So... is God incompetent or uncaring? Which of the two?

[Breathe]

Try reading the words in the posts.

And try with mine. It helps when you're told there's more to religion than "a man in the clouds" to respond with something of sense, as opposed to deciding I've dismissed you based on your lack of belief.

So how do you define the difference between the action these people are taking in the real world and their religious position.

The foundations of their religious texts.
If the religion says A, and its disciples say B, then the disciples are wrong, as A is not B. Simple really.

Why would they not be just displaying their religious position rather than doing something completely random?

Multiple reasons: egotism, change, confusion, differences in opinions, change to the world that, when the religion became codified, did not exist being some of them.

Also, if the actions of institutions are so irrelevant, then why have them?

Centres of learning, of preaching, to keep the faith "correct", and many other reasons, I guess. That doesn't always happen.

 

[sandandfoam]

This isn't really about my own annoyance. It's just something that came to me when I was thinking about it. Other than the two theories given in the OP, I can't come to another clear conclusion and neither can anybody else on this thread, it would seem.

While I can come to no conclusion myself regarding suffering I see no reason to accept yours.
Can you offer me one?

 

[Breathe]

This statement renders part of the OP incorrect if the person who made the OP accepts what you are saying. So you are wrong Odion. Doesn't matter what you say.

Always the way, my friend.

 

[predavlad]

I don't have any special knowledge, it's just common religious knowledge that members of some particular faiths have due to their knowledge of God.

So if someone has made up their mind that God is uncaring or evil or something else due to unpleasant events, then that's because of lack of knowledge, more specifically, religious knowledge.

Why do you assume that the people who think that god is evil lack religious knowledge ? There are priests who after 30 years renounced their religion - you can't tell me that they don't have religious knowledge

Someone mentioned earlier the story about the 2 rabbi's, and just wanted to say what I got from it: two people looking at the same event can reach totally different conclusions, the trick is to find out why.

This raises 2 thought exercises, one for each of us. For you it would be "Why do people renounce their religion after 10, 30 or even 40 years of being religious?".

And for me is : "Why are people religious after all the crap religion has done?".

 

[waitasec]

Did you perchance consider that this evil is due to free will,which God gave us for higher purposes? That there may be a final reckoning? You seem to have the presupposition that you know everything there is to know about evil, when it fact you know little.

hmmm.
is it the free will of a new born baby to be born without the ability to empathize and turns out to be a jeffery dahmer?


please...

 

[ryanam]

This statement renders part of the OP incorrect if the person who made the OP accepts what you are saying. So you are wrong Odion. Doesn't matter what you say.

I can't find the post which states he was wrong...

I can see lots of questions following the statement, no submissions that he's actually wrong though.

 

[sandandfoam]

Someone mentioned earlier the story about the 2 rabbi's, and just wanted to say what I got from it: two people looking at the same event can reach totally different conclusions, the trick is to find out why.

I agree with your conclusion, I took the same from the story. I imagine there are as many reasons why 2 people can look at the same thing and draw different conclusions as there are people.

This raises 2 thought exercises, one for each of us. For you it would be "Why do people renounce their religion after 10, 30 or even 40 years of being religious?".

And for me is : "Why are people religious after all the crap religion has done?"

As I see it, religion is not for 'the next life', it is for this one.
I don't believe in truths with a capital 'T'. I can never break free from subjectivity, whatever way I turn there is no objective reference point, all is in flux, hence, for me, it's about living well, being happy and doing no harm.

Religion helps me with this. It may well all be in my head. But so is everything else.

 

[Gharib]

I can't find the post which states he was wrong...

I can see lots of questions following the statement, no submissions that he's actually wrong though.

I didn't say that you called his statement wrong. However, you mentioned in the OP that these kids who are dying will suffer in hell for their belief in the wrong God as you put it.

Islam teaches contrary to what you said. But you aren't going to accept what I just said.

 

[idav]

Is this part of gods original plan?

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

On one hand there are more people being born than people dying.

On the other hand most people die of diseases.

List of causes of death by rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is that if everyone got cured there would be no more room for us and then we would just have a higher numbers of malnutrition and starvation.

The nature of the universe is that things change and evolve. Matter and energy doesn't really die out. Life and death isn't really about good vs. bad.

 

[Gharib]

Let me be more specific: Have you ever considered converting to another religion due to debates here?

I haven't had such debates where it was a matter of which religion is for real, well not in-depth debates anyway. It's always been about proving one aspect of my/their religion wrong.

