So... is God incompetent or uncaring? Which of the two?

[Koldo]

Did you perchance consider that this evil is due to free will,which God gave us for higher purposes? That there may be a final reckoning? You seem to have the presupposition that you know everything there is to know about evil, when it fact you know little.

This goes beyond free will though.
Consider the diseases and natural disasters which are not caused intentfully by humans. Why doesn't God prevent them?

 

[ryanam]

Something that does not exist cannot be neither incompetent or uncaring.

This is the stance that I take... I'm interested in understanding the views of those who do believe that this entity does exist.

That's not really freedom

Indeed... free will doesn't seem so free after all.

 

[Student of X]

This goes beyond free will though.
Consider the diseases and natural disasters which are not caused intentfully by humans. Why doesn't God prevent them?

Because they are caused by the co-creators...namely us. The intent of the ego is to maintain the illusion of separation, and as long as we allow that we allow the consequences.

 

[darkendless]

Because they are caused by the co-creators...namely us. The intent of the ego is to maintain our illusion of separation, and as long as we allow that we allow the consequences.

I would very much like to hear how we create natural disasters. A great example would be earthquakes which are caused by tectonic movement entiely beyond human control.

 

[Koldo]

Because they are caused by the co-creators...namely us. The intent of the ego is to maintain the illusion of separation, and as long as we allow that we allow the consequences.

I would very much like to hear how we create natural disasters. A great example would be earthquakes which are caused by tectonic movement entiely beyond human control.

My answer to Student of X is exactly what darkendless said.

 

[ryanam]

Because they are caused by the co-creators...namely us.

Suggesting that human beings are the cause of natural disasters goes against probably every piece of observable evidence in existence and is not viable considering the visibly obvious.

This requires explanation to be taken seriously.

 

[Storm]

Or option C, neither and you need to look beyond simple "man in the clouds" theism. Then again, I've never met any anti-theists whom I've considered to be knowledgeable in either religion or theism anyway. Just my observation from living in a mostly irreligious area and online.


I've never heard anyone say young children go to Hell, neither Muslim or Christian, ever. And these are the only two religions who believe in eternal Hell. Any Muslim who claims this is going against Islamic teaching.

So your "under many views" claim sounds like you've pulled it from somewhere else.

^This.^

 

[Student of X]

I would very much like to hear how we create natural disasters.

If you desired to know with your whole being, then you would probably already know. Since your being is not whole, since it is divided and conflicted and opposes itself, any answer I give you will be irrationally opposed by your ego-self...and you will fail to understand.

That's why I don't bother talking to people much here anymore. Actually I'm seriously thinking about closing my account. Too many people here are too limited to ego-consciousness. I just can't stoop to that level anymore.

If you want to know then you can start by reading the books I linked to, and as you read them pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. Don't let your ego-self stop you.

 

[Koldo]

If you desired to know with your whole being, then you would probably already know. Since your being is not whole, since it is divided and conflicted and opposes itself, any answer I give you will be opposed by your ego-self...and you will fail to understand.

That's why I don't bother talking to people much here anymore. Actually I'm seriously thinking about closing my account. Too many people here are too limited to ego-consciousness. I just can't stoop to that level anymore.

If you want to know then you can start by reading the books I linked to, and as you read them pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. Don't let your ego-self stop you.

Why do you reply when you are unwilling to explain your argument?

 

[Student of X]

Why do you reply when you are unwilling to explain your argument?

The books I linked to do a better job as a place to start. I am not going to spend all day trying to explain something to people who probably aren't ready to learn when there is material out there already that can do a better job. But I will spend a few minutes making a couple of small posts and recommending good books that I've read personally. If that isn't good enough, then ts.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

You believe we're not separate individuals? Can you give reason for that?

What separates ourselves from each other and the rest of the universe is our consciousness. Our discriminating senses gather specific data, create models, then measure these models against each other to create the reality we know. Remove this mechanism, and there is no separation.

We see and feel distance between one another despite our knowledge that we are breathing and swimming through the same air as one another.

Those who take this form of mystical philosophy seriously understand that life is a part of the conscious universe which may as well be called "God"--it is omnipotent and omniscient since it is essentially everything and no-thing. Therefore, God is Mother Teresa and Hitler, Wolf and Sheep, Parasite and Tree, Excrement and Water.

God is uncaring and incompetent, because It is also the reverse.

 

[sandandfoam]

9 million children die each year before they reach the age of 5.

An Asian tsunami (2002 variety which killed over 250,000 people) happening every 10 days killing children only under 5. That's around 24,000 a day, 1,000 an hour, 17 or so per minute. By the time I finish this post a handful will have died in agony, scared for their life.

Other factors involved in this horrendous process are things like the parents. Many of these parents believe in a god of some description and will be praying for their children to live or, in many cases because of the suffering involved, to die. Their prayers will not be answered.

Is this part of gods original plan?

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

The fact that, under many views, these children will be going straight to hell because of where they were born or because they were told to worship the wrong god is almost as bad.

