So Jesus is not God?

[JerryMyers]

Christ has all the fullness of God means that Christ is God incarnated.

So said those who follow the words of other people and ignore the words of Jesus himself.

 

[metis]

The word nor the concept of the trinity are in the Bible – never preached by any prophets of God but only by human beings.

The use of the word "Trinity" was coined in an attempt to try and explain the relationship between God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, thus the word itself is not found in the Gospel.

 

[Skywalker]

So said those who follow the words of other people and ignore the words of Jesus himself.

Jesus said he was God. Jesus Christ is God Incarnate

Jesus and God are one.

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

 

[Muffled]

Wrong, the almighty is the son. Elyon is the father. Psalm 91 states:

You who live in the shelter of ‘Elyon,
who spend your nights in the shadow of Shaddai,

Those who live in the shelter of the most high spend their nights in the protection/shadow of the all mighty.

For anyone not to see the need for God to be a trinity is mind boggling.

I don't believe there is any evidence that God is a trinity. There certainly is plenty of evidence that the Trinity is God.

 

[Muffled]

The use of the word "Trinity" was coined in an attempt to try and explain the relationship between God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, thus the word itself is not found in the Gospel.

I believe there are also other trinities in the Bible as well but this one is the most important.

 

[Muffled]

So said those who follow the words of other people and ignore the words of Jesus himself.

I believe we go by the words of Jesus when we say that so you are in error.

 

[Oeste]

Hello @john bannon, and welcome to Religious Forums! I am honored that you chose my thread for your very first post. We all (if I may presumptuously speak for all) look forward to hearing more from you.

No, Yeshua is not Yahweh but the Son of Yahweh, Only the FATHER is GOD, the Almighty. Jn. 17:4

“Jesus is not God” has already been accepted as a premise in the OP. I'm not sure how restating this or how John 17:4 solves the quandary. You would need to elaborate.

John 17:1, 3.

Hi @tigger2. Ditto for these two verses.

I've read John 17:1 all the way through to John 17:4, which encompasses the comment from @john bannon above. I'm not sure how you see these verses interplaying with Romans 5:8.


_______________________________________________________________________


“Jesus is not God” has already been accepted as a premise in the OP.

I certainly don't agree with this premise but I have assumed it for the sake of argument. Unfortunately, once I accept the premise, problems arise with other scripture.

As @74x12 pointed out earlier, God is the source of love:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.. (1 John 4:8)​

And we also know how the ultimate in greater love is shown:

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13)​

And to drive the point a little further, we know a servant is not greater than his master:

Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' (John 15:20)​

Now, with this in mind...that scripture is authoritative...we come back to our premise that Jesus is not God and Romans 5:8

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."​

How is it God who demonstrates His own love when it is His son, Christ who dies? Who actually is showing greater love here?


In other words, how do we harmonize 1 John 4:8, John 15:13, John 15:20, and Romans 5:8 once we accept the doctrine “Jesus is not God”?

Again, this is fairly easy when Jesus is God. I'm just wondering how harmonization occurs when he is not.

 

[JerryMyers]

Jesus said he was God. Jesus Christ is God Incarnate

Jesus NEVER said he was God but, other people did because they misinterpreted, intentionally or unintentionally, the scriptures.

As an example, in John 10:30, if Jesus meant to say he and God are one and the same person, then Jesus, must be praying to God to make all his disciples Gods too when he said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them MAY BE ONE, Father, just as YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that YOU HAVE SENT ME. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – John 17:20-23).

In saying ‘I and my Father are one’, Jesus was talking about COMPLETE UNITY, NOT that he and God are one and the same person – Jesus himself said so in your own scripture , for God’s sake !! Why are you still listening to other people and ignoring Jesus own words ???!

 

[JerryMyers]

The use of the word "Trinity" was coined in an attempt to try and explain the relationship between God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, thus the word itself is not found in the Gospel.

An attempt to explain the relationship, maybe. To say God is a ‘3-in-1’ God is blasphemy because God is the ABSOLUTE ONE, not a one-team God made up of 3 god members – that’s simply nonsense !

 

[JerryMyers]

Christ has all the fullness of God means that Christ is God incarnated.

Again, the fullness of God in Jesus doesn’t make him God. Clearly, Paul did not see the fullness of God in someone means that someone is God too. In Ephesians 3:19 Paul said everyone should be filled with “all the fullness of God,” – does that mean Paul wanted everyone to be God ???

To have the fullness of God simply means to feel the presence of God in oneself, and Jesus, being a prophet of God definitely felt or filled with the fullness of God in him. In Ephesians 3:19, Paul prayed that every one too should feel or have the presence or fullness of God in themselves too.