 

[Gharib]

Why do you assume that the people who think that god is evil lack religious knowledge ? There are priests who after 30 years renounced their religion - you can't tell me that they don't have religious knowledge

I didn't assume, I know due to what was said. You said yourself you've read the Bible and parts of the Qur'an. You do know that there's more to Christianity and Islam than just what you personally understand from reading their scriptures, right?

You don't understand the wisdom, there is a difference between just having knowledge and understanding the wisdom behind that knowledge.

And don't worry about the 2 Rabbi's.

 

[Tarheeler]

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

Like Odion, I'd have to say "none of the above".

What you've presented is a false dichotomy based on a vary narrow view of theodicy.
It requires acceptance of a specific view of God and what is required of Him, and it ignores the beliefs of just about every religion. Christians are the only group, at least that I'm familiar with, that tend to use that point-of-view, and even then it is far from universal.

Personally, I don't see the requirement for God to cease suffering in the world. While it might be "all part of the original plan", as you put it, it doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. What I do believe is that God created a system that is capable of working autonomously for the most part; once the physical laws were set, life and nature took over.

We could get into a whole bunch of hypothetical discussions, but it would all mean the same thing: there are other ways to look at suffering than what you have proposed.

If human's have free will which is likely the explanation for all of this, then what's the point? Is god there only for people to think they have an explanation to the creation of the universe? Does this god guide the hand of those chosen few? Or are we all left to our own devices for god to sit back and watch?

Considering that the example you gave centered largely around natural disaster, could explain what role you foresaw free will playing in the responses?

 

[Storm]

My knowledge of theism was dismissed based on my disbelief of it. I have no interest in making a rebuttal to that.

No, your 'knowledge' (or lack thereof) was dismissed based on your presentation.

Your op revealed a profound ignorance of theology. I have no interest in rebutting infantile notions of Superman God.

If you'd like to get into some real theodicy, I'd be happy to respond to a better argument.

 

[waitasec]

Perhaps you could address my thoughts in the post above?

How is Ozzy Osborne still alive when people who live a healthy lifestyle die of all sorts of illnesses. Where is the fairness? Taking the most basic approach and applying an omnipotent God, I cannot reason how healthy people die before those who abuse their body like crazy. It makes so little sense to see the healthy suffer (along with their familes) whilst the abusers propser.

why are you picking on ozzy...

what about keith richards?


what would be really cool is if the true believer never ever got sick, since they were washed with the blood of the lamb...so they say.

 

[sandandfoam]

What of growth that emerges from suffering?
How does that (or does it?) fit into the argument?

 

[waitasec]

What of growth that emerges from suffering?
How does that (or does it?) fit into the argument?

what type of suffering are you talking about?

needless suffering
or suffering from consequences of ones actions?

 

[sandandfoam]

what type of suffering are you talking about?

needless suffering
or suffering from consequences of ones actions?

Either, I'm thinking specifically of post traumatic growth.

 

[Storm]

Why do you assume that the people who think that god is evil lack religious knowledge ? There are priests who after 30 years renounced their religion - you can't tell me that they don't have religious knowledge

I can't speak for eselam, but I personally don't. I think the God described by many Christians & Muslims is evil, myself.

That said, there's more to both religions that the extremists, or even conservatives, and a HELL of a lot more to religion as a whole. It gets my goat when people lump all God concepts into one, and seriously ****** me off when they choose the most petty, immature concept available as the Standard God (TM)!

This raises 2 thought exercises, one for each of us. For you it would be "Why do people renounce their religion after 10, 30 or even 40 years of being religious?".

Because that's where their paths lead them. Simple.

And for me is : "Why are people religious after all the crap religion has done?".

Because "religion" doesn't do ANYTHING. People do, and the Buggs Bunny Law* never fails.

* "No matter where you go, people are people... and you know what stinkers they are."

 

[ryanam]

No, your 'knowledge' (or lack thereof) was dismissed based on your presentation.

Your op revealed a profound ignorance of theology. I have no interest in rebutting infantile notions of Superman God.

If you'd like to get into some real theodicy, I'd be happy to respond to a better argument.

It's always the same story. Ridicule the person asking the questions without giving an actual ounce of your own opinion.

 

[Gharib]

It's always the same story . Ridicule the person asking the questions without giving an actual ounce of your own opinion.

Mate don't get offended we are a tough crowd, as you can see.

If you are serious about this topic, say so and I will post something of relevance. Sound OK?