So Jesus is not God?

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe you will find the Trinity in IS. 9: 6 & 7.

Well it's not.

 

[moorea944]

Hi....

I’m not telling YOU that!

I’m QUALIFYING what you said.

Your reply should have said: “Exactly”!

It’s not a competition to tell the truth... Jesus said that we should have love among the true brethren and by this love we are known to be brethren of his.

If I offend you by re-enforcing this much of your view... then I apologise. Perhaps I should have glorified you first.

But in any case then:

• I agree that your belief in this matter is true and righteous...
• ‘Lord’ does not imply ‘God’, for even ‘God’ made Jesus ‘Lord’...
• and if Jesus was ‘MADE to be Lord’ then Jesus cannot have been ‘God’...
• for certainly, he did not make himself so but by another...
• and for sure, ‘God’ does not make himself LESS THAN WHAT HE IS -
• so twice over:

1. ’God’ cannot be made ‘Lord’ any more than
2. ‘God’ cannot be made MAN

No worries my friend. Have a wonderful day. I kindof thought that too. My bad.....

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Your reply is typical of those who see the truth and cannot refute it.

Instead of showing what you believe to be wrong, you resort to ‘I won’t reply’... I notice trinity believers will argue the toss with all-comers who have wrongful beliefs but run away from those who show the truth... as you are doing now!!

Stand up to what you believe and show me my wrong... or else KNOW that it is truth I speak and write.

I ask you these few:

• Did YHWH make this Jesus that we know, ‘Both Lord and Christ’?
• Did YHWH give Jesus that we know, the power and authority to rule for a thousand years?
• Does Jesus that we know ‘hand back power and authority’ to YHWH after the thousand years?
• Does Jesus finally acquire RULERSHIP over CREATION ... and if so, how is Jesus gifted with it if he is ALMIGHTY GOD who is RULER OVER HEAVEN - greater kingdom which incorporates the lesser kingdom of creation?

I believe his true name was YHWSH and not Jesus, but yes the one who was crucified was made both YHWH and Messiah. That body was initially a human fleshly body. But once the job was done, it was raised a glorious spiritual body that can never die. No longer in weakness, he said I have all power in heaven and in earth. That makes him the Almighty.

As for the rest I'll say this: He ascended and took the throne, and he isn't giving it back to anyone. He has power and authority to rule forever. His kingdom is forever and he will rule forever. There will be no end to his kingdom. Luke 1:32-33 Isaiah 9:6-7 (It says he shall reign forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end - yet you would have us believe his kingdom and reign ends)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I have followed this thread for a little while and see that both sides are not genuous.

Jesus was not speaking about ‘himself’, but rather, the ‘Temple of his Soul’... the ‘temple’ he was establishing: ‘The Church’ (‘Congregation of believers in YHWH the only true God, and, Jesus Christ, whom YHWH sent’)

You will see that after Jesus died, the disciples went BACK TO THEIR DAY JOBS... The church had indeed been ‘destroyed’, the congregation scattered and disbelieving: if their master was dead, how could he have been the saviour and yet the Romans still ruled over them and emburdening them with taxes and slavery???

So, after three days, Jesus reappeared and indeed REBUILT the congregation of Believers...: the church.

Please understand, and check for yourself: Jesus was always speaking SPIRITUALLY... death and raising up of his body is NOT SPIRITUAL but EARTHLY/FLESHLY. Clearly, scriptures tells us that it was THE FATHER who raised up Christ Jesus.

T’ain’t hard to understand if you are not trying to be disingenuous!!!


I’ve posted this answer many time’s but it seems none of the readers understand...

‘BEFORE’ is a term in Jewishness which means ‘GREATER THAN’. The Jews asked Jesus if he was greater than their forefather, Abraham. Indeed, Abraham was great... he was ‘Before’ them!!! Abraham showed faith greater than all others of the forefathers....

But even great as Abraham was, he foresaw through the word of God, that the SAVIOUR would come through the seed of his loins... ONE GREATER THAN HE would be the deliverer... and he saw, through spiritual vision, that great day when the saviour would appear.

