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Snowflakes....designed or accidents of nature?

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Does it prove that evolution doesn't need random beneficial mutations to happen first ?
What's your point ?


FearGod my question was and please answer

"is this bird "designed" or an accident of nature?

sn-cardinal.jpg
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
"then how long do you suppose it would take a whale to turn into a hippo"

LOL


"Whales "cetaceans" are mammals like us. Despite that "fishy" lifestyle, their physiology clearly reveals their mammalian features. How did this occur? How did whales evolve? What did they evolve from? The evidence of whale evolution is clear. The list of new fossil species exhibiting transitional features continues to grow. If you are ever asked for an example of "transitional fossils", this list is a great place to start."

Indohyus
Pakicetus
Rodhocetus
Nalacetus
Ichthyolestes
Gandakasia
Ambulocetus
Himalayacetus
Attockicetus
Remingtonocetus
Dalanistes
Kutchicetus
Andrewsiphius
Indocetus
Qaisracetus
Takracetus
Artiocetus
Babiacetus
Protocetus
Pappocetus
Eocetus
Georgiacetus
Natchitochia
Dorudon
Ancalacetus
Zygorhiza
Saghacetus
Chrysocetus
Gaviacetus
Pontogeneus
Basilosaurus
Basiloterus


Whales evolved, as of course did all life on earth and still is evolving.

Morphed: When Whales had Legs



Morphed: Before They Were Bears


Morphed: from dinosaur to turkey




The Valley of the Whales - Egypt Travel Guide -

"
There is another even more ancient Egypt that is known to very few people. The Fayoum area contains some of the best preserved paleontological sites in the world one of which is Wadi Hitan or the Valley of Whales. This is a remote valley in the Western Desert of Egypt. At 150 kilometers southwest of Cairo, the valley is located near the Al-Katrani mountain range, a well known and valuable geological site for its rare vertebrate fossils and mega-fossils.



The Valley of Whales, also known as Zeuglodon Valley, lies within the boundaries of the Wadi El-Rayan Protected Area (WRPA), about eighty kilometers from Fayoum City. WRPA was created in 1989, and lies in the vicinity of a series of natural hot springs and two lakes created in the 1970s from excess agricultural water channeled from the nearby Lake Karun (Qarun).

There is considerable evidence which indicates that the basin of Wadi Hitan was submerged in water some 40 to 50 million years ago. At that time, the so-called Tethys Sea reached far south of the existing Mediterranean. The Tethys Sea is assumed to have retreated north and over the years deposited thick sediments of sandstone and limestone visible in rock formations in Wadi Hitan.

Today, the area is occupied by numerous excavation sites of whales, sharks, petrified mangrove bushes, a wide variety of fossil plants and various other remains of the prehistoric sea. One is bound to come across petrified corals, shark teeth and fossil remains scattered all over the valley. The landscapes are just as impressive and amazing. The valley lies in the midst of an attractive and distinctive desert landscape of wind-eroded rock platforms surrounded by sand dunes and hills. Hundreds of buried fossil skeletons that have been lying trapped for millennia in sandstone formations of the ancient sea are being exposed by the wind as well as the archaeological works.


The revealed fossils are mainly those of ancient whales from the earliest types which are now extinct; the Zeuglodon or Basilosaurus whale. Nevertheless, the precise reason so many ancient whales fossils of this type are located there is yet unclear. This unique valley is also characteristic for its varied species of desert plants, numerous types of reptiles, migrant birds, and wild mammals such as the white deer, the Egyptian deer, fennec fox, red fox and many others.

The Valley of the Whales

Read more: The Valley of the Whales
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
It just amazes me people don't know more about the planet they live on and its history, from how the solar system formed, to plate tectonics and biology, all the Earth sciences. The fact ANYONE is arguing evolution, both micro and macro didn't happened is a joke. This was settled last century. Billions of facts support it.

They jump to "kind's" when the Oxygen there breathing is from evolution and bacteria.

The Origin of Oxygen in Earth's Atmosphere
The breathable air we enjoy today originated from tiny organisms, although the details remain lost in geologic time

"It's hard to keep oxygen molecules around, despite the fact that it's the third-most abundant element in the universe, forged in the superhot, superdense core of stars. That's because oxygen wants to react; it can form compounds with nearly every other element on the periodic table. So how did Earth end up with an atmosphere made up of roughly 21 percent of the stuff?

