So Jesus is not God?

[YoursTrue]

This is interesting....

Does the flesh have its own Spirit... or was it enlivened by the Spirit of God (YHWH)?

Did YHWH spill his own blood? Does YHWH have blood?

Since it was man that sinned, how is it that GOD died for the sin of man?
YHWH died but didn’t die? How are you defining ‘die’?

Good questions. I'll look for the answers from the person you asked.

 

[Muffled]

I don't understand your question.

I believe my mind accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior but that will perish when I die but my spirit also must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior because that lives n after I am dead.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe my mind accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior but that will perish when I die but my spirit also must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior because that lives n after I am dead.

Thank you for explaining that. Your spirit goes back to God, who does with it as he pleases. Remember, it is God who breathed into Adams nostrils and he came to life. So later perhaps we can discuss how spirit is used in the Bible. Thanks for your answer, appreciated.

 

[moorea944]

I believe my mind accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior but that will perish when I die but my spirit also must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior because that lives n after I am dead.

Didnt the serpent say that too?

 

[moorea944]

Thank you for explaining that. Your spirit goes back to God, who does with it as he pleases. Remember, it is God who breathed into Adams nostrils and he came to life. So later perhaps we can discuss how spirit is used in the Bible. Thanks for your answer, appreciated.

Good answer, thank you. I think alot of people see certain words differently than other people and what scripture teaches. Words like, "soul" & "spirit". Talk to 10 people and get 10 different answers. But anyhow, great posts.

 

[YoursTrue]

Good answer, thank you. I think alot of people see certain words differently than other people and what scripture teaches. Words like, "soul" & "spirit". Talk to 10 people and get 10 different answers. But anyhow, great posts.

Thank you. I agree with you about soul and spirit. Mix that with breath and there you have it! Slight joke there...

 

[Onoma]

How about a little gedanken ?

Would Jesus be able to make himself not Jesus ?

In other words, could he remove his divinity and supposedly supernatural origin ?

If he could, then logically he wouldn't be God anymore

If he couldn't, he's not all powerful and therefore not God



-------------------------------

I think the main problem in understanding how a man can be a god/God is the lack of study into the actual history of men claiming to be gods, and how / why it started, which to my knowledge was with Naram-Sin

Also, there's a major problem in assuming that speech in the Bible is using modern colloquialisms when it says something like " all powerful " or " all knowing ". Applying that type of literal exegesis of any other ancient literature would have someone sounding rather silly

By that same literalist metric it would be impossible for Jesus to not cheat at poker because he'd know everyone's hands, therefore Jesus is inherently a cheater

The closest thing to Hypostatic union prior to Jesus would have been Mesopotamian priest-kings serving as the mediators between God, the gods and all of mankind, but this is complicated in that in many cases, gods were actually planets, stars ( Or the moon ) and the priest-king was actually responsible for calculation of the god's cycles, so for something like the moon god, sacerdotal duties included eclipse cycle calculations, times of new moon, etc, as well as maintaining the ephemerides ( Tables of astronomy data written down by the priest )

For example: Sin, the moon god worshipped as the head of the pantheon in the time Abraham supposedly lived in Ur, Babylon ( Chaldean ), and as a priest-king who served under Sin, they were never considered " all-powerful " or " all-knowing " in the modern sense ( Literalist )

As a priest-king, someone bearing the official title " King of the four quarters " didn't mean they were king of everything in every direction, rather what was visible by the eye, in the confines of " supuk same " ( The firmament )

Also, interestingly, in the case of earlier cognates to the Semitic " El " ( God ), the cuneiform cognate " dingir " was the textual silent determinant written next to the names of deified priest-kings ( Starting with Naram-Sin ), with the cuneiform symbol being the Sumerian ideogram of a star

In the Bible, this divinity of Jesus' status as a priest-king is signified by the " little horn " written over all nomina sacra in Greek manuscripts ( The titlo - a line drawn over an abbreviated sacred name / place / object ), but it is in reality no different then the earlier Mesopotamian signification of divinity, iow, they both serve the same purpose in literature

Really what it boils down to, imo, is that there is a serious deficit of the investigation into divinity in the days of the Bible and especially prior to it, and the ignorance of the historical basis for the things in the Bible only serves to muddy the waters

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe my mind accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior but that will perish when I die but my spirit also must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior because that lives n after I am dead.

