Slavery in the Bible, (and Quran)

[Audie]

In Islam that which is not expressly forbidden is permitted.

You do know why i said what i did?

 

[sooda]

You do know why i said what i did?

I think so...

 

[The Reverend Bob]

People believe what they want..

But the truth

 

[SA Huguenot]

A lot of effort went into this and obviously its not correct to change the words in the bible trying to make a point. But I have to say, this discussion seems to be a lot like a discussion about what type of slavery is the best one.

You then end up saying this in your conclusion: But the overriding truth in this whole epoch is the fact that the Bible NEVER CONDONED SLAVERY! If anyone, atheist or Muslim scholar makes such a claim, I don’t even have to be the one calling him a deceiver!

That is absolutely rubbish, if it didn't condoned it, why all the rules? Why not a single law saying, "Your must not own slaves" end of story. To me you do a good job at highlighting the verses and then you do as all others Christians do, that have to defend it. You bend and twist it so much that it almost sound like the slaves actually had it much better than everyone else, even to the point where others should be jealous of them. They were slaves like in all others nations around them had them at the time. And God did allow it, as he made the law according to the bible.

And yes I am an atheist deceiver, but it doesn't make what you say true, except that its obvious not ok for this muslim person to change the words of the bible, to make it appear worse than it is, just as it is for you to claim that the bible doesn't condoned slavery. That is clearly false as well.

You missed out on the whole point on what slavery is in the Bible.
We will call it a Butler today.
Your perception that because the word slave is used, it must be slavery as we know it from 200 years ago is a distorted one.
You obviously did not read my PDF attachment, and continue on your own idea on what the Bible say, in stead of just for once in your life go an find out for yourself.
Sorry for the harsh words, but sometimes I need to speak to harsh people as they do.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Actually I have read what the Bible says about slavery.
If you are looking for an unbiased article on it I would suggest that The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia is a fairly well cited article.

Perhaps if you would take the ten minutes it would take to read the Wikipedia article referred to then we can deconstruct it together to find whether or not the Bible permits slavery?

Accepted, as long as you read my attached PDF.
You will then realise that by comparing your summary with what the Bible reveals in what I collected from it, Wiki has less than half of what the Bible describes.
So which document will we accept, the one with half the truth, or the orher with every description of Slavery?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Actually I have read what the Bible says about slavery.
If you are looking for an unbiased article on it I would suggest that The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia is a fairly well cited article.

Perhaps if you would take the ten minutes it would take to read the Wikipedia article referred to then we can deconstruct it together to find whether or not the Bible permits slavery?

By the way, why would anyone go to Wiki, when we have the Bible?
perhaps youve also never read the Bible, but like to critisize it with the use of other opinions?

 

[SA Huguenot]

I read Dan Mellis' thread: Slavery in the Bible, and I just can not believe that anyone will make a claim on this topic without actually reading what the Bible says.

Have YOU actually read what's in the bible? Every bible I've ever read clearly states that God condones owning other people as property. He tells his followers who they can enslave, that they can keep their slaves for their entire lives and give them to their children as property, and that you can beat your slaves, just as long as they don't die as a result within a couple of days.

I can't believe that anyone could possibly claim that God was opposed to slavery, unless they choose to completely ignore what the bible says God's Word is.

My dear friend.
I not only read the Bible, I read it more than 15 times and I summarised it too.
I also read and summarised the Quran, Hadith and Book of Mormon.
As you can see, I also make deep studies about what the Bible says on various topics.
if you read through my attached PDF on Slavery in the Bible, you will find 2 things.
1. I took every verse from the Bible that spoke about Slavery.
2. I did not make my own opinion on what the verses are saying, but simply elaborated on the contents thereoff.
Therefore, when someone comes to me and make a claim as you do, they are displaying to everyone that they :
1. Never wrote what I collected in a small document
2. and they never will accept what is written in the Bible, but will continue to accuse the Bible of something it never says!
3. they will quote what some website, or atheist says about Slavery, because it sounds better to themthat the Bible is bad, than that God condemns Slavery. It just has to be that way, because what else can Atheists and Muslims use when they want to attack Christians on the Bible.