1) So you would have us believe that the church was destroyed - When he said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?

And you think he just let the church - his bride, be destroyed?

During the time period you are claiming the church was destroyed, and was the temple he was talking about, had any of them received the Holy Spirit yet? John 7:39 Since the Holy Spirit was not yet given in what way could they be the temple he was talking about?

John 2:22 Let's us know it is obvious he was talking about his resurrection from the dead.

2) Give us some kind of proof that "before" is a Hebrew idiom that means "Greater Than" (other than just your say so.) Please provide a link to some authority giving verification to your claim. Also please provide an example from the Hebrew OT scriptures where "before" was used in this manner.

If he wasn't talking about being before them in time, why did they even bring up the issue about his age?

 

[metis]

Clearly, the Church was not destroyed, thus I have no clue why some seem to think it was.

 

[Soapy]

Clearly, the Church was not destroyed, thus I have no clue why some seem to think it was.

TrueBeliever talks like sojourner... perhaps it’s him in disguise...!

What I said is purposely misrepresented and mis-answered to by TrueBeliever. So please do not take what he/she says.. it’s clear that he/she has not read the scriptures - perhaps is Judaistic and does not believe the New Testament.

My point was that Jesus said that if the Jews killed him the new congregational set of believers (Church) would be ‘destroyed’ ... but only for THREE DAYS... the congregation WAS INDEED SCATTERED and DISPERSED.. even Peter and Andrew went back to fishing ... which is where Jesus found them EVEN AFTER he showed himself to them in the upper chamber a few days earlier.

Ask why TrueBeliever might want to deny what I said?

Think why TrueBeliever might want to misrepresent what I said?

Jesus did not raise himself from the dead - so if Jesus MEANT that HE would raise HIMSELF from the dead then clearly scriptures does not agree with him and it makes Jesus a liar:

• “But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.” (Acts 2:24)
• “And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.” (Romans 8:11)
  
• “By his [holy spirit] power, God raised the Lord [Jesus Christ] from the dead, and he will raise us also.” (1 Corinth 8:14)
• “because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself.” (2 Corinth 4:14)
• “God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.” (Acts 2:32)

These verses (and doubtless others) lay the claim that Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit of the Father: The Spirit of God... YHWH’s Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of truth - and truth means LIFE!!!!
Note: Be assured that ‘God’ and ‘Spirit of God’ refer to the same entity: YHWH. They are not two persons as falsely claimed by trinitarian (and oneness and Jesus-only) believers. If I say that my spirit is grieved because you didn’t believe something absolutely true I spoke to you, I am not implying that I and my spirit are two persons. Indeed, the spirit of Jesus is not the same ‘Spirit of God’ but Jesus ACTING in the SAME spirit[ual] manner AS HIS GOD and FATHER: YHWH.

 

[metis]

Note: Be assured that ‘God’ and ‘Spirit of God’ refer to the same entity: YHWH. They are not two persons as falsely claimed by trinitarian (and oneness and Jesus-only) believers. If I say that my spirit is grieved because you didn’t believe something absolutely true I spoke to you, I am not implying that I and my spirit are two persons. Indeed, the spirit of Jesus is not the same ‘Spirit of God’ but Jesus ACTING in the SAME spirit[ual] manner AS HIS GOD and FATHER: YHWH.

Thanks for the explanation, but let me also add that the one thing that is certain when it comes to interpretations is that very little is for certain.

Also, in order to understand where the Trinitarian concept is coming from, one needs to understand the concept of "essence". To put it another way, it posits that Jesus is not literally God but is the "essence" of God in ways that are not clear, thus what we call the "Mystery if the Trinity".

Since I am on the lunatic left-wing fringe of Catholicism, I have no clue as to whether that concept is correct, nor do I lose any sleep over it.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

TrueBeliever talks like sojourner... perhaps it’s him in disguise...!

What I said is purposely misrepresented and mis-answered to by TrueBeliever. So please do not take what he/she says.. it’s clear that he/she has not read the scriptures - perhaps is Judaistic and does not believe the New Testament.