Your mind will perish when you die?

 

[Soapy]

Your mind will perish when you die?

Your body perishes: ‘Ashes to Ashes; Dust to Dust’.

Your ‘Mind’ (Spirit) goes to rest - inactive, with God.

 

[Muffled]

Didnt the serpent say that too?

I don't believe I am into quoting serpents but I don't recall anything to that affect.

 

[Muffled]

Good answer, thank you. I think alot of people see certain words differently than other people and what scripture teaches. Words like, "soul" & "spirit". Talk to 10 people and get 10 different answers. But anyhow, great posts.

I am willing to wager nine out of the ten will be wrong although I couldn't rule out the tenth either if it isn't someone who has the Holy Spirit as a guide.

 

[Muffled]

How about a little gedanken ?

Would Jesus be able to make himself not Jesus ?

In other words, could he remove his divinity and supposedly supernatural origin ?

If he could, then logically he wouldn't be God anymore

If he couldn't, he's not all powerful and therefore not God



-------------------------------

I think the main problem in understanding how a man can be a god/God is the lack of study into the actual history of men claiming to be gods, and how / why it started, which to my knowledge was with Naram-Sin

Also, there's a major problem in assuming that speech in the Bible is using modern colloquialisms when it says something like " all powerful " or " all knowing ". Applying that type of literal exegesis of any other ancient literature would have someone sounding rather silly

By that same literalist metric it would be impossible for Jesus to not cheat at poker because he'd know everyone's hands, therefore Jesus is inherently a cheater

The closest thing to Hypostatic union prior to Jesus would have been Mesopotamian priest-kings serving as the mediators between God, the gods and all of mankind, but this is complicated in that in many cases, gods were actually planets, stars ( Or the moon ) and the priest-king was actually responsible for calculation of the god's cycles, so for something like the moon god, sacerdotal duties included eclipse cycle calculations, times of new moon, etc, as well as maintaining the ephemerides ( Tables of astronomy data written down by the priest )

For example: Sin, the moon god worshipped as the head of the pantheon in the time Abraham supposedly lived in Ur, Babylon ( Chaldean ), and as a priest-king who served under Sin, they were never considered " all-powerful " or " all-knowing " in the modern sense ( Literalist )

As a priest-king, someone bearing the official title " King of the four quarters " didn't mean they were king of everything in every direction, rather what was visible by the eye, in the confines of " supuk same " ( The firmament )

Also, interestingly, in the case of earlier cognates to the Semitic " El " ( God ), the cuneiform cognate " dingir " was the textual silent determinant written next to the names of deified priest-kings ( Starting with Naram-Sin ), with the cuneiform symbol being the Sumerian ideogram of a star

In the Bible, this divinity of Jesus' status as a priest-king is signified by the " little horn " written over all nomina sacra in Greek manuscripts ( The titlo - a line drawn over an abbreviated sacred name / place / object ), but it is in reality no different then the earlier Mesopotamian signification of divinity, iow, they both serve the same purpose in literature

Really what it boils down to, imo, is that there is a serious deficit of the investigation into divinity in the days of the Bible and especially prior to it, and the ignorance of the historical basis for the things in the Bible only serves to muddy the waters

I believe the physical mind of Jesus could not remove the Spirit of God but the Spirit of God could remove Himself.

 

[Onoma]

I believe the physical mind of Jesus could not remove the Spirit of God but the Spirit of God could remove Himself.

Aside from the problem I have with the definition of " physical mind " ( What is that ? ) Wouldn't that then make Jesus not " all-powerful " ?

 

[Soapy]

Aside from the problem I have with the definition of " physical mind " ( What is that ? ) Wouldn't that then make Jesus not " all-powerful " ?

You are right... there is no such thing as a “physical mind”.

The Spirit of a person controls the actions of the body... pure and simple.

The mind IS the Spirit... no difference -it’s just that different language and philosophies define different words for it and thus confuse innocent readers when used here and there and elsewhere.