Sorry guys, The Bible does not condone slavery, and it is the only ancient writing that actually condemns a Slave monger.
So, for whatever reason you dont like the Bible, this claim of the Bible promoted slavery is one you can not use without being caught out as a LIAR.

Try something else.

 

[Shia Islam]

My dear Muslim friend.
Please go and read my attachment on my post, and you will see that your own quran says:
…

[12] Q 4: 15 Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women – bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way.

I started reading your post, but then I found it clear that your anti-Islam sentiment is influencing your judgement..

You are also posting Quranic verses that you don't understand..

Your post is full of factual errors..

If you want to post a quranic verse, you need to read about its Tafseer (interrelation)..

Although Muslims are called to read the Quran, they have to take its interpretation from the prophet, or from those the prophet approved to interpret the Quran…

Here is one example of your not understanding what you are posting:

There is a bit of compassion in the Quran for the female slave where the Muslims are not allowed to force the female slave in prostitution if she wants to remain chaste, but it is very vague. However, look closely to what Allah says:

"don’t force a female slave into prostitution to gain a nice living if she wants to remain chaste, but if you do force her into prostitution to receive worldly gain for a comfortable life, Allah is all forgiving!" Q 24: 33.

It is not vague at all..If you don’t know Arabic, you need to refer to books that will help you to understand the verse..

It says: "if you do force her into prostitution to receive worldly gain for a comfortable life, Allah is all forgiving (for her)"

How "strange" for you to think that Allah is saying: "don't force her into prostitution, but if you do force her then it is ok! I am forgiving!!"

I don't want to go into your other misunderstandings..

Let me instead summaries what I want to say on the topic in the following:

Slavery is a human problem before the advent of Islam. Islam came and slavery was there, where a master has control over his slave..It is so ugly..Specifically from the view of Islam where God teaches us that we are all equal and we all came from one Father, Adam, and one mother, Eve. We are slaves only of Allah..We are not slaves of one another.

One of the main reasons why ancient Arabs in Mecca rejected Islam and waged wars against it is its stance from slavery..

Once Islam came, and after it established itself in Medina, all of the slaves of the unbelievers were called to accept Islam (based on the undeniable proofs of its truthfulness) and leave their masters, join Islam and become free..

In other situations, Islam has also provided many other doors for slaves to be free, many of them is written in your post, however you tried to deny the obvious..

Also, In Islam, it is clear that the slaves are equal to their masters in humanity..

And a slave will get the same amount of money with his master from as a stipend from the Islamic government..

For all of this reasons, the salves were inclined to join Islam..and to convert..

Among the first ones was Bilal, the Mu'azzin (prayer caller of the prophet)..

Who used to be tortured by his unbelieving master to force him to leave Islam..

And then the Muslims bought him form the unbelievers and freed him..

Islam established the culture of freeing the slaves..

And guaranteed those who free the slaves a huge return in the hereafter..

That is why, as Islam rises slavery dies..

Note: I am very busy these days, that is why I may not have chance to adequately interact with the thread..

 

[danieldemol]

Accepted, as long as you read my attached PDF.
You will then realise that by comparing your summary with what the Bible reveals in what I collected from it, Wiki has less than half of what the Bible describes.
So which document will we accept, the one with half the truth, or the orher with every description of Slavery?

It is an odd request, as if the Bible doesn’t permit slavery there should be no descriptions of slavery in it, other than observations of the non-Jewish and non-Christian world.

That being said I shall take the time to read your PDF

 

[danieldemol]

By the way, why would anyone go to Wiki, when we have the Bible?
perhaps youve also never read the Bible, but like to critisize it with the use of other opinions?

I have read the Bible from cover to cover, but it is quite useless to say the Bible permits* slavery because the Bible says so between two covers, far more useful to refer the questioner to a summary which to a reasonable degree reflects my opinion on the subject.

*edit changed word condones to permits

 

[SA Huguenot]

I started reading your post, but then I found it clear that your anti-Islam sentiment is influencing your judgement..

You are also posting Quranic verses that you don't understand..

Your post is full of factual errors..

If you want to post a quranic verse, you need to read about its Tafseer (interrelation)..