My point was that Jesus said that if the Jews killed him the new congregational set of believers (Church) would be ‘destroyed’ ... but only for THREE DAYS... the congregation WAS INDEED SCATTERED and DISPERSED.. even Peter and Andrew went back to fishing ... which is where Jesus found them EVEN AFTER he showed himself to them in the upper chamber a few days earlier.

Ask why TrueBeliever might want to deny what I said?

Think why TrueBeliever might want to misrepresent what I said?

Jesus did not raise himself from the dead - so if Jesus MEANT that HE would raise HIMSELF from the dead then clearly scriptures does not agree with him and it makes Jesus a liar:

• “But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.” (Acts 2:24)
• “And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.” (Romans 8:11)
  
• “By his [holy spirit] power, God raised the Lord [Jesus Christ] from the dead, and he will raise us also.” (1 Corinth 8:14)
• “because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself.” (2 Corinth 4:14)
• “God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.” (Acts 2:32)

These verses (and doubtless others) lay the claim that Jesus was raised from the dead by the Spirit of the Father: The Spirit of God... YHWH’s Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of truth - and truth means LIFE!!!!
Note: Be assured that ‘God’ and ‘Spirit of God’ refer to the same entity: YHWH. They are not two persons as falsely claimed by trinitarian (and oneness and Jesus-only) believers. If I say that my spirit is grieved because you didn’t believe something absolutely true I spoke to you, I am not implying that I and my spirit are two persons. Indeed, the spirit of Jesus is not the same ‘Spirit of God’ but Jesus ACTING in the SAME spirit[ual] manner AS HIS GOD and FATHER: YHWH.

I didn't misrepresent what you said. They are able to read through the discussion for themselves. I just used scriptures to show how your answers couldn't be true. You were mocking me, saying I was running away, so I decided to answer you. Why talk about me behind my back instead of responding to my post? Your post is bogus, and your note is also inaccurate as regards me. I definitely believe God and the Spirit of God are referring to one and the same being. You are the one misrepresenting me. I have read the scriptures and do believe the new testament. And I am not sojourner in disguise.

Hmmm not the same Spirit you say. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

 

[Soapy]

I didn't misrepresent what you said. They are able to read through the discussion for themselves. I just used scriptures to show how your answers couldn't be true. You were mocking me, saying I was running away, so I decided to answer you. Why talk about me behind my back instead of responding to my post? Your post is bogus, and your note is also inaccurate as regards me. I definitely believe God and the Spirit of God are referring to one and the same being. You are the one misrepresenting me. I have read the scriptures and do believe the new testament. And I am not sojourner in disguise.

Hmmm not the same Spirit you say. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

Mocking you??? You set yourself up to be mocked by the ridiculously unfounded anti-scriptural things you say.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. You even quote scriptures out of context of what is being discussed.

The spirit of God dwelling in someone means they behave as God would want them to... just as Jesus behaves just as God wants him to and do Jesus has the spirit of God dwelling in him... Simples!!!!!

When the spirit of God dwells inside a person then that person is classed as ‘SON OF GOD’... but, of course, we all, except Jesus, sin even after doing the nest we can. Consider David, King David.., God called him, ‘...My David’... David came the closest in humanity - pre-Jesus - to a sinless man until David took Uriah’s wife and had Uriah killed in battle. And this is why, pre-sinning, God had established his (David’s) throne as an everlasting throne... God’s word ‘Cannot change’ and so even after David sinned the throne of David was retained as everlasting... this is the same throne (evidently a SPIRITUAL THRONE) that Jesus Christ takes as his everlasting seat at the end of time.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Mocking you??? You set yourself up to be mocked by the ridiculously unfounded anti-scriptural things you say.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. You even quote scriptures out of context of what is being discussed.

The spirit of God dwelling in someone means they behave as God would want them to... just as Jesus behaves just as God wants him to and do Jesus has the spirit of God dwelling in him... Simples!!!!!

