So Jesus is not God?

[JerryMyers]

I believe that is false. God saying He is one with Himself is not blasphemy. If a human were to say that it would be blasphemy.

I believe you do not know what is truth and what is false. Where in your Bible did God say He is one with Himself ?? Oh, wait !! Are you saying Jesus is God too ??! Do you even know the meaning of blasphemy ?? Don’t you know Jesus himself denied he’s God/God’s son/God the Son ??

 

[JerryMyers]

Lol.....touche amigo, touche.....

Senor, I like your sense of humor.......

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

I believe you do not know what is truth and what is false. Where in your Bible did God say He is one with Himself ?? Oh, wait !! Are you saying Jesus is God too ??! Do you even know the meaning of blasphemy ?? Don’t you know Jesus himself denied he’s God/God’s son/God the Son ??

But, realistically, that in itself does not mean Jesus wasn't God. there could be reasons for his denial, such as hiding his identity, as he did with the Messiah idea. So that's not a good ground to say Jesus isn't God. He was, after all exalted entirely with the fullness of the Godhead according to Philippians.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

I believe you do not know how trinity is defined in Christianity.

Merriam-Webster dictionary defined trinity as ‘: the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma’.

Even so, don’t you know according to your own scripture, God dwells in all of us, NOT just in 3 persons ??

And it was definitely part of Paul's soteriology that we live so as to have Christ in us as well. His conversion definitely turned things around for him...

 

[JerryMyers]

But, realistically, that in itself does not mean Jesus wasn't God. there could be reasons for his denial, such as hiding his identity, as he did with the Messiah idea. So that's not a good ground to say Jesus isn't God. He was, after all exalted entirely with the fullness of the Godhead according to Philippians.

But realistically, that is exactly what it means – Jesus is not God because he denied it himself. The Jews were accusing Jesus of committing blasphemy, and the fact that he denied himself of any blasphemy means he was denying he is God/God’s Son/God the Son.

When Jesus denied he was using the help of Beelzebul, the prince of demons, to heal a blind and mute demon-possessed man, can we understand that denial too as ‘in itself does not mean Jesus wasn’t using the help of Beelzebul and there could be reasons for his denial’ ??? Give me a break !!

You can bend backward trying to prove Jesus is God, but the fact remains - Trinitarians only got conjectures, assumptions, and the words of other people (like in Philippians) to support their belief. Try to use the words of Jesus to prove he is God – that is, without misinterpreting or trying to ‘tailor-fit’ your belief into his words.

 

[JerryMyers]

And it was definitely part of Paul's soteriology that we live so as to have Christ in us as well. His conversion definitely turned things around for him...

Sure, Paul’s soteriology.. as expected. Are you a 'Paul’s follower' or a 'Jesus’ follower' ?? You sure seem to lean heavily on Pauline theology.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

Sure, Paul’s soteriology.. as expected. Are you a 'Paul’s follower' or a 'Jesus’ follower' ?? You sure seem to lean heavily on Pauline theology.

So Paul isn't part of the scripture? Does it matter who in the scripture we quote? You sure seem to use him for your own interpretation, why can't the rest of us? You make an unnecessary and unrealistic division between Paul and Jesus, which I used to do at one time. So, IS Paul valid as scripture or not? If Paul's soteriology is wrong, just HOW then has it remained in and as scripture for 2000 years?!

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

But realistically, that is exactly what it means – Jesus is not God because he denied it himself. The Jews were accusing Jesus of committing blasphemy, and the fact that he denied himself of any blasphemy means he was denying he is God/God’s Son/God the Son.

When Jesus denied he was using the help of Beelzebul, the prince of demons, to heal a blind and mute demon-possessed man, can we understand that denial too as ‘in itself does not mean Jesus wasn’t using the help of Beelzebul and there could be reasons for his denial’ ??? Give me a break !!

You can bend backward trying to prove Jesus is God, but the fact remains - Trinitarians only got conjectures, assumptions, and the words of other people (like in Philippians) to support their belief. Try to use the words of Jesus to prove he is God – that is, without misinterpreting or trying to ‘tailor-fit’ your belief into his words.

Sigh......your vehemence is entirely silly. I am trying to have a conversation. Why the intensity and anger and ad hominim?

 

[rational experiences]

In science all products taken from earth.

Consciousness self aware however lives inside heavens. Human bio.

