Small Government Vs Large Government

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

What does Small Government Vs Large Government mean to you?

What is the ideal world you want to live in? What should the government do for you and what should you have to do for yourself?

What kind of country do you want to live in? (I don't think this site lets me link to things but this exact quest was asked on This American Life)

What are you willing to pay for Roads? Street lights? Drug Testing of the poor? Police? Firemen? Schools? Snow Plows? Signs? Courts? Public Defendants?

Where do you draw the line? Should we not be taxed? What type of country would you prefer to live in?

For arguments sake lets say we made you an ABSOLUTE dictator for 10 years. Where would you move this country to and why? (This is posted in North American Politics but I am specifically thinking of the USA in this instance)

 

[Valjean]

Small government means short, crude roads, with surfaces changing every few km, and toll booths, and roads serving only populated areas and businesses.

Small government means high water prices and polluted water from your tap. It means polluted rivers and lakes and oceans, largely devoid of fish.

It means tainted food and polluted air.

It means expensive, unregulated, competing fire and police services that must be subscribed to.

It means unsafe cars and spotty, expensive public transportation.

It means expensive and unregulated health care, available mostly to the rich. It means effective medications competing with snake-oil and dangerous ones marketed freely. It means an even playing field for quacks and skilled physicians.

It means education available only to a few, and higher ed only to the rich.

It means unregulated banks, an unstable currency, no deposit insurance, frequent recessions and bank closures.

It means capricious and exploitative laws and enforcement.

It means the destruction of wilderness; the mining, pollution and logging of National Parks.

It means disaster victims are SOL and on their own -- not to mention unprepared due to no weather service.

It means low wages, no job security, unsafe jobsites and no retirement. It means starvation for the disabled and the old and the unlucky.

Government is us. It's open and responsible to the people. It's transparent-- its standards, financials and methods regulated and open to public scrutiny. Its services are wholesale and group discounted.

Private enterprise sans government is secretive, expensive and exploitative. Closed to scrutiny with no regulation of prices, safety or effectiveness. It is expensive, unreliable and unanswerable to any authority.

 

[apophenia]

Small government means ...

Private enterprise sans government is secretive, expensive and exploitative. Closed to scrutiny with no regulation of prices, safety or effectiveness. It is expensive, unreliable and unanswerable to any authority.

Well said ! Or to say it in sanskrit - "Sanskrit !"

I wish I could give you a thousand frubals for that. Have one anyway. :bow:

 

[Revoltingest]

Gimme small government (constitutional, of course).
Aside from advantages of more liberty & lower taxes, it also really pi**es Seyorni off.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Gimme small government (constitutional, of course).
Aside from advantages of more liberty & lower taxes, it also really pi**es Seyorni off.

Hey now, Seyorni rides a Harley and is frugal. I don't agree with his politics, but I respect his opinions because while he may be off the deep end many times IMHO, his comentary has a ring of truth to it as well.

To me small government is more approachable. I feel I can challenge small government to great effect. Big government is wasteful and inefficent.

I suspect Seyorni just wants those smooth roads so his Avon's don't find a groove.

I understand completely. :yes:

 

[doppelganger]

Government should be just large enough to maintain social and economic order without interfering too much with the self-interest that drives the market.

Economic freedom - especially when it comes to excesses - necessarily must be sacrificed to make the economy stable and sustainable. Anyone who believes in completely unregulated "free enterprise" is calling for the end of the free market, because it has to be safeguarded against its own destabilizing excesses - especially when we combine the two legal constructs of "limited liability" and "corporate personhood." We've created sociopathic entities. Very useful ones for sure (they pool capital and allow for specialized application of resources), but sociopathic nonetheless.

Where to draw the line is the where the disagreements lie - often driven and funded by people who have bungloads of money and want to engage in unsustainable and destabilizing activities for short-term personal gain. Platitudes about "small government" and "big government" are worse than worthless. They distract public attention from the real details of how and where to strike the balance that makes social systems and economic relations mutually beneficial.

 

[T-Dawg]

Big Government is definitely the way to go. Most people don't seem to realize that small government inherently implies a large private sector, and that that's wrong (especially in the cases of natural monopolies and necessity goods).

I could go into how the free market-driven consumer culture destroys individuality, but I think it's more important how capitalism is inherently an unstable, short-term system. The thing to notice is that businesses, in order to be successful, have to bring in more revenue than they pump out to consumers in the form of products. This means that in order for the system to survive, new capital has to be created/exploited in order to fuel economic growth (in the past, this has come from the harvesting of more resources, which we are now running out of). The economy must grow in order to meet the needs of the growing economy, and by extension the workforce must grow to meet the needs of the growing consumer class (which is composed mostly of the same people from the workforce), and supply must grow to fulfill an infinite demand. As a result, as the system progresses, the destruction of natural capital is an inevitable result, to the point where as it approaches zero, prices will suddenly start to skyrocket and the entire system will likely collapse in a series of riots and uprisings. To make matters worse, if there's anything I've learned from interacting with people, it's that people are stupid, and tend to vastly underestimate the value of natural capital (because most people by stupidity and businesses by design focus primarily on short-term gains and losses), so that even when the negative externalities and resource costs are addressed, the effort tends to be underdone.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey now, Seyorni rides a Harley and is frugal. I don't agree with his politics, but I respect his opinions because while he may be off the deep end many times IMHO, his comentary has a ring of truth to it as well.