When the spirit of God dwells inside a person then that person is classed as ‘SON OF GOD’... but, of course, we all, except Jesus, sin even after doing the nest we can. Consider David, King David.., God called him, ‘...My David’... David came the closest in humanity - pre-Jesus - to a sinless man until David took Uriah’s wife and had Uriah killed in battle. And this is why, pre-sinning, God had established his (David’s) throne as an everlasting throne... God’s word ‘Cannot change’ and so even after David sinned the throne of David was retained as everlasting... this is the same throne (evidently a SPIRITUAL THRONE) that Jesus Christ takes as his everlasting seat at the end of time.

Your post is ridiculous. I used a verse where he said he was before Abraham. John 8:56-59 You claimed "before" was a Hebrew idiom that meant "greater than". I asked for proof regarding what you said. (Still don't have it.) And I asked why age was even brought up if it means what you say. No Response - you just ignored it.

You said the temple he was talking about in John 2:19-22 was the church, and that the church was destroyed. I showed how that couldn't be the case. Then rather than respond to me, you posted to someone else, and claimed I misrepresented you. All the while you were misrepresenting me - saying I purposely misrepresented you, haven't read the scriptures, and don't believe the new testament, and that I might be sojourner in disguise, etc. A bunch of falsehoods. (Post #466)

 

[Soapy]

Thanks for the explanation, but let me also add that the one thing that is certain when it comes to interpretations is that very little is for certain.

Also, in order to understand where the Trinitarian concept is coming from, one needs to understand the concept of "essence". To put it another way, it posits that Jesus is not literally God but is the "essence" of God in ways that are not clear, thus what we call the "Mystery if the Trinity".

Since I am on the lunatic left-wing fringe of Catholicism, I have no clue as to whether that concept is correct, nor do I lose any sleep over it.

‘Essence’ is a load of nonsense brought in by Trinitarians after they realised that their ideology didn’t work.

Here’s how it happened:
- Trinitarians claimed that God was ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

- Trinity claimed that Jesus was GOD

- Trinity claimed the Father was GOD

- Trinity claimed the Holy Spirit was GOD

- But remember that GOD is inseparably Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...!!

!!!....problem......!!!

- This means that Jesus is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

- This means that the Father is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

- This means that the Holy Spirit is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

!!!...Problem....!!!

So it was decided to ‘clarify’ what ‘GOD’ meant. The result was that NOW, GOD was not ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ but rather, ‘ESSENCE’ in which Father, Son, and Holy Spirit SHARED... but more that that, ‘GOD’ was also ‘NATURE’ in which the three shared.

See it??!! Trinitarians thought this was a great solution... afterall, congregations were unschooled, ignorant, and couldn’t read Latin or Greek... in fact, being able to read was almost a SIN for an ordinary person in times past days - claiming GOD was ESSENCE and NATURE would suitably bambusall them - and in any case, Catholic doctrine dictates that you don’t question representatives of ‘the trinity GOD’.

But in these enlightened days we can question the ideology.. and see that if makes no sense...:

How can Jesus be ‘God’ if:

1. on one hand, God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’...
2. and on the other, ‘Essence and Nature’

In 1., there is absolutely no sense... it is a complete contradiction of any reality

In 2., it makes GOD, an OFFICE, a SHELL ENTITY, in which the three dwell... thus like three fish in the same water bowl.

But hold on... how many Trinitarians today express this ‘Essence and Nature’ doctrine... in this forum in the short time I’ve been here, this is my first hearing of it...

I’m betting no one who believes such nonsense can EXPLAIN IT....

In fact, I’m betting the end result is that those famous ‘get out of jail cards’ are used ...

• ... the ‘GOD IS A MYSTERY’ card

• ... the ‘Our God is INCOMPREHENSIBLE’ card

• ... the ‘Its your tiny mind that cannot understand the unfathomable God’ card

What I ask then is, ‘If trinity God is a mystery, incomprehensible, and beyond our understand’... how are we to believe in this trinity God???

Also, didn’t Jesus REVEAL THE FATHER, as per Revelation 1:1:

• “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.”

Did Jesus fail to reveal what God gave to him to reveal?

And:

• “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.” (John 17:8)

Have we not known God... as Jesus states?