God is stone.

Humans bio own bones like God earth.

Scientist.

Thinks.

I wonder how bones like stone exist inside of a human bio life.

Reason for a human to say to the thinker my bio life is not science. Is not God science stone products just so he won't strip our flesh and blood conditions not God stone from our not any God line body.

Human reasons against evil human thinkers.

 

[JerryMyers]

So Paul isn't part of the scripture? Does it matter who in the scripture we quote? You sure seem to use him for your own interpretation, why can't the rest of us? You make an unnecessary and unrealistic division between Paul and Jesus, which I used to do at one time. So, IS Paul valid as scripture or not? If Paul's soteriology is wrong, just HOW then has it remained in and as scripture for 2000 years?!

Paul is just one of the characters in the Bible, and there are many. Judas who betrayed Jesus, and the Jews who accused Jesus of blasphemy, lying, employed demons in his healing of others, etc, etc, are all characters in the Bible. The fact that they are mentioned in the Bible and ‘remained in and as scripture for 2000 years’ DON’T MAKE their words valid and the truth.

Jesus has NEVER preached that you MUST BELIEVE in his death and be raised from the dead to be saved from your sin while Paul preached “And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins”. Jesus preached the forgiveness of sin through repentance while Paul preached forgiveness of sin by just believing that Jesus died and rose again. Does that answer your question ??

 

[JerryMyers]

Sigh......your vehemence is entirely silly. I am trying to have a conversation. Why the intensity and anger and ad hominim?

Well, that’s one way to avoid responding to a comment that one doesn’t have any logical response !!

But, I could be wrong, so let’s try this again, here’s my earlier comment (minus ‘the vehemence, intensity and anger’) – “But realistically, that is exactly what it means – Jesus is not God because he denied it himself. The Jews were accusing Jesus of committing blasphemy and the fact that he denied himself of blasphemy means he was denying he is God/God’s Son/God the Son. When Jesus denied he was using the help of Beelzebul, the prince of demons, to heal a blind and mute demon-possessed man, can we understand that denial too as ‘in itself does not mean Jesus wasn’t using the help of Beelzebul and there could be reasons for his denial’ ???” Now, would like to respond to that, please ?? Try not to make assumptions and try to stick to what Jesus said rather than what other people said.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

The fact that they are mentioned in the Bible and ‘remained in and as scripture for 2000 years’ DON’T MAKE their words valid and the truth.

So, how do we tell what is true in scripture and what is false? Which parts of the New Testament would you take out? I mean, if it ain't true, it shouldn't be in the Bible should it? Shall we eliminate Titus and Ephesians, and 1 and 2 Corinthians? Which ones aren't true and valid, and how do we go about learning that so we can quit using them? Is Matthew true? How about John or 1 Peter?

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

Jesus has NEVER preached that you MUST BELIEVE in his death and be raised from the dead to be saved from your

Jesus has NEVER preached you HAVE TO BELIEVE anything. Crimany for all that, we have no idea what Jesus actually said since everything we have of him is from remembrances of later writers. He never wrote anything except in the sand once, and that didn't survive, so we have nothing to go on.

 

[JerryMyers]

So, how do we tell what is true in scripture and what is false? Which parts of the New Testament would you take out? I mean, if it ain't true, it shouldn't be in the Bible should it? Shall we eliminate Titus and Ephesians, and 1 and 2 Corinthians? Which ones aren't true and valid, and how do we go about learning that so we can quit using them? Is Matthew true? How about John or 1 Peter?

Good questions but the answer is obvious. To know what is true and what is false in the Scripture, you first need to know what God had said about Himself and what Jesus had said of himself in the Scripture, and NOT what other people said of who God is or who Jesus is – that should be the basis if you really want to understand the scripture, and of course, a logical and rational mind will help too.

Once you are well-versed with what God has said of Himself and what Jesus has said of himself, then, any sayings from other people that are not aligned with the sayings of God or His prophet, Jesus, just cannot be true. For example, in the OT, there are many verses of God saying He’s only ONE and besides Him, there’s none (Isaiah 45:5, Isaiah 44:8, Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:18…..). Earlier prophets too reiterated God as One and Only God (Deuteronomy 4:35 and 4:39, 1 Kings 8:60…). Thus, if God Himself had said besides Him, there are no others, and the earlier prophets reiterated the same, then, any preaching that said Jesus is God just CANNOT be true ! Jesus himself made a clear distinction between him and God and told you who you should know is the true God (John 17:3)!! So clearly all the preaching about Jesus being part of a triune God, are just conjectures as NONE of the prophets, including Jesus, ever preached trinity.

