Slavery to Krishna?

[agorman]

Everywhere I read that the relationship that Krishna devotees aspire to is of eternal servitude. They make it seem like they end up being godslaves! However, in the months I've meditated with the Harinama and other Krishna mantras I felt my relationship with Him was more like a Father-son or friendship relationship. What do you think?

 

[Jainarayan]

It's not slavery at all, or servitude in the negative sense. It's something like taking a bullet for your buddy or brother because your love is so deep.

 

[agorman]

Sorry, I think the terminology you're using is odd/off topic.

No offense intended.

It's not slavery at all, or servitude in the negative sense. It's something like taking a bullet for your buddy or brother because your love is so deep.

So maybe just because the religion is SO old, what I read sometimes describes the ancient relationship of a king and his faithful slaves?

 

[Desert Snake]

No offense intended.

No, not at all. What I meant is that if you read the Bhagavad Gita with purports, it answers your OP question very succinctly, imo.

 

[Jainarayan]

So maybe just because the religion is SO old, what I read sometimes describes the ancient relationship of a king and his faithful slaves?

I don't think that's it. If I understand correctly, it grew out of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, which really isn't that old in the grand scheme of Hinduism. I could be wrong.

 

[Vinayaka]

'Slavery' is generally used as as a slave to God's will. It takes the individual's will, and ego out of the equation. So you take instructions from God, not your own individual ego. Since God is loving, caring, unselfish, etc., and if you listen to that, you become that way.

"What does God want me to do?" not .. "How will this benefit me?"

At least this is how I interpret it.

 

[agorman]

"What does God want me to do?" not .. "How will this benefit me?"

At least this is how I interpret it.

So it's Right Hand Path because although you preserve your individuality when you go to the celestial Vrindavan, it's still "Thy will be done"?

 

[Vinayaka]

So it's Right Hand Path because although you preserve your individuality when you go to the celestial Vrindavan, it's still "Thy will be done"?

I wouldn't know. I don't know much about Vaisnavism, and nothing at all about 'Right Hand path' or whatever that is.

I was just refelecting on how I'm a servant to Siva , and thought it might have some relevance, as we're cousins.

 

[agorman]

Maybe I didn't ask the right question. What I really want to know is if in case someone reaches the celestial Vrindavan, he or she will still have free will or he/she becomes as an angel that has no choice but to obey God's commands.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Maybe I didn't ask the right question. What I really want to know is if in case someone reaches the celestial Vrindavan, he or she will still have free will or he/she becomes as an angel that has no choice but to obey God's commands.

You are looking at it from a western mindset, therefore it is not valid. Have you read the Bhagavad gita ? The answer to your question lies there.

You cannot apply the western idea of "God""his kingdom" and "his angels" or "servants" on Hinduism. It is a complete different mindset that have almost nothing to do with the western or abrahamic God concept.

 

[agorman]

You are looking at it from a western mindset, therefore it is not valid. Have you read the Bhagavad gita ? The answer to your question lies there.

You cannot apply the western idea of "God""his kingdom" and "his angels" or "servants" on Hinduism. It is a complete different mindset that have almost nothing to do with the western or abrahamic God concept.

I see. I read it a few years back, but maybe I should read it again .

 

[Andal]

Vannakkam,

In Vaishnava tradition there are several different relationships we can have with Sri Hari. The first is the attitude of majesty, God as the infinite lord of the universe. 2, the relationship of servant- already described here. 3, the relationship of friendship as exemplified by Arjuna or the gopas of Vrindavan with Krishna. 4, the relationship of mother and child- we look at God as our child like the relationship between Yashoda and Krishna. 5, The relationship of lovers, we are women in relationship to Sriman Narayana and take on the role of Radha and the gopis. 6, Finally we have the relationship of seeing Bhagavan in everything.

These attitudes or bhavas are ways of developing a deep connection with the Lord which culminates in us rediscovering our true relationship with God.