How is Jesus God, if he was SENT BY GOD? Can God send God ...

But is Jesus ESSENCE and NATURE (what trinity say is ‘GOD’)? yet ESSENCE and NATURE SENT HIM?

And Jesus is ‘GOING TO ESSENCE AND NATURE’ (the Father)... (further verses on from John 17:8...!)

Please explain... I’m all ears, eyes, and mind...

 

[Soapy]

Your post is ridiculous.

Thank you... this response is expressing what the scriptures terms, “Grieving the Holy Spirit”! I tell you the truth and you claim it is falsehood... showing you lack understanding.., showing that the truth scares you. Instead of accepting and embracing the truth, you REJECT IT... I’m asking you to be careful about such behaviours if you are claiming to be Christian in its true definition.

I used a verse where he said he was before Abraham. John 8:56-59 You claimed "before" was a Hebrew idiom that meant "greater than". I asked for proof regarding what you said. (Still don't have it.) And I asked why age was even brought up if it means what you say. No Response - you just ignored it.

I didn’t ignore it! I'm wondering what is wrong with your intellect that you should need to ask ‘for proof’... are you GREEK?

I outlined exactly what the situation was, have done several times, but it appears it’s too much for you (and others like you) to understand.

I told you, by my post if you read it instead of IGNORING IT... that age was brought up concerning John the Baptist, EXACTLY FOR THE PURPOSE of showing John was older than Jesus. It was EXACTLY for that reason and no other but to show John was older YET CLAIMED that Jesus was BEFORE HIM. John did not know Jesus despite them being cousins and so could not personally have known an AGE DIFFERENCE in his favour.

If you are astute, you will see that the Jews pay high regard to order hence their question to Jesus as to ‘not yet fifty years old’. You should understand that ACTUAL FIFTY YEARS OLD has nothing to do with SEEING ABRAHAM because Abraham died thousands of years before (Ha ha ha... thousands of years superior to) their existence)... you did ask for proof!. The Jews set out idealistic thoughts on the superiority of their forefathers concerning greatness - as Jesus says of them: ‘You Jews love to argue about genealogy’ (paraphrased) and:

• “The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.“ (Matthew 12:41-42)
• “For the law was given through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (by which is meant: Jesus is greater than Moses)

The Jews, talking with John the Baptist, who they clearly mistook for the Messiah, asked John:

• “Why then do you baptize, if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

John had, in the previous verse, even reference himself in the words of the great prophet Isaiah:

• “John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet: “I am a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’” A reference you can look up yourself...

And note their reference to past men of greatness.
John rejects all these accolades laid upon him and speaks of one greater than he, giving way to superiority, tells the Jews:

• “I baptize withg water,” John replied, “but among you stands One you do not know. 27He is the One who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” And:
  
• Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

So, to the Jews, Jesus was saying: “Abraham was indeed a great man, faithful in all his ways towards God... and now one greater than Abraham is here!!!”

Jesus answered: ‘Superior to Abraham, I am’.

You said the temple he was talking about in John 2:19-22 was the church, and that the church was destroyed. I showed how that couldn't be the case. Then rather than respond to me, you posted to someone else, and claimed I misrepresented you. All the while you were misrepresenting me - saying I purposely misrepresented you, haven't read the scriptures, and don't believe the new testament, and that I might be sojourner in disguise, etc. A bunch of falsehoods. (Post #466)

No, it is YOU who misrepresents ME!
I defined the church as the congregation ... the people who will form the church... the DISCIPLES. But more than that, but that the congregation would be scattered and the belief would go to ground... go to seed... die away...

”Why are you not understand my mode of speech?”

Yes, these are Jesus’ own words to the Jews who equally mistook his spiritual words. I say the same to you, here!

The congregation WAS INDEED SCATTERED, DISPERSED, DIE, ... after Jesus died. You see that even after Jesus showed himself as risen and appeared to the disciples in the upper chamber, THEY STILL WENT BACK TO THEIR DAY JOB.

Peter and Andrew, and others, were found FISHING by Jesus soon after. They had not continued the work Jesus set them of becoming ‘FISHERS OF MEN’. They had gone back to fishing for, umm,... ‘Fish’!!!

