So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?

[jeffrey]

s2a, I understand what you are saying, and noticeI said some. I guess my best example would be a person what is constantly being told that the life style he is living will send him to hell. (I disagree with telling anybody that. It's not their call, it's Gods' call) So instead of changing, they refuse to believe in Heaven or Hell. But I also still think it's easier not to believe then believe. Most Christians, somewhere in the back of their mind are wondering if the lives they are leading is good enough to get you to Heaven. I'm 51% Christian and 49% Truck Driver. Don't take much for the trucker to come out in me. The occasional cursing a stupid driver, or glancing over at the car next to me to find a naked lady smiling at me thinking "I really shouldn't be looking at this........I really need to watch the road.......WOW, BABY!.....Jeff, your married, QUIT!...." And finally look away but wondering if this will cost me?

 

[Melody]

I don't really think of myself as going to a physical place, but rather being in God's presence...which doesn't necessarily require a corporeal form or a physical place.

 

[s2a]

Hello again jgallandt,
You said:

>"s2a, I understand what you are saying, and noticeI said some. I guess my best example would be a person what is constantly being told that the life style he is living will send him to hell. (I disagree with telling anybody that. It's not their call, it's Gods' call) So instead of changing, they refuse to believe in Heaven or Hell. But I also still think it's easier not to believe then believe. Most Christians, somewhere in the back of their mind are wondering if the lives they are leading is good enough to get you to Heaven. I'm 51% Christian and 49% Truck Driver. Don't take much for the trucker to come out in me. The occasional cursing a stupid driver, or glancing over at the car next to me to find a naked lady smiling at me thinking "I really shouldn't be looking at this........I really need to watch the road.......WOW, BABY!.....Jeff, your married, QUIT!...." And finally look away but wondering if this will cost me?"<

It's non sequitur as far as I'm concerned (regarding "belief", or "lifestyle"), but for the record:
My only arrest was for a traffic violation (expired vehicle tags) nearly 20 years ago.
I don't cheat on my taxes, or my wife (never have in 16 years of marriage, or 32 years of paying taxes).
I haven't stolen anything since I was six years old (a chocolate bar - which my mother made me return, with tearful apology).
My lies are confined to "little white lies". ("Honey, do these pants make my butt look too big?"; "Um , no dear.")
I'm not gay, nor "bi-curious". (Never have been).
I swear like a drunken Marine when properly motivated, and sometimes without any motivation whatsoever.

In essence, your "confession" amounts to "it's harder to be 'good' than 'bad'", and generally speaking, you'll get no disagreement from me. Sure, at some point, we'd all like to throttle the idiot in our way, or smack the numbskull for saying/doing something utterly stupid, but...our more civilized nature takes hold, and we refrain from acting upon our baser instincts.

Just the same, good qualities and rational behavior are not the exclusive domain of Christians, nor are they (Christians) often the best exemplars of such. And yet, Christians will repeatedly proclaim "I'm not perfect, just forgiven (and going to Heaven!)". Unbelievers must satisfy themselves with, "I'm not perfect, just accountable/responsible for my own actions." No deity to praise, no demon to fault.

If you believe that the Christian rationale is more personally challenging than that of an unbeliever, I will not quibble with your estimation. It is, after all, your choice.

[I note that you (still) have yet to proffer any Scriptural support/detail for what your Heaven actually provides believers (as per my initial post), just for the record. ;-)]

 

[s2a]

Hello Melody,

You said:

>"I don't really think of myself as going to a physical place, but rather being in God's presence...which doesn't necessarily require a corporeal form or a physical place."<

Hmmm, OK.

Is that a stated Christian perspective supported by Biblical Scripture (as you profess yourself as "believer", without sectarian/religious affiliation/adherence), or a personalized one derived from alternate/unique beliefs?

I ask because yours seems to be an equivocated response ["...doesn't necessarily require..."], which is typically beyond mainstream, literalist, or "conservative Christian" claims of absolute certitude beyond any doubt.

 

[michel]

The presense of God. Hell of course, is the absense of God.

That, of course is a wonderful answer, NetDoc; but wouldn't you say that that applies as much while we are alive?

 

[Mister Emu]

Would you apply the same lack of skepticism and inquiry to virtually any other promise of "Trust me, you'll love it."?

Depends on the person issueing the statement.

