So God gives you a free pass...

[Sha'irullah]

I don't see myself as having any false sense of morality. I would not kill, I would not rape, I would not steal etc. I would imagine a drastic change in my life. I would become more apathetic to worldly affairs. I would travel and share my testimony for what it was worth. If there is a God and a Heaven and after this life I will be in that Heaven, there is not much point in anything else.

I would feel the same way except that given the hypothetical question I am not aware if this god casts people to hell temporarily for wrong doings or what. I need more specifics to come to that conclusion

 

[McBell]

Everything else you said was meaningless in most aspects but if you wish to know where I extract the definitions of normal and civilized I recommend you to open a dictionary.

Both words can differ given a different culture or location....

Civilized - 1. Bring (a place or people) to a stage of social, cultural, and moral development considered to be more advanced

2. Polite and well-mannered

Normal - 1. Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected



When an argument usually falls down to semantics I do not participate in it. I have said this countless times before and if you are relying on semantics then I will cease the debate.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sit...4&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8
Just to clarify, I have brought this issue up MANY times. This is my personal pet peeve

I do have a daft conclusion about as to why you are arguing with me.
You probably thought I was some sort of theist who held belief in heaven or hell and the necessity of their existence. You keep changing and contradicting your argument points that I cannot understand your reasoning.

You want to bow out that is fine with me.
I merely wanted you to define your terms.
You are the one getting ***** about semantics.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I don't see myself as having any false sense of morality. I would not kill, I would not rape, I would not steal etc. I would imagine a drastic change in my life. I would become more apathetic to worldly affairs. I would travel and share my testimony for what it was worth. If there is a God and a Heaven and after this life I will be in that Heaven, there is not much point in anything else.

How can you be so sure that you wouldn't? For example I'm sure a lot of murderers might have found it ridiculous to murder before finding what they saw as the perfect time to commit the act. Same with burglars, rapists, politicians, druggies...

My point is, a lot of criminals have said when they're innocent that they wouldn't do it. Not only with crime, but in daily life it works that way for regular things. "I'm never going to need this math class in the future..." or "I'm not going to change my vote." People can change their mind in such extreme situations, how do you know you wouldn't change your mind?

Simply asking, out of curiosity, how are you so sure that you wouldn't?

 

[The Bullfrog]

Let's say that one day, God comes down and says to you, "Look, I like you, so I'm going to give you a free pass to Heaven. You can do whatever you want, and you'll never be punished for it. Not in this life, not after you die. No matter what you do, you are guaranteed to get into Heaven." And he also proves to you beyond any doubt that he is God. So for the purposes of this thread, take it that it is actually God who is giving you this, not Satan in disguise or anything.

So, if you were given this assurance by God, would you go out and become a killer, thief, rapist, etc?

"Wise people, even though all laws were abolished, would still lead the same life. - Aristophanes"

Morality has always been rooted in knowledge and wisdom. Only those who are unwise and ignorant would believe that the absence of law would justify evil. We have a long history of ethical philosophy, which gives us reasons plenty, beyond a reward of heaven, to live life justly.

Atheist turn to these lines of reasoning, either by reading the great minds in the history of ethical philosophy or by reasoning them on their own. The wise ones have already made the choice to live morally without fear of punishment from God.

Theist have faith that God is wise and good. Would they think that God would say "Thou shalt not kill" simply because it will lead to hell? Or did God say it because God is wise and he knows it is unethical to kill? If the theist truly had faith in God, and not just belief of God, than they follow God because they trust God to lead them correctly. Not because they fear punishment. Do we think that God wants people to be moral out of fear or promise of reward? Or because, in his wisdom, he knows it is what is best for the individual and the whole? So the wise theist as well would act morally.

I can only concluded that only those who are truly unwise and more animal than human would take such a promise from God as justification to do evil. Atheist or theist, it does not matter, wisdom is what makes us ethical.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

"Wise people, even though all laws were abolished, would still lead the same life. - Aristophanes"

Morality has always been rooted in knowledge and wisdom. Only those who are unwise and ignorant would believe that the absence of law would justify evil. We have a long history of ethical philosophy, which gives us reasons plenty, beyond a reward of heaven, to live life justly.

But what evil would there be in the absence of law?

 

[The Bullfrog]

But what evil would there be in the absence of law?

The same evil which is the reason we have laws for. Humans did not come into this world with laws, they created laws because they saw a need to protect the good from the evil.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus already killed hell and death

Introducing new, arbitrary criteria for who does and doesn't go to Hell is not the same as "killing Hell".

 

[Yahyaa Waahid]

*coughabrahamcough*

Peace.
Yahyaa Waahid

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The same evil which is the reason we have laws for. Humans did not come into this world with laws, they created laws because they saw a need to protect the good from the evil.