 

[JerryMyers]

Jesus has NEVER preached you HAVE TO BELIEVE anything.

That’s not true – Jesus did preach that you have to believe in the one true God who sent him. Jesus was sent to preach the kingdom of God (Luke 4:43), he was NEVER sent to die for all mankind's sins.

Crimany for all that, we have no idea what Jesus actually said since everything we have of him is from remembrances of later writers. He never wrote anything except in the sand once, and that didn't survive, so we have nothing to go on.

That’s not true either. Most of what Jesus himself was recorded as saying in the Scripture, can be taken as true as those sayings did not contradict who God is, that is, God is One and Only. It’s only when other people make claims on behalf of Jesus, that we need to be wary of.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

That’s not true – Jesus did preach that you have to believe in the one true God who sent him. Jesus was sent to preach the kingdom of God (Luke 4:43), he was NEVER sent to die for all mankind's sins.

That isn't a quote from Jesus saying we HAVE to believe in one God. We are not forced to believe anything. Jesus never did say we have to believe in God, there is always the option not to, but with consequences. And the scripture most certainly says God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son to die. Your cherry picking doesn't change that. Jesus is God as per John. The Logos.

Read John chapter 1. John 17:11 (notice the nominative personal pronoun!) has Jesus praying to be one with the Father and thanked him for making this state of affairs possible. John 17:21 clearly says God is in Jesus and can be in the ones Jesus prays for as they are in Him and the Father. John 17:22 once again says they are one. John 17:23 Jesus says being in the Father as He is is their perfection. It is entirely possible, if Jesus knows what he is talking about. I have a tendency to accept that for some reason. How about you? This is not John talking about Jesus, it is Jesus' own prayer.

And I have no idea why you keep bringing up the trinity, I don't believe in it either.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

Good questions but the answer is obvious. To know what is true and what is false in the Scripture, you first need to know what God had said about Himself and what Jesus had said of himself in the Scripture, and NOT what other people said of who God is or who Jesus is – that should be the basis if you really want to understand the scripture, and of course, a logical and rational mind will help too.

So, since scripture is literally about what others have said (no exceptions) just how do we go about this?

 

[JerryMyers]

We are not forced to believe anything.

Prophets are sent by God ONLY to convey and preach His Message to the people they are sent to, they are NOT sent to force anyone. Prophets are just bearers of the ‘Good News’ to those who listen to their prophets and at the same time, prophets are warners to those who reject their prophets’ preaching. God gave man the faculty of intelligence to think logically and rationally of what their respective prophet said and preached. You are not forced to believe in anything as everything is about you making choices. It’s your choice whether you want to believe what your prophet is saying or not, but still many find it more appealing to listen to other people than to listen to their own prophet.

That isn't a quote from Jesus saying we HAVE to believe in one God. Jesus never did say we have to believe in God, there is always the option not to, but with consequences.

That’s not correct –
In Mark12:29, Jesus said “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE”.

In John 5:24, Jesus said, “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”.

So, if you listen to Jesus’ words in Mark 12:29 and John 5:24, Jesus DID say God is ONE and he DID say you HAVE TO BELIEVE in this ONE God if you want eternal life.

But you are right – there is always the option whether you want to listen to Jesus or listen to the words of other people….and we know who you listen to, don’t we ??

And the scripture most certainly says God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son to die. Your cherry picking doesn't change that.

Which English-translated Bible are you reading ?? There’s NOT a SINGLE verse in the WHOLE Bible that said God sent Jesus to die. But you can prove me wrong here, so, please quote that particular verse that said God sent Jesus to die – I sincerely hope you can quote that verse in your Bible as I hate to think of you as just one of those guys who just run their mouth making outlandish claims without any proofs !!

By the way, the word ‘begotten’ in John 3:16 is proven to be fabricated and that’s why most of today English-translated Bibles, with the exception of the KJV version, have all removed the word ‘begotten’ in their versions of John 3:16.

Jesus is God as per John. The Logos. Read John chapter 1.

The Word of God, is Jesus ONLY in John 1, nowhere else, because John 1 is about how God creates Jesus, and God creates by just uttering a Word and we said it is the Word of God because it was uttered by God.