The answer is tiny organisms known as cyanobacteria, or blue-green algae. These microbes conduct photosynthesis: using sunshine, water and carbon dioxide to produce carbohydrates and, yes, oxygen. In fact, all the plants on Earth incorporate symbiotic cyanobacteria (known as chloroplasts) to do their photosynthesis for them down to this day.

For some untold eons prior to the evolution of these cyanobacteria, during the Archean eon, more primitive microbes lived the real old-fashioned way: anaerobically. These ancient organisms—and their "extremophile" descendants today—thrived in the absence of oxygen, relying on sulfate for their energy needs.

But roughly 2.45 billion years ago, the isotopic ratio of sulfur transformed, indicating that for the first time oxygen was becoming a significant component of Earth's atmosphere, according to a 2000 paper in Science. At roughly the same time (and for eons thereafter), oxidized iron began to appear in ancient soils and bands of iron were deposited on the seafloor, a product of reactions with oxygen in the seawater.

"What it looks like is that oxygen was first produced somewhere around 2.7 billion to 2.8 billon years ago. It took up residence in atmosphere around 2.45 billion years ago," says geochemist Dick Holland, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania. "It looks as if there's a significant time interval between the appearance of oxygen-producing organisms and the actual oxygenation of the atmosphere."

So a date and a culprit can be fixed for what scientists refer to as the Great Oxidation Event, but mysteries remain. What occurred 2.45 billion years ago that enabled cyanobacteria to take over? What were oxygen levels at that time? Why did it take another one billion years—dubbed the "boring billion" by scientists—for oxygen levels to rise high enough to enable the evolution of animals?

The Origin of Oxygen in Earth's Atmosphere - Scientific American

If it wasn't for evolution you wouldn't be breathing Oxygen but instead NATURAL GAS.


"The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.
– Carl Sagan"
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
No you don't. How honest is that? Its quite obvious your taking the ground of willful ignorance of factual evidence in support of Evolution.


Your perverting evidence it to match your faith. This below is a FACT.

AIP facts of evolution.

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

  1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
  2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
  3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
  4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.
Nothing you say, can refute a single word, nor any source you choose will change one of these FACTS.

You have repeated it multiple times it Looks like Palilalia.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
The Creationist God isn't smart enough to use Evolutionary algorithms to create life. He has to handcraft every detail like the carpenters in the old days only.

That's why we're a simple machines because God wasn't smart enough to make us much better, specially the eyes, not that perfect, we see 2 images for a single one.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
That's why we're a simple machines because God wasn't smart enough to make us much better, specially the eyes, not that perfect, we see 2 images for a single one.


"
Evolution of the Eye:

spacer.gif

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When evolution skeptics want to attack Darwin's theory, they often point to the human eye. How could something so complex, they argue, have developed through random mutations and natural selection, even over millions of years?

If evolution occurs through gradations, the critics say, how could it have created the separate parts of the eye -- the lens, the retina, the pupil, and so forth -- since none of these structures by themselves would make vision possible? In other words, what good is five percent of an eye?

Darwin acknowledged from the start that the eye would be a difficult case for his new theory to explain. Difficult, but not impossible. Scientists have come up with scenarios through which the first eye-like structure, a light-sensitive pigmented spot on the skin, could have gone through changes and complexities to form the human eye, with its many parts and astounding abilities.

Through natural selection, different types of eyes have emerged in evolutionary history -- and the human eye isn't even the best one, from some standpoints. Because blood vessels run across the surface of the retina instead of beneath it, it's easy for the vessels to proliferate or leak and impair vision. So, the evolution theorists say, the anti-evolution argument that life was created by an "intelligent designer" doesn't hold water: If God or some other omnipotent force was responsible for the human eye, it was something of a botched design.

Biologists use the range of less complex light sensitive structures that exist in living species today to hypothesize the various evolutionary stages eyes may have gone through.

Here's how some scientists think some eyes may have evolved:

Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Eye


Scientific America

Evolution of the Eye
Scientists now have a clear vision of how our notoriously complex eye came to be

So intricate is the eye that its origin has long been a cause célèbre among creationists and intelligent design proponents, who hold it up as a prime example of what they term irreducible complexity—a system that cannot function in the absence of any of its components and that therefore cannot have evolved naturally from a more primitive form. Indeed, Charles Darwin himself acknowledged in On the
Origin of Species
—the 1859 book detailing his theory of evolution by natural selection—that it might seem absurd to think the eye formed by natural selection. He nonetheless firmly believed that the eye did evolve in that way, despite a lack of evidence for intermediate forms at the time.