I agree that laws were created on the basis of what certain people found to be evil, but without the law in place, what would determine what is evil?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I have no desire to rape, steal, or kill, without having a belief in a god or an afterlife. A god telling me it would be okay to do those things would have no impact on my lack of desire to do them.

 

[Me Myself]

I agree that laws were created on the basis of what certain people found to be evil, but without the law in place, what would determine what is evil?

Without institutional formal laws, people would still have inner laws, influenced by culture and the way they were raised.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I have no desire to rape, steal, or kill, without having a belief in a god or an afterlife. A god telling me it would be okay to do those things would have no impact on my lack of desire to do them.

But you also have to consider, at least if I read this OP correctly, this god would not only help you out in the afterlife, but in this life itself (so you would not get "caught')

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Without institutional formal laws, people would still have inner laws, influenced by culture and the way they were raised.

But the question applies to laws in general.

 

[Curious George]

How can you be so sure that you wouldn't? For example I'm sure a lot of murderers might have found it ridiculous to murder before finding what they saw as the perfect time to commit the act. Same with burglars, rapists, politicians, druggies...

My point is, a lot of criminals have said when they're innocent that they wouldn't do it. Not only with crime, but in daily life it works that way for regular things. "I'm never going to need this math class in the future..." or "I'm not going to change my vote." People can change their mind in such extreme situations, how do you know you wouldn't change your mind?

Simply asking, out of curiosity, how are you so sure that you wouldn't?

I cannot be sure. The OP asked for what I thought I would do. I do not see a reasonable link to that chain of action, so I do not think that I would pursue those actions. this is separate from having a false sense of morality in my mind. And while it is similar to I will never use x, it is not quite the same as saying I will do x. Once you have knowledge you are arguably using it in other aspects of your life. But I am reasonably confident that I won't do x. And that is all the certainty that I can provide.

 

[The Bullfrog]

I agree that laws were created on the basis of what certain people found to be evil, but without the law in place, what would determine what is evil?

As I posted morality is set in wisdom and knowledge. Goodness is found rooted in reason, education, and compassion.

 

[McBell]

I agree that laws were created on the basis of what certain people found to be evil, but without the law in place, what would determine what is evil?

What determined what was evil that the laws were based on?

 

[nazz]

Without institutional formal laws, people would still have inner laws, influenced by culture and the way they were raised.

Yes, I tried to point that out earlier. If you were raised in a country where religion is a part of the culture you've been influenced by those moral values instilled by it whether you realize it or not. Often these are even codified as law.

I think another thing not being considered is that it is often not so much that belief in an ethical system tied to a religion restrains one from transgressing it as much as it it gives one strength to observe it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Let's say that one day, God comes down and says to you, "Look, I like you, so I'm going to give you a free pass to Heaven. You can do whatever you want, and you'll never be punished for it. Not in this life, not after you die. No matter what you do, you are guaranteed to get into Heaven." And he also proves to you beyond any doubt that he is God. So for the purposes of this thread, take it that it is actually God who is giving you this, not Satan in disguise or anything.

So, if you were given this assurance by God, would you go out and become a killer, thief, rapist, etc?

Even if there is a god and he did give me a "free pass", I would still hold to empathy, reason, honor, integrity, and self-worth. Neither a desire for reward or a fear of punishment should be a prerequisite for having a conscience.

 

[thau]

Let's say that one day, God comes down and says to you, "Look, I like you, so I'm going to give you a free pass to Heaven. You can do whatever you want, and you'll never be punished for it. Not in this life, not after you die. No matter what you do, you are guaranteed to get into Heaven." And he also proves to you beyond any doubt that he is God. So for the purposes of this thread, take it that it is actually God who is giving you this, not Satan in disguise or anything.

So, if you were given this assurance by God, would you go out and become a killer, thief, rapist, etc?

1. God does not give that kind of a free pass, just in case you were wondering.

2. Some who might not “make it” do not have to be guilty of such heinous crimes against their fellow man as you might think accompanies those in the nether world.

3. Alleister Crowley, famous occultist from Old England summed it all up (almost innocently) for the losing side: “The whole of the law shall be do as thou wilt.”

4. The Lord’s teachings do not focus on your idea of sin so much as what the Last Judgment focuses on. And on that score, your whole little test fails. Matthew 25: 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Benoni]

1. God does not give that kind of a free pass, just in case you were wondering.

2. Some who might not “make it” do not have to be guilty of such heinous crimes against their fellow man as you might think accompanies those in the nether world.

3. Alleister Crowley, famous occultist from Old England summed it all up (almost innocently) for the losing side: “The whole of the law shall be do as thou wilt.”

4. The Lord’s teachings do not focus on your idea of sin so much as what the Last Judgment focuses on. And on that score, your whole little test fails. Matthew 25: 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The Lord was speaking about Gehenna which is spiritual fires not physical. No where when the word Gehenna is used in the NT is Jesus speaking to the lost. Only to believers.