So... is God incompetent or uncaring? Which of the two?

[Koldo]

What separates ourselves from each other and the rest of the universe is our consciousness. Our discriminating senses gather specific data, create models, then measure these models against each other to create the reality we know. Remove this mechanism, and there is no separation.

We see and feel distance between one another despite our knowledge that we are breathing and swimming through the same air as one another.

Those who take this form of mystical philosophy seriously understand that life is a part of the conscious universe which may as well be called "God"--it is omnipotent and omniscient since it is essentially everything and no-thing. Therefore, God is Mother Teresa and Hitler, Wolf and Sheep, Parasite and Tree, Excrement and Water.

God is uncaring and incompetent, because It is also the reverse.

You could have simply said: I am a pantheist.

 

[Gharib]

It seems that the same could be said about most people here, especially the unbelievers, and I am questioning the usefulness of this forum. I think I'll try again to leave. The problem is sooner or later I get bored and curious and log back in...

True, they accuse us of being closed minded and not open to new ideas, and in reality there is no point in arguing against someone who has already established that they are better than you in many ways than one.

Theists are a joke to them, so how could they take us seriously and it's not like anything we say is logical, it doesn't conform to their level of elitist logic anyway.

(don't mean that for all atheist/unbelievers)

 

[sandandfoam]

Maybe I'm missing the point there, but in your view, how does the 'How can you witness it and not?' comment give any credence to the other Rabbi's stance?

To me, that translates to "How can you see all this death and bloodshed and not believe that it was created by god?"

Which, in turn translates into exactly what the point of the OP was... God is malevolent or indifferent.

The point I take from the second Rabbi's stance is that when he saw the faith of these people on their way to their death he wondered how one could witness such faith and doubt.

 

[Gharib]

Thanks for your input.

At no point have I attempted to express my own knowledge of any of the issues we're talking about here.

I'm asking questions because I want to know more. Then I ask more questions. Then more.

If this sounds like I'm claiming to know more about the cosmos and god, then you've misunderstood my posts.

Help me to understand then. That's why I'm here.

My friend, I am only saying what I see. From those 2 above statements I see that you are being dishonest. Don't believe me? Read below, compare the 2 bold statements above to your own statement made moments ago in the OP.

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

 

[predavlad]

@Ryanam

Your lack of knowledge prevents you from understanding issues like these. And even if someone was to enlighten you on this matter, I hardly believe that you would accept anything other than that which conforms to your beliefs and liking.

After writing the above, I decided to read your whole post to see how right I am in what I've said. It is a tad an understatement but overall it seems I've nailed it.

I'll answer this because me and Ryanam have fairly similar opinions.

What kind of knowledge, about religion or physics ? I'm neither a religious scholar, nor a physicist.

But I have a basic understanding of both. I like reading books about physics/cosmology, and although I can't really follow/understand everything - I can understand the implications of most of the recent breakthroughs in this field.

About religion, I've been having conversations with religious people for the past 2-3 years, probably a lot more. I like to read books about religion (and no, not just books by well known atheists like Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins - but by theists as well, for example Kenneth Miller), and I read the Bible (as both a theist and atheist) and most of the Quran.

So what special knowledge do you have access to and I don't ? This is something that baffles me.

 

[Breathe]

My knowledge of theism was dismissed based on my disbelief of it. I have no interest in making a rebuttal to that.

So you openly admit to knowing almost nothing about theism? Good to know. It's easier to ridicule something if you have a lovely little straw man and don't want to accept other versions of it.

Your opinion that it's not a Christian view to believe that those who believe in the incorrect god due to time period or geographic location has been proven wrong so often, historically... It was only in the 14th century that Thomas More was burning Londoners alive for owning a copy of the bible in their own language. Was it the view of the church that these people would go to heaven?

The actions of institutions are not the same as the same as the belief of the religion and to think otherwise is laughable.

If we had 10,000 years of Muslims claiming that children who died who were not born to Muslim parents would go to Hell, it still would not be an Islamic position.

 

[ryanam]

My friend, I am only saying what I see. From those 2 above statements I see that you are being dishonest. Don't believe me? Read below, compare the 2 bold statements above to your own statement made moments ago in the OP.

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

Anyone reading that and actually thinking about it can see that it's not a submission of knowledge. It's my opinion of the only two possible alternatives. Based on the fact that not a single person has given a straight forward answer yet, proves that the ultimatum has some substance.

 

[predavlad]

The actions of institutions are not the same as the same as the belief of the religion and to think otherwise is laughable.

If we had 10,000 years of Muslims claiming that children who died who were not born to Muslim parents would go to Hell, it still would not be an Islamic position.

But the actions of religious institutions are directly dictated by the core of the religion. So if religious institutions are doing something for hundreds of years, there are 2 possible actions: that it is a part of the religion, or that the institution has other interests - both being extremely bad.

And just to be a bit clearer, I'll give the Inquisition as an example. Was killing witches encouraged by the bible ? Yes, it was. But it was also helped the institution, because it helped keep control over the population. And even if it wasn't encouraged by the religion, just the fact that someone can find justification for doing bad things in a religion is bad enough.

 

[Gharib]

I'll answer this because me and Ryanam have fairly similar opinions.

What kind of knowledge, about religion or physics ? I'm neither a religious scholar, nor a physicist.

But I have a basic understanding of both. I like reading books about physics/cosmology, and although I can't really follow/understand everything - I can understand the implications of most of the recent breakthroughs in this field.

About religion, I've been having conversations with religious people for the past 2-3 years, probably a lot more. I like to read books about religion (and no, not just books by well known atheists like Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins - but by theists as well, for example Kenneth Miller), and I read the Bible (as both a theist and atheist) and most of the Quran.

