So Jesus is not God?

[sojourner]

I believe you are not a mind reader who could know what the disciples thought previously to Jesus

I believe I am familiar with the cultural anthropology of this particular subject.

I believe those writing in the Talmud would have had some opinions but those would not necessarily be held in common with laborers

I believe this makes no difference and doesn’t refute my point.

I believe any idea that acts of God could be considered idol worship to be quite foolish and yes there was resurrection by God through prophets in the OT

What you believe doesn’t change what we know.

 

[Muffled]

I believe I am familiar with the cultural anthropology of this particular subject.


I believe this makes no difference and doesn’t refute my point.

What you believe doesn’t change what we know.

I believe that does not qualify as mind reading. For instance culturally 50% would rather not have Trump as president but if you are speaking to an individual he may have thoughts that fall into the other 50%.

I believe on RF there is not considered an ability to know so it is your belief.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

For example, God is eternal, having no beginning or ending. What I've learned from Christians is that they believe the same of Jesus.

You are probably correct about most of Christianity. However some believe different. I for instance believe the Messiah was born of a woman, born under the law as stated in Galatians 4:4

I don't believe in a Trinity. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father. I believe God made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for the sins of the world. He called that body his Son. After all he was the Father of that body. But it wasn't another person. It was YHWH himself dwelling in that body.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are probably correct about most of Christianity. However some believe different. I for instance believe the Messiah was born of a woman, born under the law as stated in Galatians 4:4

I don't believe in a Trinity. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father. I believe God made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for the sins of the world. He called that body his Son. After all he was the Father of that body. But it wasn't another person. It was YHWH himself dwelling in that body.

I'll leave this for Christians to respond to.

 

[DW79]

It's a good point and notice how Jesus defines the greatest love.

John 15:13
greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

So according to Jesus the greatest love is to die for your friends. Yet, we all know that God must have the greatest love of all. (1 John 4:8) So then when did God die for His friends?

Thank you for answering the question UA!

I totally agree with your answer here. The person who actually dies for you is showing MORE love than the person that sent him.For example, it is the one who dies taking the hill that gets the medal, and not the one who ordered him to take the hill. And it is the person who drowns saving you as you flail in the water that receives honor, and not the person sitting on the shore watching who agreed that you needed to be saved.

It doesn't matter how "tight" you were with the person who did the actual saving. It doesn't matter how close you were, whether you "thought alike", "acted alike" or whatever. The person doing the saving show more love than the person watching. We agree on this.

This poses a HUGE quandary for those who believe Jesus is not God.

But to understand the exact nature of this "quandary" I need you to do something I asked my fellow Christians to do earlier, and that is to posit a premise you may not believe in. For you, I need you to posit that scripture is authoritative and the Word of God.

If you can do that you will see the quandary. If you believe that Jesus is not God simply because the bible is a fabricated collection of stories you will not fully see or understand the issue.

So keeping this in mind we can look at scripture.

As @74x12 pointed out earlier, God is the source of love:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.. (1 John 4:8)​

And we also know how the ultimate in greater love is shown:

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13)
​

And to drive the point I am about to make a little further, we know a servant is not greater than his master:

Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' (John 15:20)​

Now, with this in mind...that scripture is authoritative...we come back to our premise that Jesus is not God and Romans 5:8

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."​

It is Christ who died, but it is God that shows the love. How? By having His son die! So it is the Son who shows greater love for mankind than God, because there is no greater love than dying for your friends!!

How is that possible when you accept as authoritative that God is the source of love, the servant is not greater than the master and "Jesus is not God"? How does Jesus show greater love than the source of love itself?

This "quandary" is easily answered if Jesus is God, but..for the sake of argument...that premise is off the table. So I am asking my fellow Christians, especially those who believe "Jesus is not God", how we balance our equation.

Unfortunately there has been little in the way of answers so far. Instead, they point to other equations they've formulated, hoping to distract from this one.

I don't mind applying the same microscope we're using here, but I'd like to get this one "off the table" and taken care of first.

Did someone answer this? I haven't read through all the posts and it was a few months ago now?

 

[Riders]

Did someone answer this? I haven't read through all the posts and it was a few months ago now?

It is Christ who died, but it is God that shows the love. How? By having His son die! So it is the Son who shows greater love for mankind than God, because there is no greater love than dying for your friends!!

How is that possible when you accept as authoritative that God is the source of love, the servant is not greater than the master and "Jesus is not God"? How does Jesus show greater love than the source of love itself?