Direct evidence has continued to be hard to come by. Whereas scholars who study the evolution of the skeleton can readily document its metamorphosis in the fossil record, soft-tissue structures rarely fossilize. And even when they do, the fossils do not preserve nearly enough detail to establish how the structures evolved. Still, biologists have recently made significant advances in tracing the origin of the eye—by studying how it forms in developing embryos and by comparing eye structure and genes across species to reconstruct when key traits arose. The results indicate that our kind of eye—the type common across vertebrates—took shape in less than 100 million years, evolving from a simple light sensor for circadian (daily) and seasonal rhythms around 600 million years ago to an optically and neurologically sophisticated organ by 500 million years ago. More than 150 years after Darwin published his groundbreaking theory,these findings put the nail in the coffin of irreducible complexity and beautifully support Darwin’s idea.
They also explain why the eye, far from being a perfectly engineered piece of machinery, exhibits a number of major flaws—these flaws are the scars of evolution. Natural selection does not, as some might think, result in perfection. It tinkers with the material available to it, sometimes to odd effect.

Evolution of the Eye - Scientific American



One Common Ancestor Behind Blue Eyes

People with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor, according to new research.

A team of scientists has tracked down a genetic mutation that leads to blue eyes. The mutation occurred between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago. Before then, there were no blue eyes.

"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine at the University of Copenhagen.

he mutation affected the so-called OCA2 gene, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives color to our hair, eyes andskin .

"A genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a 'switch,' which literally 'turned off' the ability to produce brown eyes," Eiberg said.

The genetic switch is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 and rather than completely turning off the gene, the switch limits its action, which reduces the production of melanin in the iris. In effect, the turned-down switch diluted brown eyes to blue.

If the OCA2 gene had been completely shut down, our hair, eyes and skin would be melanin-less, a condition known as albinism....

"

Melanin switch

The mutation is what regulates the OCA2 switch for melanin production. And depending on the amount of melanin in the iris, a person can end up with eye color ranging from brown to green. Brown-eyed individuals have considerable individual variation in the area of their DNA that controls melanin production. But they found that blue-eyed individuals only have a small degree of variation in the amount of melanin in their eyes.

"Out of 800 persons we have only found one person which didn't fit — but his eye color was blue with a single brown spot," Eiberg told LiveScience, referring to the finding that blue-eyed individuals all had the same sequence of DNA linked with melanin production.

"From this we can conclude that all blue-eyed individuals are linked to the same ancestor," Eiberg said. "They have all inherited the same switch at exactly the same spot in their DNA." Eiberg and his colleagues detailed their study in the Jan. 3 online edition of the journal Human Genetics.

That genetic switch somehow spread throughout Europe and now other parts of the world.

"The question really is, 'Why did we go from having nobody on Earth with blue eyes 10,000 years ago to having 20 or 40 percent of Europeans having blue eyes now?" Hawks said. "This gene does something good for people. It makes them have more kids."


One Common Ancestor Behind Blue Eyes
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
So Fear God, why didn't God just design a planet with an Oxygen atmosphere right from the get go, why did it take billions of years to first evolved photosynthesis and then create the Oxygen needed for most, not all life forms on Earth today?

We know the universe evolved, we know the solar system evolved, we know life on earth biologically evolved and is still involving including us and we know the universe is still evolving.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
FearGod my question was and please answer

"is this bird "designed" or an accident of nature?

sn-cardinal.jpg


All things should even look much worse than this one example, evolution sucks.

This one case is for you to think how evolution should be stupid, exactly the same opposite example of the snowflakes.

Wow, amazing, these wonderful snowflakes that occur naturally and if about humans, then it's a bad design if by God or simply no plan needed.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
So Fear God, why didn't God just design a planet with an Oxygen atmosphere right from the get go, why did it take billions of years to first evolved photosynthesis and then create the Oxygen needed for most, not all life forms on Earth today?

We know the universe evolved, we know the solar system evolved, we know life on earth biologically evolved and is still involving including us and we know the universe is still evolving.

It's like asking why we need 9 months to grow in our mother's wombs, why not just from the get go.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
All things should even look much worse than this one example, evolution sucks.

This one case is for you to think how evolution should be stupid, exactly the same opposite example of the snowflakes.

Wow, amazing, these wonderful snowflakes that occur naturally and if about humans, then it's a bad design if by God or simply no plan needed.

No there are more cases then that. Humans of course had nothing to do with it, so with God no plan needed and God messed with the bird and other gynandromorphism animals for no reason and no plan, just designed them to have trouble in life?

