So... is God incompetent or uncaring? Which of the two?

[CynthiaCypher]

God is neither incompetent or uncaring or maybe not. God is complicated.

 

[waitasec]

Why do people believe suffering and death are bad things?

'cause it's not fun...


"all i wanna do, is have some fun, until the sun comes up over santa monica blvd"




seriously though, that is a good question.

 

[Koldo]

Why do people believe suffering and death are bad things?

Suffering stands in opposition to happiness.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Suffering stands in opposition to happiness.

And you think a constant state of happiness would be a good thing? I don't think so.

 

[Koldo]

And you think a constant state of happiness would be a good thing? I don't think so.

Please do tell me why it wouldn't be a good thing.
And do not give me contigent reasons.

 

[waitasec]

And you think a constant state of happiness would be a good thing? I don't think so.

i agree. we create the reality we need.

our minds are not set up to live in one constant state, if our minds were set up that way, there would be no progress.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Please do tell me why it wouldn't be a good thing.
And do not give me contigent reasons.

1. It's not natural

2. Most people do their best work when there is some sort of challenge to their well being or state of mind

 

[Storm]

I wasn't looking for education thanks.

Ah, so you were lying when you said

Let's not forget that I haven't asserted any kind of knowledge of this subject... didn't really take a rocket scientist to work that out considering I was asking the question in order to gain knowledge in the very first place.

?

Just opinion. What you say isn't factual, as much as you obviously think it is.

Actually, it is. Unless you want to claim that there are no God-concepts outside of conservative Christianity & Islam and theodicy is simple and intuitive.

I don't remember criticizing YOU for a belief that you don't hold, or anyone for that matter.

You're right, and I apologize.

You can see the OP from the thread list... if you don't believe it or don't have an opinion on that specific belief, don't even enter.

1) It's a public subforum, and not your place to tell anyone not to post.
2) I have plenty of opinions, which I shared. You just didn't like them.

What were you expecting? Certainly not criticism! Why did you post in debates if you didn't want one? There's a DIR for non-believers if you just want to hear how right you are. :sarcastic

You just wrote about the apparent views classical theist's take on a personal god and another bit about seeing things from god's perspective.

No, I wrote that there are other ideas. MANY other ideas. Once again, "read the words."

You're talking about knowing god to the level of his 'perspective'. Can you explain how this is done?

Key word: "attempt."

 

[Storm]

Please do tell me why it wouldn't be a good thing.
And do not give me contigent reasons.

Well it depends on which one values more: knowledge or blissful ignorance. I side with knowledge.

 

[Koldo]

i agree. we create the reality we need.

our minds are not set up to live in one constant state, if our minds were set up that way, there would be no progress.

1) What is the ultimate purpose of progress if not to make us happier?
2) The omnimax God supposedly is/can be happy, right?
3) Why do our minds have to necessarily be set up in a way that if we feel happy we don't make progress?

 

[Koldo]

1. It's not natural

Contingent reason. It could be.

2. Most people do their best work when there is some sort of challenge to their well being or state of mind

Contingent reason. This doesn't have to be the case.

 

[Koldo]

Well it depends on which one values more: knowledge or blissful ignorance. I side with knowledge.

Do you mean to say that if one feels continually happy then knowledge won't be gained?

If this is the case, then it is a false dichotomy because our current state is contingent. If not, could you further elaborate?

 

[Storm]

Do you mean to say that if one feels continually happy then knowledge won't be gained?

If this is the case, then it is a false dichotomy because our current state is contingent. If not, could you further elaborate?

No, I mean suffering opens up new topics to learn, and "all knowledge is worth having."

There's also the issue of moral development. If there's no option for evil, can anything truly be called good?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

God is both incompetent and uncaring, he is created in our image after all. The reverse is just as true though.

 

[waitasec]

1) What is the ultimate purpose of progress if not to make us happier?
2) The omnimax God supposedly is/can be happy, right?
3) Why do our minds have to necessarily be set up in a way that if we feel happy we don't make progress?

1...the ultimate purpose is motion
2...says who?
3...because we are curious...why ask why?

 

[Koldo]

No, I mean suffering opens up new topics to learn, and "all knowledge is worth having."

If you consider an omnimax God that has all knowledge there is, then it seems pretty viable for him to create beings that already know all things to be known about suffering. Either way, it is rather vague what sort of knowledge there is to be acquired through this manner other than knowing how to avoid suffering ( which would be useless ).

There's also the issue of moral development. If there's no option for evil, can anything truly be called good?

Good would still be good. It just wouldn't be recognized as such.
Anyway, it is hard to explain why our current ammount of evil would be necessary. It is possible, given one has the power to do so, create immortal bodies that can't be harmed. In this sort of world, stealing could still exist as evil.

 

[Koldo]

1...the ultimate purpose is motion
2...says who?
3...because we are curious...why ask why?

1) Motion in what sense? Wouldn't moving bodies do the trick then?
2) His omnipotence says so.
3) This is contingent. We don't have to be this way.

 

[Orias]

The biggest problem I have is that people give God this characteristic or that characteristic, then continue to say this God does not exist or people are irrational for believing in it.

The errors should be self evident here, but then again I guess I should leave it up to all of you to tell me what I believe in, since the only people that are describing God seem to be the one's that lack belief in it.

Not to say that any of those who believe in God are any more competent or descriptive of him, just that its easy to put a hand molded vase on a pedestal and then smash it if you like.

Its much, much harder, to piece it back together and see the reason for such an idols creation.

 

[waitasec]

1) Motion in what sense? Wouldn't moving bodies do the trick then?
2) His omnipotence says so.
3) This is contingent. We don't have to be this way.

1... motion in the sense that our minds cannot accept stagnation. but that isn't saying people don't stagnate...i know a few 70 yr olds who act as if they were 10..., know what i mean..as they continually repeat the same mistakes over and over and suffer because they haven't moved on.

2....i need that claim to be verified accurate in order for me to accept it...(something i've learned through suffering)

3....you are right, no we don't... hence #1

 

[Aquitaine]

9 million children die each year before they reach the age of 5.

An Asian tsunami (2002 variety which killed over 250,000 people) happening every 10 days killing children only under 5. That's around 24,000 a day, 1,000 an hour, 17 or so per minute. By the time I finish this post a handful will have died in agony, scared for their life.

Other factors involved in this horrendous process are things like the parents. Many of these parents believe in a god of some description and will be praying for their children to live or, in many cases because of the suffering involved, to die. Their prayers will not be answered.

Is this part of gods original plan?

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

The fact that, under many views, these children will be going straight to hell because of where they were born or because they were told to worship the wrong god is almost as bad.

If human's have free will which is likely the explanation for all of this, then what's the point? Is god there only for people to think they have an explanation to the creation of the universe? Does this god guide the hand of those chosen few? Or are we all left to our own devices for god to sit back and watch?

If by "God" you mean the God of the Monotheisms (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc) then the answer is simple: God probably doesn't exist.

Hope that helps,

Paul Rusco.