourself.
Regards.
Scott
kai
ragamuffin
now, now Scott, i am just trying to investigate the OP, what are you doing? there is another thread on the similarities in Islam and Bahai that may interest you.
i do actually enjoy our little chats but i am intersted in the OP.
and by the way i am going commando
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
What do you mean. That is exactly what he is called in the the Quran (Al Masih Isa ibn Maryum) - (The Messiah Isa (Yasu - Yeshua, son of Mary).
What's your point? Go in the middle of a crowd of christians with a T-shirt on that says..... "There's no god but ALLAH and Jesus was only his messenger" and see what happens to you.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I think all that myrrh (which can be used to stop bleeding) and aloe (well we know with the many products on the market what Aloe does - it's used to heal cuts) he didn't die.
In one scripture Joseph puts this ointment on him and wrapped him in linen (kind of like we do for burn victims to help them heal and prevent infections).
If this process was done by him why were the women coming to the tomb two days later to perform the same function?
From my reading of Jewish burial practices, once the body is wrapped it is not disturbed for a whole year then the bones are to be placed in an ossurary. Additionally, the burial customs do not allow women to prepare the bodies of dead men. Women perform the rights on women and men perform the rights on men.
I suspect the women were coming back to anoint (rub) him to help him continue to heal but found that he was not there.
Yeshua goes to the disciples and says touch me and see that it is me. Touch my hands and my feet. See I told you it was me and I was alive because spirits don't have "flesh" and "bone".....I'm hungry...do you have any food here? So his followers gave him fish and a honeycomb to eat.
So maybe there is some credit to the muslim claim that Yeshua did not die on the cross but it was made to appear that way. It appears the bible does hint to this as well. What about what he said about Jonah?
AS Jonah was in the belly of the fish so shall the son of man be. How was Jonah? Was he dead or was he alive? The scripture shows he was certainly alive in the fish. He had begged and prayed to his god to spare him from dying just as Yeshua did..........
So looking at these two parallel stories the answer would have to be....no....
ayani
member
that's an interesting point. must something be new, confusing, or intricate to warrant attention?
i'm also hesitant to leap into the "Muhammed is in the Bible!!!" debate. is he mentioned there? perhaps. i've read the verses perhaps referring to them, and i'm willing to leave other people of faith to believe what they will about those verses, and not push it. why? because quite simply, i'm not sure, and i'd sure resent their drawing similar conclusions about the Quran.
also, i don't believe that God is *limited* to the Quran, in the way that many Christians would argue God's words or messages or truths being limited to the words of the Bible.
Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the Words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help. 18:109
Scott, i was explaining to a Christian friend the other night my understanding of the Baha'i view of Jesus' person, and i think something kind of lit up for him. when i explained who i believed Jesus to be, and how i would respond to the term "holy spirit", he also agreed with that, though we're "supposed" to be coming from very different theological perspectives.
it gives me hope. dialogue is a great blessing, and we should use such opportunities to talk in a respectful, open-minded way.