Scriptures tells us that there is a body (‘dust of the earth’) and there is a spirit that enlivens it. The body without a spirit is a DEAD SOUL - but Body with a spirit in it is a LIVING SOUL... and, there are those who can destroy the body BUT NOT THE SPIRIT... we are to not fear these... but the ONE TO FEAR (Healthy and reverential fear!!) is YHWH who can destroy BOTH the Body and the Spirit...

So there are only two parts to humanity to discuss - which puts away the claim from the trinitarian camp that ‘Image of God’ means Jesus is ‘Gods... Jesus, like all humans, is Body and spirit... not THREE IN ONE. ..... but remember also that if Jesus is, by trinity, God because of being ‘Son of God’ and ‘Image of God’... then please may it be noted large and clear:

• ADAM WAS ALSO ‘IMAGE OF GOD’ ... and
• ADAM WAS ‘SON OF GOD’

So... if the claim is that Jesus is God because of the above premises then ADAM should also be called ‘God’ by the SAME PREMISES..!!!

Happily, there are true believers (no, not exactly the poster in this forum by ‘nearly’ that name) who understand scriptures in its righteous and truthful testimony - just as Jesus expounded its to his followers and them to us.

To God the Father, the one true God, and to Jesus Christ, the king over creation and the high priest to Yhwh God!! Belief in the one true God and in Jesus Christ whom HE SENT will pave the way towards eternal life in the kingdom of the Son of YHWH’s love.

 

[Muffled]

Aside from the problem I have with the definition of " physical mind " ( What is that ? ) Wouldn't that then make Jesus not " all-powerful " ?

I believe the mind of God is not physical so Jesus has two minds as we all do, a physical one and a spiritual one.

I believe Jesus is all powerful. The physical mind is not able to limit the spiritual mind.

 

[moorea944]

I believe the mind of God is not physical so Jesus has two minds as we all do, a physical one and a spiritual one.

I believe Jesus is all powerful. The physical mind is not able to limit the spiritual mind.

Jesus has two minds as we all do? Can you explain? Not really sure were your coming from... I think we have only one mind.

You mentioned that Jesus is all powerful. He is not, only God is.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus has two minds as we all do? Can you explain? Not really sure were your coming from... I think we have only one mind.

You mentioned that Jesus is all powerful. He is not, only God is.

Jesus has one mind... and that mind is do what The Father commands him to do.

In case you haven’t read it before:

• A [true Son in Spirit] SON is ‘He who does the Will of the Father [in full]’

Don’t worry about the parts in square brackets, I added those to get a fuller definition for the pedantic readers out there.

Jesus is [A] SON of God [in the Flesh]. A Son of God in the Flesh ‘In Spirit’, means a HUMAN BEING who because of being born in Flesh is ADOPTED into the Sonship of God. It is a SPIRITUAL SONSHIP.

In Scriptures, ADAM is born in flesh as a Human Being. However, because he INITIALLY carried out all the commands of GOD:YHWH, he became ‘SON OF GOD’... (Luke 3:38).

Sadly, Adam fell to sin and was discharged from the Sonship of God.

Note that this spiritual Sonship DOES NOT INVOLVE PROCREATION... Procreation is Flesh-from-Flesh. In scriptures, Apostle Paul ADOPTEDthe runaway slave, Onesimus, as his Son... (Philemon 1). Paul did not PROCREATE Onesimus... Paul was actually in prison (in chains) and did not have a female partner (that we know of!). Onesimus was found by Paul afyer runnjng away from his master and so dutifully carried out everything that Paul commanded him concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul called him ‘Son’. Onesimus was a ‘perfect son in spirit’ to his Father’s, Paul.

Jesus Christ was ADOPTED as ‘SON’ to YHWH:

• ‘This day you have become to me a Son, and I to you a Father’ (paraphrased)

Anyone can see that this is an ADOPTION STATEMENT... Why would YHWH ‘adopt’ Jesus as ‘Son’ if Jesus was BORN as ‘Son’? Certainly Jesus did not perform any miracles until AFTER he was ANOINTED at the river Jordan... in fact, not even until he had been TESTED by Satan and resisted the perfect temptation to sin... thus showing he was a perfect SON (check out the three sample temptation and derive their significance!)

There are ‘SPIRIT’ SONS OF GOD - Holy Angels!!
Holy angels are not procreated Sons of YHWH. They are created Spirit beings. From their creation they cannot sin .... (they CAN SIN but know that doing so renders them ‘damaged products set for destruction’)

more....