Although Muslims are called to read the Quran, they have to take its interpretation from the prophet, or from those the prophet approved to interpret the Quran…

Here is one example of your not understanding what you are posting:

It is not vague at all..If you don’t know Arabic, you need to refer to books that will help you to understand the verse..

It says: "if you do force her into prostitution to receive worldly gain for a comfortable life, Allah is all forgiving (for her)"

Note: I am very busy these days, that is why I may not have chance to adequately interact with the thread..

My dear fellow brother.
If I were to tell a lie in quoting the Quran, I will be the first to apologise.
Lets see what you are using as an example where I am misquoting the Quran.
"if you do force her into prostitution to receive worldly gain for a comfortable life, Allah is all forgiving (for her)"
But why do you allow yourself to add words to the Quran?
That is not in the Quran at all!
Go to Corpus Quran to get the correct translation, and forget your Tafseer that are a whitewash of the Quran my friend.
Here is the link so you can see I am not somehow "Misunderstanding" what Allah is "clearly" telling Muhammad how to treat his sex slaves.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
The verse say: And Whoever compels them, then indeed, Allah after their compulsion is oft forgiving, Most Mercyfull.
Now, you can Tafseer as much as you want to, the verse in Arabic does not say Allah will forgive the female slaves in posession of a Muslim.
it says "CLEARLY" Whoever compells them, Allah is oft forgiving!

Secondly, If you read the whole verse, you will see that Allah says, do not compel your female slaves into prostitution so you can gain money...But if they were compeled, Allah is all mercyfull and forgiving.
Allah speaks to Muhammad and the men who owns female captiveshere, not to the girls who were pimped!
Only if you insert the words "To Them" does the meaning change from the Slave keeper to the girl who were forced into prostitution.
Anyhow, if you say I am Anti- Islam, you are correct.
The Quran is the most hatefull book on earth, and as you yourself witness, a book where Allah told Muhammad to decimate countries, take female captives, and in your hadith Muslims were instructed to rape these women.

Anyhow, I dont care about the Quran at all, but proved that the Bible condemns slavery, contrary to what Muslims and Atheists teaches.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I have read the Bible from cover to cover, but it is quite useless to say the Bible condones slavery because the Bible says so between two covers, far more useful to refer the questioner to a summary which to a reasonable degree reflects my opinion on the subject.

Pal, You dont have to read the summary of all the verses from the Bible on Slavery.
You also dont have to drink the water when taken to the river.
Your choice.

 

[blü 2]

I read Dan Mellis' thread: Slavery in the Bible, and I just can not believe that anyone will make a claim on this topic without actually reading what the Bible says.
No, Dan! It is wrong to even attempt to blame slavery on the Bible, and God, if you never read the Bible for yourself pal!

On the one hand I don't know anyone who 'blames slavery on the bible'.

However, both the Tanakh and the NT take slavery for granted as an ordinary incident of society, and accordingly the Tanakh sets out rules for buying and selling, bonking and freeing, your slaves; while Paul tells slaves to be good slaves, and neither he nor Jesus utters a word against it.

The African slave trade was run in no small part by people who were Islamic, and their clients were in general both Islamic and Christian.

Christian slave owners quite correctly quoted the bible in support of the practice right up to and into the American Civil War.

I attach the PDF study to allow you to read through it, and to see if you can prove me wrong.

See above for a quick overview of the actual historical position.

 

[SA Huguenot]

On the one hand I don't know anyone who 'blames slavery on the bible'.

However, both the Tanakh and the NT take slavery for granted as an ordinary incident of society, and accordingly the Tanakh sets out rules for buying and selling, bonking and freeing, your slaves; while Paul tells slaves to be good slaves, and neither he nor Jesus utters a word against it.

The African slave trade was run in no small part by people who were Islamic, and their clients were in general both Islamic and Christian.

Christian slave owners quite correctly quoted the bible in support of the practice right up to and into the American Civil War.
See above for a quick overview of the actual historical position.

