Snowflakes....designed or accidents of nature?

[`mud]

Outside of the perimeter of the source of the first cause ?
Ahhhhh.....some kind of wand that is !
That's a very large 'IF', and......'time' doesn't exist !
~
'mud

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God is the ground of being, without cause, with no beginning or end. "I am".

That is a cop out. What caused god?

It is very obvious that everything was designed and created.

Where? If everything is designed, why was the sun's rays designed in such a way as the be lethal without any filtering, and cancer inducing with prolonged exposure?

It sounds as if you think God is a human.

I realize if there is a god that god is not human. However, I am not giving any god any sort of credit for an "intelligent" design with so many of the horrid, nasty, violent, and devastating things are you are forced to accept as the design if you accept ID. If there is a designer, this designer obviously did not put much thought into our own design or we wouldn't have people with violent mental disorders. Empathy would be more prevalent. Testicles would be internal organs, and the rabbit's digestive system probably wouldn't be so terribly inefficient, and the panda would probably not have such a difficult diet.

 

[Nada]

That is a cop out. What caused god?

Where? If everything is designed, why was the sun's rays designed in such a way as the be lethal without any filtering, and cancer inducing with prolonged exposure?

I realize if there is a god that god is not human. However, I am not giving any god any sort of credit for an "intelligent" design with so many of the horrid, nasty, violent, and devastating things are you are forced to accept as the design if you accept ID. If there is a designer, this designer obviously did not put much thought into our own design or we wouldn't have people with violent mental disorders. Empathy would be more prevalent. Testicles would be internal organs, and the rabbit's digestive system probably wouldn't be so terribly inefficient, and the panda would probably not have such a difficult diet.

Well you would have to go back to the beginning of mans history and see what caused all of this.According to holy scripture of course.There is a reason for all of this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It sounds as if you think God is a human.A created being could never know the mind of the Grand creator.If God does exist, and created everything, why would you question such power or even begin to think you know what God knows.? It is very obvious that everything was designed and created.Like the snowflakes.A complex brain made from flesh does not just pop up out of nowhere.It did not evolve from an organism in the ocean.We are designed with set programs and chemical reactions that go off like clock work.This is not the result of evolution.Your conscience is designed to warn you of danger.It is a choice program.Our heart beats with out us doing it and breathing too.We have designed plumbing in us.Our eyes are one of the most complex things ever.Companies design the camera lenses after the eye.Planes take their designs from birds.So do cars for better aerodynamics.So the people of this world take ideas from Gods designs.Always have.The human mind was designed to think and create.We can think of something and create it.God gave us this gift.The chances of everything in our universe just magically appearing with all its complexities are so astronomical its ridiculous.Everything is perfectly aligned.

You don't accept evolution?

 

[`mud]

Moses' dream !
~
'mud

 

[Nietzsche]

I've got a question. Rather than trot out the tired "if God then why bad" arguments, how about we go to other things God designed? Natural phenomena, nothing related to human development. So we're cutting out the Holocaust, various wars, ect. I will be happy to grant that the majority of those things are our bad, and while I question why YHWH doesn't intervene, I can accept that those things don't come from him.

However.

Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes & Tsunamis. Are those especially designed by YHWH as well? With the same care & attention as attributed to his design of the humble snowflake?

 

[Nada]

I've got a question. Rather than trot out the tired "if God then why bad" arguments, how about we go to other things God designed? Natural phenomena, nothing related to human development. So we're cutting out the Holocaust, various wars, ect. I will be happy to grant that the majority of those things are our bad, and while I question why YHWH doesn't intervene, I can accept that those things don't come from him.

However.

Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes & Tsunamis. Are those especially designed by YHWH as well? With the same care & attention as attributed to his design of the humble snowflake?

Those natural disasters are just that.According to the holy scriptures God does not cause evil.He also has a set time for Judgment.These things that happen are just unfortunate occurrences.

 

[Nada]

I've got a question. Rather than trot out the tired "if God then why bad" arguments, how about we go to other things God designed? Natural phenomena, nothing related to human development. So we're cutting out the Holocaust, various wars, ect. I will be happy to grant that the majority of those things are our bad, and while I question why YHWH doesn't intervene, I can accept that those things don't come from him.

However.

Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes & Tsunamis. Are those especially designed by YHWH as well? With the same care & attention as attributed to his design of the humble snowflake?

I was trying to remember what we were talking about yesterday.I was supposed to PM you but I was lost, but now I'm found.Lol..

 

[Ouroboros]

Or every snowflake is produced from mechanisms built into nature by a designer par excellence.

Sure. Or the designer is immanent in nature, so design and designer are all one.

Thanks for the link....fascinating......

You're welcome.

 

[Nietzsche]

Those natural disasters are just that.According to the holy scriptures God does not cause evil.He also has a set time for Judgment.These things that happen are just unfortunate occurrences.

Wait.

A snowflake is designed by God. But a hurricane isn't? Why? A hurricane is not inherently bad. It's not inherently anything. It just happens to pass over where things live. Why one and not the other? If you're going to have an omnipotent, omnipresent deity, you attribute all things to him or none of them. God cannot be responsible for snow and yet not responsible for the blizzard it's part of.