Oh, and by the way, be careful of rigorous attention to exact numbers in scriptures... numbers are used SPIRITUALLY. For instance:

• Noah was not in the Ark for EXACTLY 40 days and nights... it’s just a term for ’A long time [in days]’
  
• The Israelites were not in the wilderness for exactly 40 years. It’s just a term meaning as long time [in Years]’
• 144,000 and 12 [x 12] etc, refer to ‘Complete Sets’

Jesus did not RAISE HIMSELF from the dead... so the reference to ‘destroy this temple... I will raise it up in three days’ was meaning the congregation of God in Christ. After scattering the new ‘Christian believers’, Jesus RESTORED IT by his reappearance and spiritual support of them. The congregational CHURCH was thus REBUILT and will last eternally...!!

You need to have serious words with whom ever is your past teacher as they are not teaching you spiritual truth... they are spoon feeding you infected food. But, I guess, if you have no genuine fresh bread to eat then you will eat stale and infected crusts.

But yet, here is true bread and you still consume the infected pieces!!!

 

[metis]

‘Essence’ is a load of nonsense brought in by Trinitarians after they realised that their ideology didn’t work.

The concept of "essence" predates both Jesus and the Church by roughly 300 years per Aristotle and Plato, plus you see this concept even being used on the Tanakh.

Secondly, there is no logical way to conclude that the "ideology didn't work" because we would have to have the mind of God to actually know that. Believe what you want, I guess, but "beliefs" are not intrinsically the same as "facts".

How is Jesus God, if he was SENT BY GOD? Can God send God ...

Obviously, you don't understand the concept of "essence" or you wouldn't have asked the above question. Maybe actually spend a bit of time and look it up, and the Wiki article on it is actually good even though it branches off into many aspects of it.

Let me give you a very brief definition: "The whole is greater than just the sum of its parts". Plug that into the nature of Jesus and you'll have a better grip on what "essence" means in his context.

BTW, in the realm of religion especially, certainty is the enemy of good theology.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Thank you... this response is expressing what the scriptures terms, “Grieving the Holy Spirit”! I tell you the truth and you claim it is falsehood... showing you lack understanding.., showing that the truth scares you. Instead of accepting and embracing the truth, you REJECT IT... I’m asking you to be careful about such behaviours if you are claiming to be Christian in its true definition.

I didn’t ignore it! I'm wondering what is wrong with your intellect that you should need to ask ‘for proof’... are you GREEK?

I outlined exactly what the situation was, have done several times, but it appears it’s too much for you (and others like you) to understand.

I told you, by my post if you read it instead of IGNORING IT... that age was brought up concerning John the Baptist, EXACTLY FOR THE PURPOSE of showing John was older than Jesus. It was EXACTLY for that reason and no other but to show John was older YET CLAIMED that Jesus was BEFORE HIM. John did not know Jesus despite them being cousins and so could not personally have known an AGE DIFFERENCE in his favour.

If you are astute, you will see that the Jews pay high regard to order hence their question to Jesus as to ‘not yet fifty years old’. You should understand that ACTUAL FIFTY YEARS OLD has nothing to do with SEEING ABRAHAM because Abraham died thousands of years before (Ha ha ha... thousands of years superior to) their existence)... you did ask for proof!. The Jews set out idealistic thoughts on the superiority of their forefathers concerning greatness - as Jesus says of them: ‘You Jews love to argue about genealogy’ (paraphrased) and:

• “The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.“ (Matthew 12:41-42)
• “For the law was given through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (by which is meant: Jesus is greater than Moses)

The Jews, talking with John the Baptist, who they clearly mistook for the Messiah, asked John:

• “Why then do you baptize, if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

John had, in the previous verse, even reference himself in the words of the great prophet Isaiah:

• “John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet: “I am a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’” A reference you can look up yourself...