Well, I agree with everything except for this:
You say: "However, both the Tanakh and the NT take slavery for granted as an ordinary incident of society, and accordingly the Tanakh sets out rules for buying and selling, bonking and freeing, your slaves; while Paul tells slaves to be good slaves, and neither he nor Jesus utters a word against it."

tell you what.
Show me where you read what you claim because I see this!
(Deuteronomy 24:7) If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.
And paul to Timothy say:
1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men-stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Timothy 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
And what about this?
Because Israel was a stranger in Egypt, God instructed them never to oppress the stranger in their land. Please note that YHWH says that Israel was a stranger in Egypt. They were underslavery and were not Egyptians. The stranger in the land of Israel is therefore not Israelites. (Exodus 22: 21[1] / Exodus 23: 9[2])
The stranger, non-Israelite, and the Israelite are both decreed to adhere to the same law. Both will be treated equally under the regulatory law of the Government. (Numbers 15: 16[3])
[1] Exo22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
[2] Exo23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
[3] Num15:16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Now I dont know where you came about the thinking that :"accordingly the Tanakh sets out rules for buying and selling, bonking and freeing, your slaves; while Paul tells slaves to be good slaves, and neither he nor Jesus utters a word against it."
Do you agree that what you said is not true?
Now why telling such a lie?
perhaps because you did not read what I wrote and believes what Atheist websites tells you?
Please explain!

 

[Nimos]

You missed out on the whole point on what slavery is in the Bible.
We will call it a Butler today.
Your perception that because the word slave is used, it must be slavery as we know it from 200 years ago is a distorted one.
You obviously did not read my PDF attachment, and continue on your own idea on what the Bible say, in stead of just for once in your life go an find out for yourself.
Sorry for the harsh words, but sometimes I need to speak to harsh people as they do.

I read your PDF and don't worry I didn't find your reply harsh

But lets go through some of it.

First can we agree that this is a good explanation of what slavery is?

The condition of being legally owned by someone else, or the system in which some people are owned by others

This is from the PDF:
1) Slavery was institutionalised to save poor family from starvation.

Reading Deuteronomy 15: 11 and Leviticus 25: 47 , we see that God says there will always be poor people in Israel. It is a sociological fact that no one can dispute.

So your argument is that "Slavery was institutionalized to save poor families from starvation" This is completely out of context with the actual text, as you make no differentiation between people here. But lets look at what the first verse you link to as proof actually means when read in correct context.

-----------------------
Deuteronomy 15
1 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.
2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite. They shall not require payment from anyone among their own people, because the Lord’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.
3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your fellow Israelite owes you.
4 However, there need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you,
5 if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.
6 For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.
8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.
9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.
-----------------------

This have nothing to do with slavery, its about how you ought to treat your own people, and help those in needs. Because the Israelites are the chosen people of God and therefore they should help each other.

Then lets take a look at Leviticus 25: 47, again in correct context of the actual text. (I will have to choose specific verses, as it would be to much to quote it all here. But you have to include 8 - 54, so you can go read that in full.) But again who is God talking about here?

Leviticus 25
-----------------------
14 “‘If you sell land to any of your own people or buy land from them, do not take advantage of each other.
17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.
25 “‘If one of your fellow Israelites becomes poor and sells some of their property, their nearest relative is to come and redeem what they have sold.
26 If, however, there is no one to redeem it for them but later on they prosper and acquire sufficient means to redeem it themselves,
27 they are to determine the value for the years since they sold it and refund the balance to the one to whom they sold it; they can then go back to their own property.
28 But if they do not acquire the means to repay, what was sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and they can then go back to their property.
35 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you. (Notice that this is not referring to slaves!! but people that might travel their lands.)
39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as SLAVES.
40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.
41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors.
42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.
43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
47 “‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan,
-----------------------

So this makes a clear distinction between Israelites and slaves. Its not the same. So when you write: 1) Slavery was institutionalised to save poor family from starvation. Then it is simply not what the bible say. It say that you as an Israelite should treat your own people who are poor with charity and openness and not as slaves. Because they are the chosen ones.

Now since it should be obvious that there is a huge differences in what God means when talking about slaves and Israelites, and that these are two completely different things. I will for now stop going further with what you have written, until you have commented on this. Because if you don't agree that this difference is actually there, then the rest of the verses about slavery makes little sense.

But why do you think God is so keen on making sure that Israelites are not sold or treated as slaves?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Now why would you say the Bible deemed Slavery lawfull?
Oh because you did not even read what the Bible says about the topic.
Dont you think it will be a wize thing to do before making incorrect accusations?