 

[roger1440]

That is a cop out. What caused god?

God is the source of ALL that is. Beside him there is no other.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

According to the holy scriptures God does not cause evil.

In the book of Job, God not only gave Satan permission to be a devil, he encouraged it. If he doesn't cause it he is then by all means an accomplice and an accessory.

Those natural disasters are just that.According to the holy scriptures God does not cause evil.

Who says they are evil? And because some of these natural disasters play such an important role in maintaining local ecosystems (think of lightning causing a forest fire, which although destructive is necessary for life), why would god dilly-dally on about designing snow flakes while neglecting these things are necessary for the sustained continuation and equilibrium of life?
And what about volcanoes? The earth would be screwed without a molten iron core. That this magma erupts to the surface is a very normal and natural thing to happen. But is it evil, as it causes destruction? You described other "disasters" as evil and things that god does not cause. Yet these things are an integral part of the "design."

God is the source of ALL that is. Beside him there is no other.

But that does not answer the source of god. If there is an ultimate/original cause, setting the finish line at god is arbitrary, and is to intentionally limit your scope of knowledge.
So, what caused god?

 

[Nada]

Wait.

A snowflake is designed by God. But a hurricane isn't? Why? A hurricane is not inherently bad. It's not inherently anything. It just happens to pass over where things live. Why one and not the other? If you're going to have an omnipotent, omnipresent deity, you attribute all things to him or none of them. God cannot be responsible for snow and yet not responsible for the blizzard it's part of.

Well He created wind but He did not create it to kill us.He designed the snowflake but He did not intend to have blizzards and piled up snow.These are all a result of unbalance.This world is cursed because of mans rebellion in the garden of Eden, according to holy scripture of course.Hurricanes are loose tropical storms that catch speed over water.This occurs without Gods help.

 

[Nada]

In the book of Job, God not only gave Satan permission to be a devil, he encouraged it. If he doesn't cause it he is then by all means an accomplice and an accessory.

Who says they are evil? And because some of these natural disasters play such an important role in maintaining local ecosystems (think of lightning causing a forest fire, which although destructive is necessary for life), why would god dilly-dally on about designing snow flakes while neglecting these things are necessary for the sustained continuation and equilibrium of life?
And what about volcanoes? The earth would be screwed without a molten iron core. That this magma erupts to the surface is a very normal and natural thing to happen. But is it evil, as it causes destruction? You described other "disasters" as evil and things that god does not cause. Yet these things are an integral part of the "design."

But that does not answer the source of god. If there is an ultimate/original cause, setting the finish line at god is arbitrary, and is to intentionally limit your scope of knowledge.
So, what caused god?

God was no such thing.There is meaning to that story but many will never know.

 

[Nietzsche]

Well He created wind but He did not create it to kill us.He designed the snowflake but He did not intend to have blizzards and piled up snow.These are all a result of unbalance.This world is cursed because of mans rebellion in the garden of Eden, according to holy scripture of course.Hurricanes are loose tropical storms that catch speed over water.This occurs without Gods help.

Let me make sure I get this right;

God is the 'first cause' of all things due to being the inherent progenitor & designer of existence. But how these things interact...isn't his responsibility or work? He's only liable or involved in the harmless ramifications of his work, while the other things are just happenstance? Even though it flies in the fact of cause & effect? That is like arguing that just because you pulled the trigger you aren't liable for where the bullet ends up.

 

[Nada]

Let me make sure I get this right;

God is the 'first cause' of all things due to being the inherent progenitor & designer of existence. But how these things interact...isn't his responsibility or work? He's only liable or involved in the harmless ramifications of his work, while the other things are just happenstance? Even though it flies in the fact of cause & effect? That is like arguing that just because you pulled the trigger you aren't liable for where the bullet ends up.

But God did not pull any trigger.Thats my point.

 

[outhouse]

see what amazing things the Creator has made

Unsubstantiated personal opinion. Faith based at that.

 

[outhouse]

But God did not pull any trigger

Correct, the concept has done nothing.

There is nothing in nature you can with any credibility, say the concept has done.

 

[outhouse]

Most judge him without hearing all the evidence.

Its sad that most of the evidence is mythology, allegory, and metaphor.

 

[Nietzsche]

But God did not pull any trigger.Thats my point.

Yes he did. Every part of the gun & the bullet are his handiwork. In this case, weather systems are(I am grossly over-simplifying but bear with me) an amalgam of heat & water. Rain or snow, the clouds they fall from, the wind that blows them and the heat that strengthens them all come from God. The rotation of the earth(also God) causes the spinning motion. And when the cloud is too 'full', it deposits the water in one form or another. Lightning is another thing.

Assuming a designer, he must have set it up this way, because this is how it works. Life relies on it. If you want a world in perfect balance, Mars is a good exhibit. Then there's earthquakes, which are caused by the cooling of the earth(which God also did), so on so forth ad infinitum.