As to your compasrisons, they do not represent the situation accurately, there is quite a difference between a salesman, and the Lord.

Your Scriptural support is negligible.

You sure?

Here I will quote you

Live forever. Check. No suffering forever. Check. No evil. Check. Constant and eternal bliss. Check. Always happy. Check.

I will trust that your scriptural references are correct.

Sounds like everything will be good

Yet as far as I can see there is no reference to the specifics of what we will be doing. Thus not being sure is the only scriptural stance I can take.

Wait, we have a place prepared, sounds like it is all planned out.

 

[Scott1]

Well said Mr E!

 

[kevmicsmi]

Similarly, simply stating "I don't know about 'A', but it's got to be better than 'B'" is an argument from ignorance abetted by an appeal to force/adverse consequence (ie., "I'm not sure about Heaven, but it's better than pain and suffering in Hell", or "Obey God...or suffer in Hell").

Special pleading, false choices, and appeals to (especially unseen and unknowable) adverse consequence are not especially compelling or persuasive argument in support of a Christian Heaven...especially amongst heretical/skeptical "unbelievers".[/QUOTE]
I did not think you asked what is the reason to beleive in heaven, I thought you asked what makes it so great. "The lesser of two evils" choice is not an ignorant choice in all cases. Assuming there are only two choices, and according to the Bible, which is what we are discussing, there are only two choices! President Bush was not the originator of "you are either for us or against us"...

If the house you were suposed to receive....sight unseen.....Was being offered to you by someonewho had nothing to gain, either way, would you trust them more? How about if they "sacrificed" their own money to purchase this house for you, would you have any reason to doubt their motives?

 

[s2a]

Hello Mister Emu,

When I said:
>>"Would you apply the same lack of skepticism and inquiry to virtually any other promise of "Trust me, you'll love it."?"<<

You replied:

>"Depends on the person issueing the statement."<

C'mon. That's pretty much a cop-out (and you know it). We're not talking about minor issues of trust, like tasting a new ice cream with your eyes closed (even then, you're likely to ask for "clues" about the ingredients or flavor before you partake). The "dependent" person (within our context) is asking you to (willfully and wholeheartedly) engage in an active and on-going, life-altering, transformation that will essentially change how you live, and how you perceive the world that surrounds you (not to mention...the acceptance of a realm in the hereafter).

>"As to your compasrisons, they do not represent the situation accurately, there is quite a difference between a salesman, and the Lord."<

Not my doing, nor my problem to remedy. The God of the Bible sent Jesus as His prophet/redeemer, but Jesus (post-execution) ascended to rejoin God, leaving the task of evangelism to those that choose to believe and "share" His "Truth".

Indeed, God/Jesus are NOT the salesmen - they're the foremen/boss(es). It's the remaining faithful adherents that are tasked with the "selling".

See - Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15.

If Christian adherents (and the Bible upon which they predicate their faith and convictions) are NOT the "salesmen" of God's revealed Word, then who is? Is it your contention that Jesus Himself makes regular personal housecalls upon the unsaved, urging them to repent and seek salvation? Or does He rely (as instruments of His Will and Command) upon mere mortal righteous adherents to knock on doors, hand out flyers, buy TV/radio air time, etc., to evangelize, proselytise, and testify?

[Note: This is not intended as an assail upon the inherently flawed human nature/aspects of the anointed/appointed "messengers", but rather the lacking/wanting aspects of the "message" itself].

If Christians (and their Bible) *are* the salesmen as initially suggested/inferred (with their textual tool as support), then I find the previously provided allegory most apt indeed. (You are welcome to again dismiss out-of-hand the drawn parallel, or you may indulge illustrative contextual rationale that demonstrates how/why the alluded comparison is flawed/misrepresentative).

Perhaps you could provide a more "accurate" representation to ponder.

Keeping matters within the proper context of a specified/claimed Christian Heaven, I submit again:

>" If you were a salesperson, and tasked to sell these items/services to anyone; but were not permitted:
- to present (in person) the prospective buyer the item/service for sale;
- to provide details of what the item/service offers;
- to show a photo, picture, or detailed schematic;
- to illustrate/demonstrate how the item/service operates, or is of specific use to the buyer...