 

[rational experiences]

Jesus said he was God. Jesus Christ is God Incarnate

Science.

A human thinks about science first.

Attacks natural.

Says I was sacrificed as a baby to man adult by adult father self. As a human.

Conscious first. Natural. Changed

The teaching. Natural thinking no longer existed as awareness origins.

Reason fake science conditions chosen introduced.

Science then owned human teaching self possession versus consciousness.

Son and father human one life not two.

Science introduced separated not natural thinking concepts.

The thinker not Jesus not God yet is thinking about Jesus and God.

 

[metis]

An attempt to explain the relationship, maybe. To say God is a ‘3-in-1’ God is blasphemy because God is the ABSOLUTE ONE, not a one-team God made up of 3 god members – that’s simply nonsense !

In order to understand the Trinitarian concept, one needs to understand the use of "essence" within the early Church. To put it another way, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the Father but not literally the Father.

The Gospel was very early on written in or translated into Koine Greek, whereas there was an understanding of the Greek philosophers use of "essence" as promulgated by Aristotle and Plato especially. This is repeatedly used within the Gospels, such as found in Jesus' "The Father and I are one".

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus NEVER said he was God but, other people did because they misinterpreted, intentionally or unintentionally, the scriptures.

As an example, in John 10:30, if Jesus meant to say he and God are one and the same person, then Jesus, must be praying to God to make all his disciples Gods too when he said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them MAY BE ONE, Father, just as YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that YOU HAVE SENT ME. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – John 17:20-23).

In saying ‘I and my Father are one’, Jesus was talking about COMPLETE UNITY, NOT that he and God are one and the same person – Jesus himself said so in your own scripture , for God’s sake !! Why are you still listening to other people and ignoring Jesus own words ???!

Jesus said in John 10:30 I and my Father are one. If a person said that they are one with the Father that would be blasphemous. People say that they are one with the universe but the universe isn't God. People call God Father but that's different from saying you are one with God.

 

[Skywalker]

Again, the fullness of God in Jesus doesn’t make him God. Clearly, Paul did not see the fullness of God in someone means that someone is God too. In Ephesians 3:19 Paul said everyone should be filled with “all the fullness of God,” – does that mean Paul wanted everyone to be God ???

To have the fullness of God simply means to feel the presence of God in oneself, and Jesus, being a prophet of God definitely felt or filled with the fullness of God in him. In Ephesians 3:19, Paul prayed that every one too should feel or have the presence or fullness of God in themselves too.

The context of Ephesians 3:19 shows that it's about the divinity of Jesus. To understand the meaning of a verse in the Bible you have to look at the context of it. The context of Ephesians 3:19 shows that Jesus is divine. When you read the Bible over and over again you notice things that you didn't notice before. Col. 2:9 and Eph. 3:19 the Deity of Jesus | carm.org

Col. 2:9 and Eph. 3:19
by Matt Slick | Nov 24, 2008 | Doctrine and Theology, Christianity

• “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (Col. 2:9, NASB).
• “and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God” (Eph. 3:19, NASB).

Colossians 2:9 is often used by Trinitarians to support the doctrine that Jesus is God in flesh. It clearly states that in Jesus, deity dwells. What is interesting about this verse is that it contains a word used only once in the entire Bible: “deity.” Deity means, “The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.” This verse states that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of God or all the fullness of the condition of being divine.

However, critics of the doctrine of Jesus’ deity will go to Eph. 3:19 which says something similar but not identical to Col. 2:9. It says”. . . that you [the Christians] may be filled up to all the fullness of God.” These verses are similar, and opponents of the Trinity will attempt to use Ephesians to deny that Colossians 2:9 states that Jesus is God. They rightly observe that Eph. 3:19 says that Christians are filled with the fullness of God. They then reason that if we are filled with the fullness of God and we are not divine, then when Col. 2:9 says that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of deity, then neither is He divine.

One of the mistakes in the assumption that Eph. 3:19 interprets or clarifies Col. 2:9 is the failure to read the verses in context. After all, the verses are in different books. Without looking at the context of both, it isn’t proper to simply quote the two in juxtaposition and make a pronouncement that Col. 2:9 does not mean Jesus is God because of a slightly similar usage of words in Eph. 3:19. Therefore, let’s look at the context of each.

• Colossians 2
• • v. 2 true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself
  • v. 4, that no one deceive you with persuasive arguments
  • v. 6, walk in Christ
  • v. 7, rooted and built up in Jesus
  • v. 8, see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy.
  • v. 9, for in Jesus dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form.
• Ephesians 3
  • v. 1, Paul a prisoner of Christ.
  • v. 3, By revelation, Paul received knowledge of ‘the mystery.’
  • v. 6, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body
  • v. 10, in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known
  • v. 14, Paul prays for the Ephesians
  • v. 16, that God would strengthen them with power through the Holy Spirit.
  • v. 17, that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, being grounded in love
  • v. 18, that they may comprehend with all the saints
  • v. 19, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

 

[JerryMyers]

In order to understand the Trinitarian concept, one needs to understand the use of "essence" within the early Church. To put it another way, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the Father but not literally the Father.