In other words, because Jesus laid down his life for the world this proves he is God? Then how is it that there are hundreds of thousands of other folks who also laid down their lives to save other people as well??????????

 

[DW79]

It is Christ who died, but it is God that shows the love. How? By having His son die! So it is the Son who shows greater love for mankind than God, because there is no greater love than dying for your friends!!

How is that possible when you accept as authoritative that God is the source of love, the servant is not greater than the master and "Jesus is not God"? How does Jesus show greater love than the source of love itself?

In other words, because Jesus laid down his life for the world this proves he is God? Then how is it that there are hundreds of thousands of other folks who also laid down their lives to save other people as well??????????

God shows the greatest love because he IS love he does not HAVE it. Jesus said no one HAS greater love than this. God does not HAVE love in the first place being as he IS love so isn't even an element in the equation here (so to speak).

Christ's death is a manifestation of God's love. The greatest possible demonstration of it. Christ is not God.

 

[Riders]

God shows the greatest love because he IS love he does not HAVE it. Jesus said no one HAS greater love than this. God does not HAVE love in the first place being as he IS love so isn't even an element in the equation here (so to speak).

Christ's death is a manifestation of God's love. The greatest manifestation. Christ is not God.

I agree!

 

[DW79]

I agree!

Well very good

 

[74x12]

It is Christ who died, but it is God that shows the love. How? By having His son die! So it is the Son who shows greater love for mankind than God, because there is no greater love than dying for your friends!!

How is that possible when you accept as authoritative that God is the source of love, the servant is not greater than the master and "Jesus is not God"? How does Jesus show greater love than the source of love itself?

In other words, because Jesus laid down his life for the world this proves he is God? Then how is it that there are hundreds of thousands of other folks who also laid down their lives to save other people as well??????????

Malachi 1:2 "i have loved you"

God has loved Jacob. So God has love also.

 

[DW79]

Malachi 1:2 "i have loved you"

God has loved Jacob. So God has love also.

Someone who IS love can of course love or there would be no love.

 

[74x12]

Someone who IS love can of course love or there would be no love.

So then God shows His love with actions?

 

[DW79]

So then God shows His love with actions?

All love is God's love. Even the love we have comes from God. All actions of love are God's love. Because without him there is no love.

 

[74x12]

All love is God's love. Even the love we have comes from God. All actions of love are God's love. Because without him there is no love.

Correct. But, it's not a direct answer. I believe God Himself acts in love. What greater love than to die for us?

In Isaiah 54:5 we see that Jerusalem is married to God. She must be redeemed however. Because she sinned and was forsaken for a small moment. Yet, God promised to redeem her. Literally in Hebrew it is to be a kinsman redeemer to her. Like Boaz with Ruth.

How can that happen? How can she be redeemed? Isn't it by the blood of Jesus? (Acts 20:28)

 

[DW79]

Correct. But, it's not a direct answer. I believe God Himself acts in love. What greater love than to die for us?

In Isaiah 54:5 we see that Jerusalem is married to God. She must be redeemed however. Because she sinned and was forsaken for a small moment. Yet, God promised to redeem her. Literally in Hebrew it is to be a kinsman redeemer to her. Like Boaz with Ruth.

How can that happen? How can she be redeemed? Isn't it by the blood of Jesus? (Acts 20:28)

God IS love so can't die or love would die. Only those who HAVE love can die.This is why its the greatest demonstration or recommendation of God's love.

 

[74x12]

God IS love so can't die or love would die. Only those who HAVE love can die.This is why its the greatest demonstration or recommendation of God's love.

This is why God needed a human body to be the "Lamb of God" that "takes away the sins of the world". God can't die; so makes Himself a human body to inhabit that replaces the sacrifices of the old testament. This human body will die and so that's how God can die. God dies through the Son. Not that His Spirit can actually die/perish.

Hebrews 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God inhabited this body fully. That is all the divine nature was dwelling bodily in Him.

Colossians 2:8-9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 1:19 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,

So, we're talking about the so called "hypostatic union". Which is just a fancy way of talking about how God was inhabiting a human form. In Isaiah 9:6 we see that He is both a child that is born, a son that is given on one hand and on the other hand he's called mighty God and everlasting Father. So we have two natures. Created human nature paired with eternal divine nature.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[DW79]

This is why God needed a human body to be the "Lamb of God" that "takes away the sins of the world". God can't die; so makes Himself a human body to inhabit that replaces the sacrifices of the old testament. This human body will die and so that's how God can die. God dies through the Son. Not that His Spirit can actually die/perish.