...you're simply left to go make the sale, and if/when a prospective client confronts you with specific questions for which you don't know/aren't permitted to lend answer, your practiced answer is, "My boss says you'll love it! So, trust me!"..."<

Again, as reminder, we're talking about the concept of a Biblically-defined *Heaven*, not a generalized acceptance of Christian dogma or faith.


I said:

>>"Your Scriptural support is negligible."<<

You inquired:

>"You sure?"<

Yep. Perhaps you would benefit from re-reading my initial post. The request for Scriptural support in rebuttal was not to confirm what I provided...but to amend/enhance/illustrate specific details upon the questions that I posed.

You candidly answered the bulk of the questions in saying, "I don't know" (regarding what one actually *does* in Heaven). I acknowledged your candor and accepted your response. You reinforced your candor in following reply:

>"Yet as far as I can see there is no reference to the specifics of what we will be doing. Thus not being sure is the only scriptural stance I can take."<

Fair enough by my standard. Spoken like a true skeptic. ;-)

I was hoping for any Scriptural support of specificity/detail of Biblical claims BEYOND what I had already outlined in quoted Chapter and Verse. Point in fact, you provided none, beyond illustrating/reinforcing what I provided beforehand.

>"I will trust that your scriptural references are correct."<

If Easton's Bible Dictionary is considered credible source and reference, then I presume they may be correct.

>"Sounds like everything will be good...

...Wait, we have a place prepared, sounds like it is all planned out."<

I could refer you to some questionable/disreputable/desperate travel agents that would LOVE to meet you and plan your next vacation destination.

"Trust me, you'll LOVE it!"

"Sign here please (please remit full payment prior to departure, if you don't mind)."

"Oh, did I mention? No refunds."

"OK. Good. Just sign here...your plans are made, and your destination is prepared. Bon voyage."

 

[s2a]

kevmicsmi said:

>"I did not think you asked what is the reason to beleive in heaven, I thought you asked what makes it so great."

That was (and remains) the initial question at hand, yes..

I note for the record that you provided no enhancement to illustrate *why* (or how) the Heaven of Christians is "great". You simply suggested that the "alternative" (damnation) can't be as "bad" as Heaven. As I illustrated, such proffered inference is unpersuasive, and nothing more than argument from adverse consequence

>""The lesser of two evils" choice is not an ignorant choice in all cases."<

Not an argument I offered.

I merely submitted that more than two choices are available, thus rendering your two divergent and unrelated statements as fallacious argument.

>"Assuming there are only two choices, and according to the Bible, which is what we are discussing, there are only two choices!"<

First, we are not discussing the Bible (in general, per se), but rather the biblical claims as they relate to a Christian Heaven. There are plenty of ancillary debates (amongst adherent Christians of various sects) as to how one attains ultimate ascension to Heaven (some argue by "works alone" - absent confession/redemption; others, that only the "elect" will see Heaven; others insist that both good works and redemption are requisite; but these aspects are not at issue within this thread).

Second, your premise "assumes" that...an unbeliever accepts the notion that the Bible is authoritative fact. Unbelievers...by nature and definition...do not.

You, as an adherent, *are* presented with only two choices. Skeptics, heretics, infidels, and unbelievers(et al), have *more* than two at their disposal to contemplate (Hence, from an unbelievers perspective, a Biblical false dilemma). Far from dogmatically imposed "ignorance" ("Heaven or Hell? Take your pick buddy."), unbelievers have many other options to choose from...not the least of which is that an "afterlife" is merely a mortal's conceptual construct borne of wishful thinking.

>"President Bush was not the originator of "you are either for us or against us"..."<

I made no such claim. I salute you for knocking down that inferred strawman.

It would be difficult for me to illustrate/produce any exemplified original thoughts attributable to GWB. Certainly none of especial substance or merit come to mind...


>"If the house you were suposed to receive....sight unseen.....Was being offered to you by someonewho had nothing to gain, either way, would you trust them more?"<

Honestly, no.

Quite frankly, the "offering" person could be an idiot (or worse), with absolutely no knowledge or conception of what might suit my needs, interests, or wants.

>"How about if they "sacrificed" their own money to purchase this house for you, would you have any reason to doubt their motives?"<

Yes, for the ascribed reason stated above.

Their "motives" ("doubtful" or not) are secondary at best, and moot as far as I'm concerned.

How often can it be recounted that the greatest harm is frequently perpetrated by those that "mean well", or choose to offer their selfless service (and uninvited "direction") for "my own good" (I've run out of fingers and toes to implement in counting)?