So what special knowledge do you have access to and I don't ? This is something that baffles me.

I don't have any special knowledge, it's just common religious knowledge that members of some particular faiths have due to their knowledge of God.

So if someone has made up their mind that God is uncaring or evil or something else due to unpleasant events, then that's because of lack of knowledge, more specifically, religious knowledge.

 

[Koldo]

The books I linked to do a better job as a place to start. I am not going to spend all day trying to explain something to people who probably aren't ready to learn when there is material out there already that can do a better job. But I will spend a few minutes making a couple of small posts and recommending good books that I've read personally. If that isn't good enough, then ts.

Telling people to read books rather than further elaborating your arguments is certainly not enough.

 

[Rakhel]

Perhaps you could address my thoughts in the post above?

How is Ozzy Osborne still alive when people who live a healthy lifestyle die of all sorts of illnesses. Where is the fairness? Taking the most basic approach and applying an omnipotent God, I cannot reason how healthy people die before those who abuse their body like crazy. It makes so little sense to see the healthy suffer (along with their familes) whilst the abusers propser.

Genetics.

 

[ryanam]

So you openly admit to knowing almost nothing about theism? Good to know. It's easier to ridicule something if you have a lovely little straw man and don't want to accept other versions of it.


The actions of institutions are not the same as the same as the belief of the religion and to think otherwise is laughable.

If we had 10,000 years of Muslims claiming that children who died who were not born to Muslim parents would go to Hell, it still would not be an Islamic position.

I openly admit to nothing. Try reading the words in the posts. The OP was created so that I can understand points of view and then ask questions which would allow me to learn.

If we had 10,000 years of Muslims claiming... it still would not be an Islamic position.

So how do you define the difference between the action these people are taking in the real world and their religious position. Why would they not be just displaying their religious position rather than doing something completely random?

Also, if the actions of institutions are so irrelevant, then why have them?

 

[Gharib]

If we had 10,000 years of Muslims claiming that children who died who were not born to Muslim parents would go to Hell, it still would not be an Islamic position.

This statement renders part of the OP incorrect if the person who made the OP accepts what you are saying. So you are wrong Odion. Doesn't matter what you say.

 

[sandandfoam]

Based on the fact that not a single person has given a straight forward answer yet, proves that the ultimatum has some substance.

To infer proof from your opinion that you haven't got a straight answer constitutes quite a leap.

I believe we all see the world as we are. I already offered my own view that I cannot explain suffering and I do not understand it. Nor do I expect to.

Could it be that you are angry with a god you don't believe in? Or is it that you are angry with the people who believe in the god you don't believe in?

If we take it that God is a yarn that people spin for themselves, why would their spinning be a cause of annoyance to you?

 

[Koldo]

True, they accuse us of being closed minded and not open to new ideas, and in reality there is no point in arguing against someone who has already established that they are better than you in many ways than one.

Theists are a joke to them, so how could they take us seriously and it's not like anything we say is logical, it doesn't conform to their level of elitist logic anyway.

(don't mean that for all atheist/unbelievers)

Have you considered changing your beliefs due to debates here?

 

[Breathe]

But the actions of religious institutions are directly dictated by the core of the religion.

Not always.

So if religious institutions are doing something for hundreds of years, there are 2 possible actions: that it is a part of the religion, or that the institution has other interests - both being extremely bad.

The latter one has often been the case IMHO.

Institutions, religious and otherwise, often (unfortunately) wish to protect their own interests and not the interests in their subjects (laypeople, the working class, and so on).

Allowing people access to the Bible in their own language, for example, allowed them access to scripture for themselves to read and understand, which could have been something that people who were hungry for power and/or comfortable in their position did not want. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with people.

 

[Gharib]

Have you considered changing your beliefs due to debates here?

My opinions and views of many things have changed since I first joined. Be it about Islam, other religions or other things in general.

 

[John Thiel]

9 million children die each year before they reach the age of 5.

An Asian tsunami (2002 variety which killed over 250,000 people) happening every 10 days killing children only under 5. That's around 24,000 a day, 1,000 an hour, 17 or so per minute. By the time I finish this post a handful will have died in agony, scared for their life.

Other factors involved in this horrendous process are things like the parents. Many of these parents believe in a god of some description and will be praying for their children to live or, in many cases because of the suffering involved, to die. Their prayers will not be answered.

Is this part of gods original plan?

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

The fact that, under many views, these children will be going straight to hell because of where they were born or because they were told to worship the wrong god is almost as bad.

If human's have free will which is likely the explanation for all of this, then what's the point? Is god there only for people to think they have an explanation to the creation of the universe? Does this god guide the hand of those chosen few? Or are we all left to our own devices for god to sit back and watch?

Some people seem already to be in hell, before they're dead. Preachers sometimes get pretty scary describing something worse than what they're already experiencing.

 

[ryanam]

To infer proof from your opinion that you haven't got a straight answer constitutes quite a leap.

I believe we all see the world as we are. I already offered my own view that I cannot explain suffering and I do not understand it. Nor do I expect to.

Could it be that you are angry with a god you don't believe in? Or is it that you are angry with the people who believe in the god you don't believe in?

If we take it that God is a yarn that people spin for themselves, why would their spinning be a cause of annoyance to you?

This isn't really about my own annoyance. It's just something that came to me when I was thinking about it. Other than the two theories given in the OP, I can't come to another clear conclusion and neither can anybody else on this thread, it would seem.

 

[Koldo]

My opinions and views of many things have changed since I first joined. Be it about Islam, other religions or other things in general.

Let me be more specific: Have you ever considered converting to another religion due to debates here?