"
Gynandromorphism is a condition whereby an animal presents both male and female characteristics. That was the case for this unique Midwest cardinal, who featured female plumage on its right side and male plumage on its left side.

Because the cardinal color split (half white, half red) ran vertically from top to bottom, the specimen was considered to exhibit bilateral gynandromorphism. In addition to birds, various types of gynandromorphism can be seen butterflies, crustaceans and arachnids."

Gynandromorphic cardinal spotted in Illinois - UPI.com


"
Bilateral gynandromorphism: a fancy way of saying you're (literally) half male and half female

"
In extraordinary cases, some animals have each chromosome in very particular physical regions. Meet the gynandromorphs — parts of their bodies are male...and the other parts are female.

The chromosomes of an animal determine its sex. But some animals have sex chromosomes that aren't expressed. Some have chromosomes that are expressed internally, whereas a different set are expressed externally. Nature has many ways of combining genes, and some of these combinations evince a distinctly binary way of looking at the world. Such is the case with a genetic condition known as gynandromorphism."

Bilateral gynandromorphism: a fancy way of saying you're (literally) half male and half female

 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
It's like asking why we need 9 months to grow in our mother's wombs, why not just from the get go.

Exactly since we need 9 months to grow in our mother's womb from evolution. But why not if designed from the get go and "God did it" and not through billions of years of evolution, micro and macro, sine we know both are a fact. So if there is a God and you believe there is, then from 150 years of testing and more sophisticated testing methods and all our observations, and billions of facts, in many many disciplines of science and the case just keeps getting stronger to the point where now its just how it worked, not that it didn't work that way, that is how God must work, through evolution micro and macro evolution.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
"evolution sucks"

Yet your here because of it. Every atom in your body and the elements like carbon formed by nucleosynthesis and the air you breath by the evolution of photosynthesis.

Since you believe in God, its to bad you have such views of God's work.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
And all of this information is "proof" that one "kind" of life evolved into all the many other different "kinds" of life forms? And this process, seemingly with no intelligent direction, produced all the living beings and systems we see, and have seen on planet Earth?
Sorry, I just can't see how that is possible.

I checked out the evolution of the horse. As far as I can see, horses may have changed in shape and size over time but they are still four legged creatures of the horse "kind"......but in 55 million years, give or take a few million, according to evolutionists, they did not form a completely different animal....did they?

We have many different varieties of domestic dogs and cats of all shapes, colors and variety, who can all interbreed, but are they are selectively bred by humans to remain within their distinct varieties.
Left to their own devices, these man-made breeds would soon become a mish-mash...but they would all remain true to their species....they would all still be dogs or cats no matter how much time elapsed. Their mating habits, programmed into their DNA, would ensure that.

The "kinds" of creatures that have been around for millennia, are still here basically unchanged except perhaps for minor adaptive features that facilitate feeding or reproduction. When Darwin observed the Galapagos finches and turtles he did not see one species evolving into another. He saw adaptation through isolation because of the environment on the island being different to the mainland. He made the leap, and it seems, others blindly followed.

Beetles were mentioned......but when adaptation took place, they remain of the beetle "kind" and still are to this day.......and sea creatures are still swimming around with other marines creatures of their "kind". I have yet to see evidence for one "kind" evolving into another "kind" of creature altogether. Why can't amphibians be the product of design, the same way any other creature is? Who said they must be some kind of transitional life form? How many transitional life forms are there really? There should be literally thousands for each species that is believed to have gradually evolved. Where are they? Evidence for the gradual changes in all these life forms should be in evidence......why are they missing?

Do you understand what a stretch it is to believe what you are saying? Interpretation of the "evidence" seems to be what agrees with their own assumptions. Throw in a couple on million years and all things are possible according to the theorists....yet the mention of an intelligent designer has them all spitting the dummy. Why is their scenario any less far fetched than you think ours is? o_O

What does the real world show us? The one that is under our noses not under a skewed scientific lens, anticipating what "might have" occurred millions of years ago.

In the oceans, myriad forms of sea creatures only mate with their own species maintaining distinct varieties within their "kinds" that do not interbreed with any other "kind" of sea creature. The varieties within their "kinds" remain separate and distinct from one another because that is the way they are designed.
I looked up the evolution of the turtle or tortoise shell and it was supported by a video to demonstrate how the skeletal structure of early species somehow ended up outside their body....computer generated of course. I laughed.

No one has explained how birds know how to build the unique nests peculiar to their species when they were not there to observe their parents doing so in order for it to be a learned behavior.

How do birds and butterflies routinely migrate to places they have never been?