To earnestly and honestly answer your premised inquiries, I would reply that whether a domicile was offered freely, or at another's expense, I would STILL want (in fact, demand) details as to the location, surrounding conditions, and accommodations.

If someone offered me a "magic" 1974 Chevy Vega (sight-unseen) for FREE (at their expense), I would retain no interest whatsoever, nor would I accept their "generous" offer....not even from my parents (and that's rejecting a *known* quantity/quality, mind you). Nor would I accept a "free" ground-floor domicile in a two-story outhouse, no matter how well it was portrayed, or how insistent was the plea that taking such residence would be "for my own good".

Maybe, you would.

You mileage, as usual, may vary.

Now that I have indulged you pointed statements/inquiries twicefold, would you care to pointedly respond to the question at hand (or address any of the specified/qualified questions presented within)?

 

[greatcalgarian]

You will not know joy without first experiencing suffering. Hence eternity of joy or enternity of suffering has no meaning. We can only understand it, if we have joy at some time follow by suffering follow by joy....... and so on. So in the case of theists who manage to make it to the heaven, they have eternal joy, but in order to enjoy that joy, they have to know what suffering is like. Since they have to be able to know that, and hence we have the planned situation where all the atheists groaning in the eternity of hell fire will provide the answer. So once in a while, those in heaven are given a tour of hell to see what suffering is like, then back to heaven to enjoy the joy there.

Take for example, s2a enjoyed a drink of Vokha once in a while. If he is made to drink Vokha every day, every hour, then the enjoyment will slowly decrease with each additional glass of vokha, until finally there is no more joy in drinking. Some one else (Michel: Nature is heaven. Just go somewhere really quiet, where there are no roads, people, shops etc; sit down and let yourself soak up the atmosphere - That's heaven.)may enjoy the serenity of a quiet country side. Put him there for one week, he will tell you how nice it is, put him there for a year, then he will yearn to come back to have some city life again.

In the same way, during school days, we look forward to vacation. When nothing exciting happened during vacation, we look forward to going back to school.

Everything has to be relative:
Good - Bad
Hot - Cold
Black - White
etc

So it is not possible for those in heaven to be in eternal joy, if they do not once in a while experience some pain and suffering.

The above is of course based on current existence on earth experience

Spiritually, may be it is possible.

What I suspect the faith of believing in the existence of a heaven where you will have eternal happiness is just a form of escapism for men who has an unexplanable fear of death and has a strong desire to want more happiness where they could not find enough currently, or they are not satisfied with their current life. They are discontented with their current state of life, and hence hope to have a better life in the future. Therefore, the idea of how a heaven is to be like is different for different people. Although they may echo the general believe that to be with God is the eternal joy, deep inside, they may be yearning for something else which they will not even admit.

 

[s2a]

greatcalgarian said:

>"Take for example, s2a enjoyed a drink of Vokha once in a while. If he is made to drink Vokha every day, every hour, then the enjoyment will slowly decrease with each additional glass of vokha, until finally there is no more joy in drinking."<

Heretic.

Infidel!

Blasphemer!!!

Vodka?! Vodka!?

Why dost thou seek to deliver such foul offering to be lain at my footstool?

I, s2a, the god of wobbly step and potent potables, smite thee in your insolence. Thou wouldst dare to impugn a god with commie booze?

I smite thee again, impudent tripe, for spite's sake alone!

Crawl before me you vile worm, and beg of my mercy in your repentance, before I banish thee once and forever more to a bar stool of uneven feet at your nearest Olive Garden!

Now, vile and unworthy wanton usurper of the god's own finest nectars...repeat after me and redeem thyself:

Cognac...
Cognac...
Cognac...

Hey! Say it like you mean it, or you'll get what for!

;-)


"Always remember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me."
- Winston Churchill

 

[s2a]

Not to suggest that I am withering whilst waiting,,,but you *did* suggest that you would offer "differing" examples, as per your post:

[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=188769#post188769 ]

...wherein you said:

>"Well, I'm a Christian and your description of Heaven bears virtually no resemblance whatsoever to the Heaven I believe in. It couldn't possibly be much more different. I hardly know where to begin in pointing out the differences. Maybe tomorrow, after a good night's sleep."<

I note (not that I'm counting or anything) that you have offered up approximately 20 new posts since (may I assume you are well-rested at this point?).