Imho all of the bhavas are contained in each other so it just depends on where we place our emphasis.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Poeticus]

Everywhere I read that the relationship that Krishna devotees aspire to is of eternal servitude. They make it seem like they end up being godslaves! However, in the months I've meditated with the Harinama and other Krishna mantras I felt my relationship with Him was more like a Father-son or friendship relationship. What do you think?

To me, it's not a subservient type of relationship.
Lord Krishna resembles a unique approach to the
concept of Dharma for me. Instead of the yajna-
centric notions of Dharma, Lord Krishna represents
individuality: humor, free-spirited sublimity, the
desire to go against the norms and have a blast
while doing so, engaging in hopeless romance, &
not cower in terms of one's duty to accomplish
actions that lead to the betterment of one's soul
and help society around oneself. Like the Ashvins,
the Rudra-s, and Lord Mitra, Lord Krishna is pretty
much the epitome of conviviality and camaraderie,
in my opinion.

I mean, just look at the following, the Scion of the Yadava-s,
Lord Dwarkadheesh with Shri Radharani; what's not to like ?​

 

[ShivaFan]

This is a complete misunderstanding of some sects of Krishna devotions. Those sects which use the term "servant", meaning those which do not practice Karma Yoga with Bhakti Yoga as a path to Jnana Yoga, and have a different concept of Seva that zeros in on Prema Bhakti, they are not speaking of slavery but a type of relationship based on Love or Prema. I guess love can be construed as slavery, but slavery is involuntary, love is different indeed.

These sects have many technical terms about the intrinsic natures of this love, including servant, but they also use the term "I am the servant of the servant". What does this mean? Let me exp,ain.

I do not want to go the nuances of such technical terms of the types of relationships with Krishna, let the Gaudiyas do that since I am a Saiva. But it is not slavery. Slavery state does exist in Hinduism, for example in the sects of Manasa or Snake Goddess where She is VERY possessive of Her devotees and refuses to share their attention such that She will project a mystic on Her devotees where slavery to the Gauri is indeed expected, but this does not exist in these Krishna sects. Avoiding the nuances, since I am a Saiva, let me just cut to the chase and make it simple.

The servant of the servant means within such Krishna sects of Prema Bhakti, ASSOCIATION with Krishna devotees is VERY important. So such a devotee sees every other devotee as superior, thus they think to serve the devotees is "ecstasy", a statement of humility to such devotees by another devotee in "I am the servant of the servant" is that they are projecting themself lower than the other devotee (even though they are themself a devotee) and saying "I want to get closer to Krishna, and if you are a Servant in the House of Krishna, then if I become your servant than perhaps I can get closer to Krishna since I am in love with Krishna".

Understand?

But ultimately, it is about love.

Now to get to the crux of the matter of this love.

in these sects, love means Two. Meaning love cannot exist unless there is a minimum of two. The lover and the object of love. But in Prema Bhakti, this love or Prema can only exist if the devotee is SEPARATE from Krishna. Meaning they love Krishna, Krishna is the object, and the love itself can only exist if both are existing, i.e. Two.

This is not slavery. To this end, the love is so nice they want it to last forever, thus they do not want to be anything but a devotee, e.g. TWO EXIST.

"Can I serve you Krishna with sweet rice?", e.g. can I be before You and relish Your vision? "Oh, let me make a garland (for You)", another chance to relish. These are called Leelas.

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[Aupmanyav]

So it's Right Hand Path because although you preserve your individuality when you go to the celestial Vrindavan, it's still "Thy will be done"?

You can merge your personality with the deity, as Chaitanya or Meera did. Though I am an (atheist), I have a friend's relationship (Sakha Bhava) with Rama. You can even make the deity your servant and order him to run errands. But you have to earn that relationship, 'adhikarin', 'you are good enough for that'. Just think, 'the master of the deity'! Sure, it does not come easy. That is Hinduism. When Saint Tulsidas wanted Krishna to abandon flute and appear with a bow, Krishna obliged. Rama and Lakshman guarded Tulsidas' hut day-and-night in Chitrakoota against his enemies.