Do the designs, colors and patterning of caterpillars (linked to previously) just happen with no designer......just random chance enhancing their beauty? Are they attractive to one another? Why should they be? Caterpillars don't mate.

These are the questions that evolution does not seem to want to answer. I am not impressed by the imagination of men...even learned ones.
Evolution does answer all of that, you just refuse to educate yourself and instead insist on attacking evolution blindly.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
No there are more cases then that. Humans of course had nothing to do with it, so with God no plan needed and God messed with the bird and other gynandromorphism animals for no reason and no plan, just designed them to have trouble in life?

"
Gynandromorphism is a condition whereby an animal presents both male and female characteristics. That was the case for this unique Midwest cardinal, who featured female plumage on its right side and male plumage on its left side.

Because the cardinal color split (half white, half red) ran vertically from top to bottom, the specimen was considered to exhibit bilateral gynandromorphism. In addition to birds, various types of gynandromorphism can be seen butterflies, crustaceans and arachnids."

Gynandromorphic cardinal spotted in Illinois - UPI.com


"
Bilateral gynandromorphism: a fancy way of saying you're (literally) half male and half female

"
In extraordinary cases, some animals have each chromosome in very particular physical regions. Meet the gynandromorphs — parts of their bodies are male...and the other parts are female.

The chromosomes of an animal determine its sex. But some animals have sex chromosomes that aren't expressed. Some have chromosomes that are expressed internally, whereas a different set are expressed externally. Nature has many ways of combining genes, and some of these combinations evince a distinctly binary way of looking at the world. Such is the case with a genetic condition known as gynandromorphism."

Bilateral gynandromorphism: a fancy way of saying you're (literally) half male and half female

So in short, you believe that humans is the product of the inanimate stone and for you it makes sense.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Obviously you didn't read I what I replied....I actually agreed with most of it. :D

I am not a creationist....but I can't swallow the whole macro-evolutionary argument either. I take the middle ground, which is much more reasonable in my view and fits the facts rather than the speculation. Do you understand that?
No, you are being dishonest. Macro evolution is observed fact. It is something we have actually observed. You keep pretending not to have been told that.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Exactly since we need 9 months to grow in our mother's womb from evolution. But why not if designed from the get go and "God did it" and not through billions of years of evolution, micro and macro, sine we know both are a fact. So if there is a God and you believe there is, then from 150 years of testing and more sophisticated testing methods and all our observations, and billions of facts, in many many disciplines of science and the case just keeps getting stronger to the point where now its just how it worked, not that it didn't work that way, that is how God must work, through evolution micro and macro evolution.

Can we build a building without making the blocks first, and should we make one block to make a building or we need more than one block, what if we need to make 100 buildings, how many blocks we need and what if millions.

So why we need to make the simple blocks first, why not just to make the buildings directly.

I hope this answer your question as why we need simpler things to make a more complex ones.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
So in short, you believe that humans is the product of the inanimate stone and for you it makes sense.

It doesn't matter that it makes sense to me, I can't change the facts, Qm theory doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but its one of the most successful theories in science along with evolution and the Big Bang. Evolution makes sense if you actually study it and the history of the planet and solar system and universe. Its actually extraordinary and beautiful.

Who said anything about stone? All of the needed material is in space in abundance.

Since we are are carbon based life forms and there is only one way carbon forms, as well as all heavy elements and that is through massive super nova star explosions that seed the universe with the ALL the elements, and created the material for the solar system to form and then us. You are made from star dust for a fact.

On the science side how did our solar system form and the Earth and other planets? Well skip the others planets for the moment, how did the Sun Earth and moon form, according to science?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
"evolution sucks"

Yet your here because of it. Every atom in your body and the elements like carbon formed by nucleosynthesis and the air you breath by the evolution of photosynthesis.

Since you believe in God, its to bad you have such views of God's work.

I believe in the evolution that based in ID and not the stupid one ( the inanimate stone)
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Can we build a building without making the blocks first, and should we make one block to make a building or we need more than one block, what if we need to make 100 buildings, how many blocks we need and what if millions.

So why we need to make the simple blocks first, why not just to make the buildings directly.

I hope this answer your question as why we need simpler things to make a more complex ones.


I answered below with the building blocks and carbon and life and your posts supports the science here "Can we build a building without making the blocks first,".

Is your God not omnipotent, why would a God like that need any reason to even think or build blocks, if it already knows everything and can do anything? Seems like your downplaying your own God's capabilities.

You do also know the second law of thermodynamics. Things get more disorder with time.
 
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