And note their reference to past men of greatness.
John rejects all these accolades laid upon him and speaks of one greater than he, giving way to superiority, tells the Jews:

• “I baptize withg water,” John replied, “but among you stands One you do not know. 27He is the One who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” And:
  
• Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

So, to the Jews, Jesus was saying: “Abraham was indeed a great man, faithful in all his ways towards God... and now one greater than Abraham is here!!!”

Jesus answered: ‘Superior to Abraham, I am’.

No, it is YOU who misrepresents ME!
I defined the church as the congregation ... the people who will form the church... the DISCIPLES. But more than that, but that the congregation would be scattered and the belief would go to ground... go to seed... die away...

”Why are you not understand my mode of speech?”

Yes, these are Jesus’ own words to the Jews who equally mistook his spiritual words. I say the same to you, here!

The congregation WAS INDEED SCATTERED, DISPERSED, DIE, ... after Jesus died. You see that even after Jesus showed himself as risen and appeared to the disciples in the upper chamber, THEY STILL WENT BACK TO THEIR DAY JOB.

Peter and Andrew, and others, were found FISHING by Jesus soon after. They had not continued the work Jesus set them of becoming ‘FISHERS OF MEN’. They had gone back to fishing for, umm,... ‘Fish’!!!

Oh, and by the way, be careful of rigorous attention to exact numbers in scriptures... numbers are used SPIRITUALLY. For instance:

• Noah was not in the Ark for EXACTLY 40 days and nights... it’s just a term for ’A long time [in days]’
  
• The Israelites were not in the wilderness for exactly 40 years. It’s just a term meaning as long time [in Years]’
• 144,000 and 12 [x 12] etc, refer to ‘Complete Sets’

Jesus did not RAISE HIMSELF from the dead... so the reference to ‘destroy this temple... I will raise it up in three days’ was meaning the congregation of God in Christ. After scattering the new ‘Christian believers’, Jesus RESTORED IT by his reappearance and spiritual support of them. The congregational CHURCH was thus REBUILT and will last eternally...!!

You need to have serious words with whom ever is your past teacher as they are not teaching you spiritual truth... they are spoon feeding you infected food. But, I guess, if you have no genuine fresh bread to eat then you will eat stale and infected crusts.

But yet, here is true bread and you still consume the infected pieces!!!

This post is a prime example of why I had said I didn't want to discuss it with you. And why I will stop at this point. You aren't able to defend your position, so you resort to personal attacks. I just hope others can see how ridiculous your replies are.

 

[Soapy]

The concept of "essence" predates both Jesus and the Church by roughly 300 years per Aristotle and Plato, plus you see this concept even being used on the Tanakh.

Secondly, there is no logical way to conclude that the "ideology didn't work" because we would have to have the mind of God to actually know that. Believe what you want, I guess, but "beliefs" are not intrinsically the same as "facts".

Obviously, you don't understand the concept of "essence" or you wouldn't have asked the above question. Maybe actually spend a bit of time and look it up, and the Wiki article on it is actually good even though it branches off into many aspects of it.

Let me give you a very brief definition: "The whole is greater than just the sum of its parts". Plug that into the nature of Jesus and you'll have a better grip on what "essence" means in his context.

BTW, in the realm of religion especially, certainty is the enemy of good theology.

Please explain in your own words and supporting quotes from scriptures (not offsite books or webpages or Tom-Dick-and-Harry apres-Jesus Church Fathers).

I am genuinely interested in where this obscure ideology is envisioned in the Christian scriptures.

I have read and heard of this ‘GOD is ESSENCE and NATURE’ from many Trinitarians (not in this forum) over the many years I’ve been debating trinity but have yet to hear ANY CREDIBLE EXPLANATION of this.

Not only that but WHY is there a discrepancy between the idealism of trinity:

1. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
2. God is ESSENCE and NATURE

And if Jesus is God then:

1. Jesus is ‘God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
   
2. Jesus is ‘God: ESSENCE and Nature’

And:

1. The Father is ‘God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
   
2. The Father is ‘God: ESSENCE and Nature’

And:

1. The Holy Spirit is ‘God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
   
2. The Holy Spirit is ‘God: ESSENCE and Nature’

I don’t understand how the Father is God if God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit??? And yet the Father is Essence and Nature!