Hebrews 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God inhabited this body fully. That is all the divine nature was dwelling bodily in Him.

Colossians 2:8-9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 1:19 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,

So, we're talking about the so called "hypostatic union". Which is just a fancy way of talking about how God was inhabiting a human form. In Isaiah 9:6 we see that He is both a child that is born, a son that is given on one hand and on the other hand he's called mighty God and everlasting Father. So we have two natures. Created human nature paired with eternal divine nature.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I say this to you in love and kindness. All you have to do is read it. Just read what is said. Don't imply to the scriptures what you believe is meant. This is the biggest mistake in scriptural reading.

When we talk of basics. The reality is the scriptures are there so we can read what Jesus and the Apostles said. Not so someone can tell us what they meant

 

[74x12]

I say this to you in love and kindness. All you have to do is read it. Just read what is said. Don't imply to the scriptures what you believe is meant. This is the biggest mistake in scriptural reading.

When we talk of basics. The reality is the scriptures are there so we can read what Jesus and the Apostles said. Not so someone can tell us what they meant

I can appreciate your view of it. I can see how many people go wrong by making the scriptures fit their own beliefs rather than the other way around.

But, I believe the scriptures are not so easy to just understand by anyone who picks up a Bible as you seem to imply. They're very deep. We need the holy Spirit's help. That is the key ingredient. You don't want to misunderstand the Word or the seed is stolen out of your heart before it bears fruit. (Matthew 13:19) Then you end up like those in Matthew 13:15.

So there is knowledge; but by itself it's just information. That's all the Bible is. For knowledge to be of use; we need to understand it. And that's understanding. (Proverbs 4:5) But not even understanding will save us by itself. What does save us? Wisdom. Wisdom is the ability/skill to put what we understand into action which is true fruitfulness.

So the aim of the scriptures is to foster wisdom within us. (Psalm 1:1-3) But ... that can't happen without understanding what is written. So, the gift of the holy Spirit is the shortcut to it all. Because the holy Spirit gives you the understanding of spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) and more importantly; the Spirit makes the fruit of the Spirit to grow in you. (Galatians 5:22-23) And this fruit is the fruit of wisdom. So you have wisdom naturally as if you're born to it; through the Spirit of God dwelling within you. So ... I don't believe we ought to look to men or their teachings. That would be to try to obey God blindly as if we can save ourselves on our own efforts. But we need a guide. We need the Spirit. Because it is not what we can do; but what work God can do within us that will amount to anything. As you pointed out before ... all love is God. So the love of God in us ... that is what we really need. The gift of God like they had in the book of Acts chapter 2.

The scriptures should be considered the "words of the wise and their dark sayings" (KJV, other translations say riddles). The Spirit of truth is sent to lead and guides us into all truth. And He is the Spirit of Truth that will bring to remembrance all things that Jesus taught and said. He will explain and expound the scriptures for those who trust in Him.

 

[Soapy]

‘No greater love than to die for your friends’...

Almighty God is not our FRIEND!!

Almighty God, YHWH, is our [spiritual] FATHER. We are his children.

Even human society says ‘Do not ever claim to be “friends” with your children - you are their parents!!’

I know there are some weird parents who do not believe in this philosophy but if it’s examined it will be found there is deep disfunctionality in such families.

But, in any case, the reason for the death of a sinless innocent pure and holy man was to appease almighty God for the sin of the first man, Adam.

Does anyone who debates in forums actually read the scriptures!!!???

Almighty God was initially seeking a sinless man from among the procreated children of Adam to offset the sin of Adam - which condemned ALL MANKIND TO ETERNAL DEATH - even those who did not transgress the law!!!

When enough time had passed, Almighty God set in motion the contingency plan had had set aside earlier: ‘The seed of a woman’.

This is prophesied more clearly in Isaiah 42:1:

• ‘Behold my servant, my beloved, on whom I will put my spirit. He shall succeed and do all my bidding and bring justice to the nations’

Notice that YHWH, almighty God, says this saviour will be ‘HIS SERVANT’... and that He, YHWH, will put His (YHWH’s) Spirit on him (the servant).

And guess what? This occurred... yes, what Yhwh says will happen. When? You know... at Jesus’ anointing with Holy Spirit at the river Jordan...

So Jesus is ‘YHWH’s SERVANT’.