"One may speak of bhāvas plural, often glossed as devotional attitudes. A traditional reckoning of ideal bhāvas, as exemplified in the Hindu scriptures, is as follows:
śāntabhāva, the calm, peaceful, gentle or saintly attitude adopted by the ancient Rishis
dāsyabhāva, the attitude of a servant towards his master, exemplified by Hanuman
sakhyabhāva, the attitude of a friend as exemplified by Arjuna and Uddhava towards Krishna
vātsalyabhāva, the attitude of a mother towards her child as exemplified by Kausalya towards Rama and of Yasoda towards Krishna
madhurabhāva (or kantabhava), the attitude of a woman in love as exemplified by Radha and Mirabai toward Krishna
tanmayabhava, the attitude that the Lord is present everywhere."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhava#In_bhakti_traditions:

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have never had a particular issue with this with my short time spent trying to grasp Hinduism as the dasya rasa mood was natural because this is just how I was taught. When it comes to the concept of slavery and Krishna it can best be described as allowing your "self" to unexist. You are trying to replace your Self with something or someone much better. I guess a more simpler way is to think of how Christians use the term "born again". You simply wish to foster such a reverence and obedience to Sri Krsna's ways and behavior that you in essence become like Krsna. You get rid of all your undesirable attributes and immerse yourself into the love of Krsna.

I use to be a Shaivite so the concept of abandoning the self is more prominent in this school then Vaishnavism. You should not be deterred from it.

 

[Asha]

Namaste

Everywhere I read that the relationship that Krishna devotees aspire to is of eternal servitude. They make it seem like they end up being godslaves!

In a way this is true. We do regard ourselves as eternal servitors and for this reason we take on the name Das or Dasi.
But this is very different from the idea of slavery. We make this choise of our own free will and through our own realisation.

When one takes this step of comitment it is because we realise that servitude is our eternal position, we realise the greatness of Shree Hari and reaising the beauty and greatness of the Lord we have no desire to merrge with an impersonal Brahman but wish to remain eternaly devoted to the lotus feet of our Lord.

However, in the months I've meditated with the Harinama and other Krishna mantras I felt my relationship with Him was more like a Father-son or friendship relationship. What do you think?

Every one feels a different relationship to the Lord and even the feelings of relationship change with time as we come to know the Lord better.
We should never try to force any feeling, we should just let it develop naturaly.
It is also very helpfull to read as well as chant. Our daily Practice is to chant then read a small portion of the Gita every day this will realy help the relationship and natural attitude of service to develop.

Best wishes for your practice.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[George-ananda]

Everywhere I read that the relationship that Krishna devotees aspire to is of eternal servitude. They make it seem like they end up being godslaves! However, in the months I've meditated with the Harinama and other Krishna mantras I felt my relationship with Him was more like a Father-son or friendship relationship. What do you think?

At first it can be happy servitude (for your own good) to something so grander and wiser than you. This is a good thing. This is the Bahkti devotional approach.

Eventually, you will realize Krishna is everywhere and you ARE God by whatever name and form you visualized. In the end you will realize there is nothing but God and you were in the delusion of separateness all along (maya).

 

[Jainarayan]

You are looking at it from a western mindset, therefore it is not valid. Have you read the Bhagavad gita ? The answer to your question lies there.

You cannot apply the western idea of "God""his kingdom" and "his angels" or "servants" on Hinduism. It is a complete different mindset that have almost nothing to do with the western or abrahamic God concept.

I agree with this. I have never believed in the "running through the grass barefoot, honey bees buzzing, flower scents wafting around Goloka, singing bhajans". It smacks of Abrahamic Heaven. I think it is something that was promulgated by Srila Prabhupada when founding ISKCON, to make Hinduism appealing to westerners. This is just my opinion, though the joke would be on me if it were all true.

 

[agorman]

Thank you very much to all for clarifying the matter about Krishna.

Now Sha'irullah, I'm curious, now what is your relationship with Satan? master-servant, father-son, friendship, lovers, etc.?