Where does the Bible say slavery isn't lawful?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You missed out on the whole point on what slavery is in the Bible.
We will call it a Butler today.
Your perception that because the word slave is used, it must be slavery as we know it from 200 years ago is a distorted one.
You obviously did not read my PDF attachment, and continue on your own idea on what the Bible say, in stead of just for once in your life go an find out for yourself.
Sorry for the harsh words, but sometimes I need to speak to harsh people as they do.

Did you just compare butlers to slaves? How embarrassing.
Come on man, you can do better.

 

[Nimos]

Did you just compare butlers to slaves? How embarrassing.
Come on man, you can do better.

It is actually to some degree true, but the problem is that he makes no difference between, what it means to be a slave compared to an Israelites. So everything just applies to whoever in a huge mixture of verses, which is not the case when you actually read the bible. So it appears as if slaves would be treated at least some what decent and other places like actual slaves

 

[SkepticThinker]

It is actually to some degree true, but the problem is that he makes no difference between, what it means to be a slave compared to an Israelites. So everything just applies to whoever in a huge mixture of verses, which is not the case when you actually read the bible. So it appears as if slaves would be treated at least some what decent and other places like actual slaves

It's only true if butlers are forced to become someone's property, which of course, they aren't. They are also paid for their work and are able to move about freely of their own volition, which also doesn't apply to slaves. Sorry but the comparison stinks.

 

[Nimos]

It's only true if butlers are forced to become someone's property, which of course, they aren't. They are also paid for their work and are able to move about freely of their own volition, which also doesn't apply to slaves. Sorry but the comparison stinks.

Yes of course the comparison is bad. As I said, because he mixes things together.

For instance this: Deuteronomy 15
12 Suppose any Hebrew men or women sell themselves to you. If they do, they will serve you for six years. Then in the seventh year you must let them go free.
13 But when you set them free, don’t send them away without anything to show for all their work.
14 Freely give them some animals from your flock. Also give them some of your grain and wine. The Lord your God has blessed you richly. Give to them as he has given to you.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. The Lord your God set you free. That’s why I’m giving you this command today.
16 But suppose your servant says to you, “I don’t want to leave you.” He loves you and your family. And you are taking good care of him.
17 Then take him to the door of your house. Poke a hole through his earlobe into the doorpost. And he will become your servant for life. Do the same with your female servant.
18 Don’t think you are being cheated when you set your servants free. After all, they have served you for six years. The service of each of them has been worth twice as much as the service of a hired worker. And the Lord your God will bless you in everything you do.

These are not rules for slaves, this is basically someone that you hire as a servant (A jew, not some random slave). So in that case your master is taking care of you or basically adopting you, it seems. So obviously for us this makes little sense, why someone would need to have their ear pierced. But anyway So lets compare it to later in Deuteronomy to see the difference.

Deuteronomy 20
10 Suppose you march up to attack a city. Before you attack it, offer to make peace with its people.
11 Suppose they accept your offer and open their gates. Then force all the people in the city to be your slaves. They will have to work for you.
12 But suppose they refuse your offer of peace and prepare for battle. Then surround that city. Get ready to attack it.
13 The Lord your God will hand it over to you. When he does, kill all the men with your swords.
14 But you can take the women and children for yourselves. You can also take the livestock and everything else in the city. What you have captured from your enemies you can use for yourselves. The Lord your God has given it to you.
15 That’s how you must treat all the cities far away from you. Those cities don’t belong to the nations that are nearby.

16 But what about the cities the Lord your God is giving you as your own? Kill everything that breathes in those cities.
17 Completely destroy them. Wipe out the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. That’s what the Lord your God commanded you to do.
18 If you don’t destroy them, they’ll teach you to do all the things the Lord hates. He hates the way they worship their gods. If you do those things, you will sin against the Lord your God.

So in 11) and 14) we are talking about slaves and I doubt they have the same rights as a Jewish servant that is talked about in Deuteronomy 15. 16) and 17) are not even worthy of becoming slaves, they should just be destroyed because God don't like what they are doing.

To me if one is to understand what slavery is about in the bible, you have to make a distinction between what "type" of people that the verses refer to with great care.