And seed of a woman??? That too... how? Well, all procreated humans are flesh from flesh from the first human Father, Adam. BUT Adam was not procreated...

All Adams children and children of his children all are in sin.., Adam, in his day of creation and up until he sinned, was PURE, SINLESS, HOLY...

When he sinned, he had no children, and so no sinless holy pure children were born to him. After he sinned sin cane with each child... and all after (sorry, I am repeating!!)... So how is a sinless pure holy man to be born? How about in the same manner as the first human?

Notice that the BODY of Adam was created BUT it had no life in it.

It was only made alive when YHWH put a spirit into it by the breath into its nostril!!!

• ‘And the man BECAME A LIVING SOUL’

And you all know that women menstruate once a month (or so)... and what happens at that time? An egg is released from her ovaries ... it is NOT A LIVING ENTITY... ‘dust to the earth’ ... a lifeless body if not enlivened by the living SPERM is expelled to the ground. Sounds terrible but is reality... think about it!

So, YHWH did not allow the Virgin Mary to be impregnated by HUMAN SPERM... but rather YHWH ENLIVENED the SEED OF THE WOMAN with His HOLY SPIRIT:

• ‘The Holy Spirit of God will overshadow you and therefore the child to be born to you will be HOLY, and called the sin of the God most high!’

Is it funny and coincident that the first man, Adam, born by the ‘overshadowing’ of the Holy Spirit over the lifeless body. So you know, of course, that Luke 3:38 states that Adam, was ‘SON OF GOD [the most high]’.

What is the parallel events in that scenario?

And guess what? The son did not sin...

Oops, did I say ‘Son’, or should that be ‘Servant’ as in the prophesy?

Well, understand this... “A Son is as good as a Servant” in that they do as their ‘Father’/ ‘Master’ command them to do.

And also, you know that Jesus, the ‘son, seed of the woman’ is ‘THE SECOND..and.. the LAST ADAM’.

So, here we have the perfect ‘Sacrificial Lamb’ in the sin of the seed of the woman... and his ‘friends’ are all those of mankind ... friend for friends - one human life for the many!!!

Why are you all struggling to understand this which is all in the scriptures???

 

[DW79]

I can appreciate your view of it. I can see how many people go wrong by making the scriptures fit their own beliefs rather than the other way around.

But, I believe the scriptures are not so easy to just understand by anyone who picks up a Bible as you seem to imply. They're very deep. We need the holy Spirit's help. That is the key ingredient. You don't want to misunderstand the Word or the seed is stolen out of your heart before it bears fruit. (Matthew 13:19) Then you end up like those in Matthew 13:15.

So there is knowledge; but by itself it's just information. That's all the Bible is. For knowledge to be of use; we need to understand it. And that's understanding. (Proverbs 4:5) But not even understanding will save us by itself. What does save us? Wisdom. Wisdom is the ability/skill to put what we understand into action which is true fruitfulness.

So the aim of the scriptures is to foster wisdom within us. (Psalm 1:1-3) But ... that can't happen without understanding what is written. So, the gift of the holy Spirit is the shortcut to it all. Because the holy Spirit gives you the understanding of spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) and more importantly; the Spirit makes the fruit of the Spirit to grow in you. (Galatians 5:22-23) And this fruit is the fruit of wisdom. So you have wisdom naturally as if you're born to it; through the Spirit of God dwelling within you. So ... I don't believe we ought to look to men or their teachings. That would be to try to obey God blindly as if we can save ourselves on our own efforts. But we need a guide. We need the Spirit. Because it is not what we can do; but what work God can do within us that will amount to anything. As you pointed out before ... all love is God. So the love of God in us ... that is what we really need. The gift of God like they had in the book of Acts chapter 2.

The scriptures should be considered the "words of the wise and their dark sayings" (KJV, other translations say riddles). The Spirit of truth is sent to lead and guides us into all truth. And He is the Spirit of Truth that will bring to remembrance all things that Jesus taught and said. He will explain and expound the scriptures for those who trust in Him.

Sure the scriptures are deep no doubt about it. But here's the thing, that doesn't mean that none of it is simple to understand. I mean for example do you believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Or do you try and find other meanings around the scriptures that directly say he was born in Bethlehem?

So the question is simply this. Do we simply read what Jesus says about his identity or do we imply he meant something else? Because only one of these is correct. If we choose the wrong one we will never reach the answer. If you would like to discuss this point with me I would be happy too.