And also, how did one inseparable part of Essence and Nature SEPARATE himself and became flesh - yet remained INSEPARABLY GOD at the same time?

But what I want to know really - not about essence and nature but about the Son: Jesus BECOMES RULER (aka, GOD) OVER CREATION at the end of time when he sits down on the spiritual throne of his ancestor, King David.

But surely, becoming ruler over creation means Jesus is DEMOTED from being:

• RULER over HEAVEN....
• which the Father STILL WILL BE
• and the Holy Spirit NEVER WAS

No doubt you will say that Jesus is still God over Heaven as well.... because he is God!! But why say he is equal to the Father if he only acquires the throne

 

[Soapy]

This post is a prime example of why I had said I didn't want to discuss it with you. And why I will stop at this point. You aren't able to defend your position, so you resort to personal attacks. I just hope others can see how ridiculous your replies are.

Oh, you mean that you won’t discuss anything with anyone who speaks the truth...!

And, I’ve never found it a problem to defend my position. I wrote loads for you to consume so I can’t see where you say I am not able to defend... but then again, I’m NOT DEFENDING so much as REFUTING your nonsense and RE-ENFORCING what I already stated to you with valid scriptural material. If you call that ‘not answering you’ then I feel sorry for your ability to understand scriptural and spiritual matters.

Ask me something scriptural and I will answer you in Jesus’ name - which means, ‘with integrity, righteousness, and in truth and reverence to almighty Gods.

 

[metis]

Please explain in your own words and supporting quotes from scriptures (not offsite books or webpages or Tom-Dick-and-Harry apres-Jesus Church Fathers).

I don’t understand how the Father is God if God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit???

Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time since you keep on repeating the same 'ole/same 'ole in your last sentence above that shows you still don't understand the concept and obviously have no interest in doing so.

As I stated before, one can disagree with the Trinitareian concept, and I very much question it myself, but at least try and understand it as I did tell you where you can find it being explained. Once you understand it, than there are so many verses that will jump out at you that shows it being used in both testaments. "God was in the wind..." is one that comes to mind from the Tanakh, and "This is my body..." by Jesus in the NT is another. Taken literally, they don't make sense; but taken as allegory, they do.

 

[Soapy]

Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time since you keep on repeating the same 'ole/same 'ole in your last sentence above that shows you still don't understand the concept and obviously have no interest in doing so.

As I stated before, one can disagree with the Trinitareian concept, and I very much question it myself, but at least try and understand it as I did tell you where you can find it being explained. Once you understand it, than there are so many verses that will jump out at you that shows it being used in both testaments. "God was in the wind..." is one that comes to mind from the Tanakh, and "This is my body..." by Jesus in the NT is another. Taken literally, they don't make sense; but taken as allegory, they do.

You seem unable and unwilling to even try to answer any questions I put to you.

There is only one reason for this type of behaviour... You cannot answer!!

Ask me ANY QUESTION about Scriptures and I will answer you in truth, integrity, righteousness, and reverence to Almighty God.

Go ahead. I will show you that if the belief is true and the doctrine is correct, then there is no fear of answering questions about the doctrine and belief.

Go ahead. Ask, and I will answer unto you!!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You seem unable and unwilling to even try to answer any questions I put to you.

There is only one reason for this type of behaviour... You cannot answer!!

Ask me ANY QUESTION about Scriptures and I will answer you in truth, integrity, righteousness, and reverence to Almighty God.

Go ahead. I will show you that if the belief is true and the doctrine is correct, then there is no fear of answering questions about the doctrine and belief.

Go ahead. Ask, and I will answer unto you!!!

He said he wasn't interested in continuing. How can you not understand that? Instead, you put yourself up as the expert to go to for answers. Don't you understand that this is not a forum for people to go to for experts? Its a forum for interchange, where we actually dialogue. The whole reason he lost interest in you was because you couldn't seem to dialogue.

 

[Milton Platt]

A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8​

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

After 2,000 years of arguing among themselves, it seems Christians have still not resolved the question. I'll let them worry about it.