I like the goofy fellow too....thus my mirthful barb.

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

Small government means short, crude roads, with surfaces changing every few km, and toll booths, and roads serving only populated areas and businesses.

Small government means high water prices and polluted water from your tap. It means polluted rivers and lakes and oceans, largely devoid of fish.

It means tainted food and polluted air.

It means expensive, unregulated, competing fire and police services that must be subscribed to.

It means unsafe cars and spotty, expensive public transportation.

It means expensive and unregulated health care, available mostly to the rich. It means effective medications competing with snake-oil and dangerous ones marketed freely. It means an even playing field for quacks and skilled physicians.

It means education available only to a few, and higher ed only to the rich.

It means unregulated banks, an unstable currency, no deposit insurance, frequent recessions and bank closures.

It means capricious and exploitative laws and enforcement.

It means the destruction of wilderness; the mining, pollution and logging of National Parks.

It means disaster victims are SOL and on their own -- not to mention unprepared due to no weather service.

It means low wages, no job security, unsafe jobsites and no retirement. It means starvation for the disabled and the old and the unlucky.

Government is us. It's open and responsible to the people. It's transparent-- its standards, financials and methods regulated and open to public scrutiny. Its services are wholesale and group discounted.

Private enterprise sans government is secretive, expensive and exploitative. Closed to scrutiny with no regulation of prices, safety or effectiveness. It is expensive, unreliable and unanswerable to any authority.

Well said. In the american life podcast they discuss some towns where the government is shrinking and how that is having a large impact on the people who still live there. Crime goes up, murders go up, businesses leave because no one is available to investigate or stop robberies or fix sidewalks. Parks wilt and die and become overgrown. Street lights get turned off. Trash piles up.

There are some interesting case studies. I think people have a problem paying taxes because they feel their money is not being spent well. I say feel because I don't think some know what the budget is for their town or city and what their taxes pay for.

Inherently people working together can accomplish more than individuals focusing on their own separate agendas. We all need roads, bridges, police, firemen, safety standards, licensing and approvals or it turns into chaos and creates an environment of lawlessness and injustice.

Americans used to band together because they knew that United they are strong. Now they are split up in left vs right and conservative vs liberal and big government vs small government. What does it even mean to refer to government that way? We need a government. The USA is its government as much as it is the citizens and people that live in the country. All of its people from rich to poor and from godless liberals and to tea party conservatives are americans and are in this together. "E pluribus unum". Recall the sonnet "The New Colossus". Does that have meaning anymore?

We have a government that guarantees freedom and equality, defense of its lands, supporting existing infrastructure and many other services which SERVE the american people and it needs to be funded. Government is not a charity run service.

The government used to build cities, interstate systems and explored space, now it can't pass simple legislature. The american government actually used to be trusted and supported by its people and it used to inspire not only its own people but the rest of the world.

 

[apophenia]

More power in the private sector means more power to corporations.

To whom do corporations owe their loyalty ? Shareholders. In fact the board of directors has a legal obligation to make decisions which maximise the profits of shareholders. Be very clear about that, and the implications of that. A board of directors is legally bound to ignore concerns such as employment levels, quality of life issues like maintaining green spaces, environmental issues and many other issues.

Small government means less attention is paid to these concerns. If a corporation can generate increased profit by fracking, mountaintopping, outsourcing to countries with cheaper labour, or developing housing estates in the forested mountains of Woody Creek ( in memory of Hunter.S.Thompson ), then the board of directors is pretty much bound to do the deal. Without the oversight of government agencies big business can and will tear up your backyard and turn your world into a toxic eyesore, shut down the businesses which keep your small town alive, and show brutal disregard for the concerns of residents in any place they intend to transmogrify for the sake of profit. No other concerns are allowed to guide their decisions. And with small government, no-one is keeping a close eye on those decisions.

 

[Mathematician]

Give me efficient and just government, regardless of size.

 

[backwateru]

Private enterprise sans government is secretive, expensive and exploitative. Closed to scrutiny with no regulation of prices, safety or effectiveness. It is expensive, unreliable and unanswerable to any authority.

Who in the world would want private enterprise "sans government"?

 

[Revoltingest]

Who in the world would want private enterprise "sans government"?

Straw men would.
You know them....they're always doing really odd things.

 

[Reverend Rick]

More power in the private sector means more power to corporations.

To whom do corporations owe their loyalty ? Shareholders. In fact the board of directors has a legal obligation to make decisions which maximise the profits of shareholders.