The Gospel was very early on written in or translated into Koine Greek, whereas there was an understanding of the Greek philosophers use of "essence" as promulgated by Aristotle and Plato especially. This is repeatedly used within the Gospels, such as found in Jesus' "The Father and I are one".

So, was Jesus trying to tell the people that he’s God when he said “The Father and I are one” ?

 

[JerryMyers]

Jesus said in John 10:30 I and my Father are one. If a person said that they are one with the Father that would be blasphemous. People say that they are one with the universe but the universe isn't God. People call God Father but that's different from saying you are one with God.

If Jesus, or anyone, said ‘I and my Father are one’ to indicate that he and God are one and the same person, that’s blasphemy by any standard. If a person or Jesus said that they are one with God to indicate that they are in unity with God’s Mission and Plans, that’s NOT blasphemy. That should be very clear.

 

[JerryMyers]

The context of Ephesians 3:19 shows that it's about the divinity of Jesus. To understand the meaning of a verse in the Bible you have to look at the context of it. The context of Ephesians 3:19 shows that Jesus is divine. When you read the Bible over and over again you notice things that you didn't notice before. Col. 2:9 and Eph. 3:19 the Deity of Jesus | carm.org

You should stop depending on carm.org for your information and read to understand the Bible yourself. Not all Christians will agree with CARM.org founder, Matt Slick - https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/matt-slick-exposed.htm

 

[Skywalker]

If Jesus, or anyone, said ‘I and my Father are one’ to indicate that he and God are one and the same person, that’s blasphemy by any standard. If a person or Jesus said that they are one with God to indicate that they are in unity with God’s Mission and Plans, that’s NOT blasphemy. That should be very clear.

Jesus could have indicated He was in unity with God's mission and plans without saying I and the Father are one. Jesus wasn't preaching unity, He was saying that He was God.

After reading these verses, Mr. Al Kadhi concludes: "In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand." Is this what the verse really says?

This passage begins as Jesus was on his way to the Temple in Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of the Dedication, a holiday that we know as Hanukkah. A crowd, which was full of men who wanted to destroy Jesus, gathered around him and asked if he was the Christ - the long awaited Messiah of the Jews. Jesus accused them of disbelief because they were "not his sheep" since his sheep (or followers) listened to His voice. In verse 28, Jesus not only says that no one can snatch them from his hand, he also gives them "eternal life"! Giving eternal life is something that only God can give, therefore, Jesus implied that He and God are one. The Jewish crowd that heard these words knew exactly what Jesus was saying and many believed that Jesus had committed blasphemy by claiming to do what only God can do. In verse 30, Jesus claimed to be One with God.

31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,

Why did the Jews want to kill Jesus? Because He said that He and his followers are one in purpose? No! They wanted to kill Jesus because they believed that He committed blasphemy by claiming to be One with God, not because He preached unity!

 

[Skywalker]

You should stop depending on carm.org for your information and read to understand the Bible yourself. Not all Christians will agree with CARM.org founder, Matt Slick - https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/matt-slick-exposed.htm

Being filled with the fullness of God in Ephesians 3:19 is not comparable to the divinity of Jesus mentioned in Colossians 2:9

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The fullness of the Godhead doesn't bodily dwell in a believer. To interpret the correct meaning of Bible verses, you have to read the context.

 

[JerryMyers]

Jesus could have indicated He was in unity with God's mission and plans without saying I and the Father are one. Jesus wasn't preaching unity, He was saying that He was God.

By saying “I and my father are one”, Jesus IS indicating he’s in unity with God’s mission and plans !!

Let me say it again - If you understand “I and my Father are one’ means Jesus is saying he’s God, then was Jesus praying to God to make all his disciples Gods too when he said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them MAY BE ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that YOU HAVE SENT ME. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – John 17:20-23 ?

The phrase ‘AS WE ARE ONE’ is a reference to Jesus’ “I and my Father are one’. Why did Jesus want his disciples to be one just as he and God are one ? So that they are all in the state of complete unity with God’s plans and only then, the world will know it was God who sent Jesus, NOT that Jesus sent himself to the world – it’s all there in John 17:20-23 !! It’s mind-boggling that you keep listening to other people's words and keep harping Jesus is God when Jesus’ own words in your own scripture said otherwise !!