 

[Muffled]

Jesus has two minds as we all do? Can you explain? Not really sure were your coming from... I think we have only one mind.

You mentioned that Jesus is all powerful. He is not, only God is.

I believe there is physical mind and spiritual mind.

I believe God is all powerful in Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus has one mind... and that mind is do what The Father commands him to do.

In case you haven’t read it before:

• A [true Son in Spirit] SON is ‘He who does the Will of the Father [in full]’

Don’t worry about the parts in square brackets, I added those to get a fuller definition for the pedantic readers out there.

Jesus is [A] SON of God [in the Flesh]. A Son of God in the Flesh ‘In Spirit’, means a HUMAN BEING who because of being born in Flesh is ADOPTED into the Sonship of God. It is a SPIRITUAL SONSHIP.

In Scriptures, ADAM is born in flesh as a Human Being. However, because he INITIALLY carried out all the commands of GOD:YHWH, he became ‘SON OF GOD’... (Luke 3:38).

Sadly, Adam fell to sin and was discharged from the Sonship of God.

Note that this spiritual Sonship DOES NOT INVOLVE PROCREATION... Procreation is Flesh-from-Flesh. In scriptures, Apostle Paul ADOPTEDthe runaway slave, Onesimus, as his Son... (Philemon 1). Paul did not PROCREATE Onesimus... Paul was actually in prison (in chains) and did not have a female partner (that we know of!). Onesimus was found by Paul afyer runnjng away from his master and so dutifully carried out everything that Paul commanded him concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul called him ‘Son’. Onesimus was a ‘perfect son in spirit’ to his Father’s, Paul.

Jesus Christ was ADOPTED as ‘SON’ to YHWH:

• ‘This day you have become to me a Son, and I to you a Father’ (paraphrased)

Anyone can see that this is an ADOPTION STATEMENT... Why would YHWH ‘adopt’ Jesus as ‘Son’ if Jesus was BORN as ‘Son’? Certainly Jesus did not perform any miracles until AFTER he was ANOINTED at the river Jordan... in fact, not even until he had been TESTED by Satan and resisted the perfect temptation to sin... thus showing he was a perfect SON (check out the three sample temptation and derive their significance!)

There are ‘SPIRIT’ SONS OF GOD - Holy Angels!!
Holy angels are not procreated Sons of YHWH. They are created Spirit beings. From their creation they cannot sin .... (they CAN SIN but know that doing so renders them ‘damaged products set for destruction’)

more....

The spiritual mind of Jesus is simply more powerful than the physical mind. The two minds are seen best in the Garden of Gethsemane; the physical mind does not want the body to suffer but the spiritual mind overrules the physical mind.

 

[Soapy]

The spiritual mind of Jesus is simply more powerful than the physical mind. The two minds are seen best in the Garden of Gethsemane; the physical mind does not want the body to suffer but the spiritual mind overrules the physical mind.

Apart from ‘The [SPIRIT] does not want the body to suffer], what you just said is Tosh!!! Total tosh!!!

The MIND is the SPIRIT... the SPIRIT is the MIND.

Jesus has ONE mind. With this one mind he can choose to do one of [a number] of things.

In the garden, he thought of the pain and anguish, the suffering, the ignominious death that awaited him ... it was overwhelming... he faultered.

Sweating blood is real phenomena. Extreme stress can cause this to happen. Blood vessels burst and seep through pours in the skin or out of the eye.

However, at this late stage, Jesus knew he was so close that ‘...another way...’ was not possible and would defeat everything he had accomplished in the last three and half years (as well as his pre-Anointed years).

Jesus’ ONE MIND changed from a ‘defeatist’ to a ‘conformist’ mindset...

Two ‘MINDSETS’ is what he had. Two ‘trains of thought’... one, to do the easy thing... and the other to do the Will of HIM who sent him...

You do remember Jonah, don’t you...?

Jonah feared they Ninevehians... and gave in to his defeatist mindset. But YHWH brought him back and Jonah changed his ONE MIND to a COMFORMIST mindset...

It’s not a NUMBER of MINDS... it’s ONE MIND with multiple TRAINS OF THOUGHT (‘Mindsets’)