The Word of God IS NOT exclusively a title for Jesus, and Jesus himself has NEVER referred to himself as ‘the Word’. The phrase ‘W/word (logos) of God’ can be found in other verses too. In Matthew 15:6, we read “you nullify the W/word (logos) of God for the sake of your tradition” which means you nullify the Command of God for the sake of your tradition, NOT that ‘you nullify Jesus’ and in Hebrew 13:7 “leaders who spoke the W/word (logos) of God” which means leaders who spoke what God had spoken, NOT that the leaders who spoke Jesus.

The Greek word ‘logos’ is also a masculine noun and so, at times, it was also referred to as a ‘he/him’. In John 1:3, it was NOT Jesus who created all things, but it was God who created all things and God creates by just uttering a word which is the ‘he’ in John 1:3.

John 17:11 (notice the nominative personal pronoun!) has Jesus praying to be one with the Father and thanked him for making this state of affairs possible. John 17:21 clearly says God is in Jesus and can be in the ones Jesus prays for as they are in Him and the Father. John 17:22 once again says they are one. John 17:23 Jesus says being in the Father as He is is their perfection. It is entirely possible if Jesus knows what he is talking about. I have a tendency to accept that for some reason. How about you? This is not John talking about Jesus, it is Jesus' own prayer.

John 17:11 reads “I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one”. In John 17:11, Jesus was NOT praying to be one with the Father, BUT he was praying for his disciples to be one with the Father, just like he was one with the Father (remember Jesus said ‘My Father and I are one’ ?)– so, if being one with God means Jesus is God, then, Jesus must be praying for his disciples to be Gods too !!

John 17:21-23 reads “that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me” – so, if God being in Jesus makes Jesus God, then, Jesus being in his disciples (I in them) will make his disciples him ???! Is it entirely possible, if Jesus knows what he is talking about, which obviously he does, then perhaps, it’s you who don’t know what Jesus is talking about ?? I have the tendency to believe that’s the case here.

And I have no idea why you keep bringing up the trinity, I don't believe in it either.

You don’t believe in the trinity but you believe Jesus is God ???!! The reason the Trinitarians are making claims Jesus is God IS to support the doctrine of trinity !! If Jesus is NOT God, which he’s NOT, then, the doctrine of the trinity will just collapse, so, I can understand from where the Trinitarians are coming from, but why are you pushing the notion that Jesus is God if you don’t believe in trinity ??? Maybe because only God can and must die in order to redeem the sin of mankind, so Jesus must be God ???! Is that why you are pushing the notion that Jesus is God ???!!

 

[JerryMyers]

So, since scripture is literally about what others have said (no exceptions) just how do we go about this?

It’s NOT about what others have said, it’s about what Jesus has said. Since Jesus himself did not record his own sayings in any form, so, to a certain extent, you have to take the accounts of the NT as to what Jesus did said and NOT of what other people said, in and outside the Scripture.

By ‘other people’, we mean the words of ‘other than Jesus’ like Paul, personal opinions of the NT writers, scholars, preachers, etc. For instance, your church/preachers told you Jesus is God because Jesus said, God and he are one and God is in him, which are just conjectures and pure nonsense as the Scripture also said Jesus prayed to God for his disciples to be one just as he and God are one, which then, explains that the phrase ‘being one with God/God in oneself’ means to be in complete harmony with God’s Plan and Mission.

If I said my boss and I are one, which I have said a number of times, that does not mean my boss and I are one and the same person, it means we share the Company’s vision, mission and objectives in making our company relevant and we would NOT make decisions that are against the Company’s mission and objectives. Likewise, ‘God in Jesus’ does not mean God literally live in Jesus, it means whatever Jesus did/said something, he only did/said on God’s instructions, so much so, figuratively speaking, we can say God is living in him. It’s not uncommon to hear of people who adore Elvis so much that they act, talk and dress like Elvis, so much so, one can say Elvis is living in these people! No one will believe Elvis is literally living in them !!

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

Jesus was NOT praying to be one with the Father, BUT he was praying for his disciples to be one with the Father, just like he was one with the Father (remember Jesus said ‘My Father and I are one’ ?)– so, if being one with God means Jesus is God, then, Jesus must be praying for his disciples to be Gods too !!

That obviously has you terrified doesn't it....Lol......