If human's have free will which is likely the explanation for all of this, then what's the point? Is god there only for people to think they have an explanation to the creation of the universe? Does this god guide the hand of those chosen few? Or are we all left to our own devices for god to sit back and watch?

I read a story somewhere about two Rabbi's in a Nazi death camp who were witness to a long line of people being sent to their murder. Many of the victims they saw went to their end praying. One Rabbi lost his faith as a result of his experience and was reported as saying to the other, 'How can you witness this and believe in God?' to which the reply was offered ' How can you witness it and not?'

There is terrible suffering in the world. I have no idea why. However, in times of suffering, for many, myself included, there is strength, hope and solace in God.

 

[Breathe]

I'm not surprised I was met with silence despite being the first person to reply.

 

[ryanam]

I read a story somewhere about two Rabbi's in a Nazi death camp who were witness to a long line of people being sent to their murder. Many of the victims they saw went to their end praying. One Rabbi lost his faith as a result of his experience and was reported as saying to the other, 'How can you witness this and believe in God?' to which the reply was offered ' How can you witness it and not?'

There is terrible suffering in the world. I have no idea why. However, in times of suffering, for many, myself included, there is strength, hope and solace in God.

Maybe I'm missing the point there, but in your view, how does the 'How can you witness it and not?' comment give any credence to the other Rabbi's stance?

To me, that translates to "How can you see all this death and bloodshed and not believe that it was created by god?"

Which, in turn translates into exactly what the point of the OP was... God is malevolent or indifferent.

 

[Gharib]

@Ryanam

Your lack of knowledge prevents you from understanding issues like these. And even if someone was to enlighten you on this matter, I hardly believe that you would accept anything other than that which conforms to your beliefs and liking.

After writing the above, I decided to read your whole post to see how right I am in what I've said. It is a tad an understatement but overall it seems I've nailed it.

 

[Student of X]

@Ryanam

Your lack of knowledge prevents you from understanding issues like these. And even if someone was to enlighten you on this matter, I hardly believe that you would accept anything other than that which conforms to your beliefs and liking.

After writing the above, I decided to read your whole post to see how right I am in what I've said. It is a tad an understatement but overall it seems I've nailed it.

It seems that the same could be said about most people here, especially the unbelievers, and I am questioning the usefulness of this forum. I think I'll try again to leave. The problem is sooner or later I get bored and curious and log back in...

 

[predavlad]

If you desired to know with your whole being, then you would probably already know. Since your being is not whole, since it is divided and conflicted and opposes itself, any answer I give you will be irrationally opposed by your ego-self...and you will fail to understand.

That's why I don't bother talking to people much here anymore. Actually I'm seriously thinking about closing my account. Too many people here are too limited to ego-consciousness. I just can't stoop to that level anymore.

If you want to know then you can start by reading the books I linked to, and as you read them pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. Don't let your ego-self stop you.

I almost took you seriously for a moment, until I figured out that everything you wrote is white noise. And you consider yourself superior to others because your think your white noise has some deep meaning to it. Well, it doesn't. And the best way to explain how other people see you (well, at least me) is in the reply Sam Harris gave in this 3 minute video :

[youtube]WwG9pDNSAXA[/youtube]
Sam Harris delivers like a comedian - YouTube

I could try to explain why everything you said is full of crap, but

any answer I give you will be irrationally opposed by your ego-self

 

[ryanam]

Or option C, neither and you need to look beyond simple "man in the clouds" theism. Then again, I've never met any anti-theists whom I've considered to be knowledgeable in either religion or theism anyway. Just my observation from living in a mostly irreligious area and online.


I've never heard anyone say young children go to Hell, neither Muslim or Christian, ever. And these are the only two religions who believe in eternal Hell. Any Muslim who claims this is going against Islamic teaching.

So your "under many views" claim sounds like you've pulled it from somewhere else.

My knowledge of theism was dismissed based on my disbelief of it. I have no interest in making a rebuttal to that.

Your opinion that it's not a Christian view to believe that those who believe in the incorrect god due to time period or geographic location has been proven wrong so often, historically... It was only in the 14th century that Thomas More was burning Londoners alive for owning a copy of the bible in their own language. Was it the view of the church that these people would go to heaven?

 

[ryanam]

@Ryanam

Your lack of knowledge prevents you from understanding issues like these. And even if someone was to enlighten you on this matter, I hardly believe that you would accept anything other than that which conforms to your beliefs and liking.

After writing the above, I decided to read your whole post to see how right I am in what I've said. It is a tad an understatement but overall it seems I've nailed it.

Thanks for your input.

At no point have I attempted to express my own knowledge of any of the issues we're talking about here.

I'm asking questions because I want to know more. Then I ask more questions. Then more.

If this sounds like I'm claiming to know more about the cosmos and god, then you've misunderstood my posts.

 

[ryanam]

@Ryanam

Your lack of knowledge prevents you from understanding issues like these. And even if someone was to enlighten you on this matter, I hardly believe that you would accept anything other than that which conforms to your beliefs and liking.

After writing the above, I decided to read your whole post to see how right I am in what I've said. It is a tad an understatement but overall it seems I've nailed it.

Help me to understand then. That's why I'm here.