You ignore who the share holders are.

Parents who are saving and investing to put their children through college.

People who are saving to retire.

You act like the interests of share holders are evil, but they are the folks who provide capital to create jobs.

Jobs are not created to give folks employment, they are created to make investors money.

No investors, no jobs.

No jobs, no taxes.

No taxes, no government.

 

[Mathematician]

You're assuming their money otherwise would not come into fruition. We could have likely said seven hundred years ago that without kings and lords, there'd be no order among common people.

Inventors fuel human growth. Investors profit from them. Rarely are the two intertwined.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Small government means short, crude roads, with surfaces changing every few km, and toll booths, and roads serving only populated areas and businesses.

Small government means high water prices and polluted water from your tap. It means polluted rivers and lakes and oceans, largely devoid of fish.

It means tainted food and polluted air.

It means expensive, unregulated, competing fire and police services that must be subscribed to.

It means unsafe cars and spotty, expensive public transportation.

It means expensive and unregulated health care, available mostly to the rich. It means effective medications competing with snake-oil and dangerous ones marketed freely. It means an even playing field for quacks and skilled physicians.

It means education available only to a few, and higher ed only to the rich.

It means unregulated banks, an unstable currency, no deposit insurance, frequent recessions and bank closures.

It means capricious and exploitative laws and enforcement.

It means the destruction of wilderness; the mining, pollution and logging of National Parks.

It means disaster victims are SOL and on their own -- not to mention unprepared due to no weather service.

It means low wages, no job security, unsafe jobsites and no retirement. It means starvation for the disabled and the old and the unlucky.

Government is us. It's open and responsible to the people. It's transparent-- its standards, financials and methods regulated and open to public scrutiny. Its services are wholesale and group discounted.

Private enterprise sans government is secretive, expensive and exploitative. Closed to scrutiny with no regulation of prices, safety or effectiveness. It is expensive, unreliable and unanswerable to any authority.

You forgot to mention an enormous military, unlimited expenditure on offensive war, a massive domestic and global spying / secret operations program, a gigantic prison system, and possibly even a barrier between the U.S. and Mexico which would dwarf the Berlin wall. These enormous government enterprises are crucial parts of "Small Government", as conceived by its self-proclaimed proponents in the U.S.

 

[Revoltingest]

You forgot to mention an enormous military, unlimited expenditure on offensive war, a massive domestic and global spying / secret operations program, a gigantic prison system, and possibly even a barrier between the U.S. and Mexico which would dwarf the Berlin wall. These enormous government enterprises are crucial parts of "Small Government", as conceived by its self-proclaimed proponents in the U.S.

This is, of course, ridiculous. Certainly, there are some disingenuous proponents of small gov't, whose real agenda is otherwise.
But the rest of us want a smaller military for strictly self-defense, fewer laws so that we have fewer law breakers, etc, etc.
Want small gov't? You won't find many fans in Pubs or any at all in Dems.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Revoltingest what I said was not ridiculous, because of course I am talking about the majority of the "self-proclaimed proponents in the U.S." of small government, i.e. Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Rick Perry, Michelle Bachmann, etc. Ron Paul and Revoltingest are notable (and sadly and most probably entirely inconsequential) exceptions to this otherwise quite accurate observation.

 

[Revoltingest]

Revoltingest what I said was not ridiculous, because of course I am talking about the majority of the "self-proclaimed proponents in the U.S." of small government, i.e. Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Rick Perry, Michelle Bachmann, etc. Ron Paul and Revoltingest are notable (and sadly and most probably entirely inconsequential) exceptions to this otherwise quite accurate observation.

Romney! Gingrich! Santorum!
Tax & spend big gov't types all!
I wonder....do any of them actually claim to favor small government?

Hmmmm......"Inconsequentialest" is a good moniker.

 

[apophenia]

"More power in the private sector means more power to corporations.

To whom do corporations owe their loyalty ? Shareholders. In fact the board of directors has a legal obligation to make decisions which maximise the profits of shareholders."

You ignore who the share holders are.

Parents who are saving and investing to put their children through college.

People who are saving to retire.

You act like the interests of share holders are evil, but they are the folks who provide capital to create jobs.

Jobs are not created to give folks employment, they are created to make investors money.

No investors, no jobs.

No jobs, no taxes.

No taxes, no government.

The fact that investors are moms and dads, or that investment creates jobs, has no bearing on the point I made.

The point I made is that corporate behaviour is only about profit, without regard to other consequences. That is not a suggestion that investment is bad. It is an observation that the process requires oversight .

Are you suggesting that investment and profit can only occur with small government ?

Is there a fundamental reason why only the profit motive of a specific corporation should be considered when decisions are being made which affect the whole community, and the environment, which is a shared resource ?

Your point seems irrelevant, because having government agencies overseeing community and environmental issues does not prevent the activity of investment and profit in general. Surely you are aware that with little or no regulation, irresponsible decisions are made with no regard to their impact on anything other than short term profit.