I yet await your Scripturally-supported "differences".

After all, you chose to stick your foot in the door...;-)

nudge...poke...nudge...

 

[greatcalgarian]

greatcalgarian said:

>"Take for example, s2a enjoyed a drink of Vokha once in a while. If he is made to drink Vokha every day, every hour, then the enjoyment will slowly decrease with each additional glass of vokha, until finally there is no more joy in drinking."<

Heretic.

Infidel!

Blasphemer!!!

Vodka?! Vodka!?

Why dost thou seek to deliver such foul offering to be lain at my footstool?

I, s2a, the god of wobbly step and potent potables, smite thee in your insolence. Thou wouldst dare to impugn a god with commie booze?

I smite thee again, impudent tripe, for spite's sake alone!

Crawl before me you vile worm, and beg of my mercy in your repentance, before I banish thee once and forever more to a bar stool of uneven feet at your nearest Olive Garden!

Now, vile and unworthy wanton usurper of the god's own finest nectars...repeat after me and redeem thyself:

Cognac...
Cognac...
Cognac...

Hey! Say it like you mean it, or you'll get what for!

;-)


"Always remember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me."
- Winston Churchill

Didn't know you can get so excited just reading the word vokha
Guess if I have written Cognac, you will now be in heaven, and can tell all of us how heaven looks like:jiggy:

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, S2a.

This is part 1 of a 3-part post.

Okay, you’ve shamed me into responding to the post I promised to get back to you on three weeks ago. I told you in the PM I sent that I wanted to explain why I hadn’t answered sooner. You said it didn’t matter, but it does to me. So I’ll begin by saying that, as a Latter-day Saint, I believe the Bible to be the word of God. What I don’t believe is that it contains the fulness of God’s word. In other words, I don’t see it as being a complete record of everything God has ever revealed to mankind. Consequently, while I believe what the Bible has to say about Heaven. I also believe that He has given modern-day prophets further knowledge on the subject. Since your post seemed to argue that, based on what the Bible has to say on the subject, it sounds more like Hell than Heaven to you, I was hesitant to complicate the matter by throwing in a discussion of those doctrines which I believe to be true, but which the vast number of other Jews, Christians and Muslims would categorically reject.

The Bible uses the term “heaven” to mean different things, dependent upon it’s use in context. “Heaven and Earth” is meant to imply the whole universe. For Jews, the “heavens” either represent the sky, the stars, or the place where God lives. Spiritually speaking, “heaven” is the “place of the everlasting blessedness of the righteous; the abode of departed spirits”. In theory, “heaven” is the place where good Christians go to hang out for eternity. The unsaved must work as cashiers at K-Mart, or burn in hellfire and brimstone for lots and lots of trillions of years (with no cable).

For Mormons, Heaven represents the place where God lives. We don’t see Him as an invisible spirit which fills the universe. We see Him as a corporeal being who resides “in Heaven” – which is exactly where the Bible says He resides. We do agree with other Christians that Heaven is a “place of the everlasting blessedness of the righteous.” But we would see your reference to it as “the abode of departed spirits,” not as Heaven but as Paradise, which are two different places. Because I don’t want this post to be any longer than I know it’s going to be anyway, I’ll leave it at that for the time being. If you want to explore our beliefs on Heaven and Paradise further, just ask. We believe that the “unsaved” will spend eternity in Hell. However, the LDS concept of Heaven is far more expansive than the mainline Christian concept of Heaven is. According to LDS doctrine, even you (an atheist) will end up in Heaven!!!!

So what does the Bible say about heaven that makes it so cool (relatively and metaphorically speaking) and desirable?

[*Note - some text below compliments of Easton’s Bible Dictionary.]

Jesus called heaven “paradise” (Luke 23:43) - references to tropical islands were not alluded…

No, I don’t believe He did. He told the thief who hung on a cross next to Him that He would see him that day in “Paradise.” But, when Mary saw Him for the first time after He was resurrected on Easter morning, He specifically told her He hadn’t been to Heaven yet. The scriptures also explain that during the three days His body lay in the tomb, He visited (in spirit form) the Spirit World, where He taught the spirits of those who had died prior to His earthly ministry. He had previously told Peter that “the gates of Hell” would not prevail against the Church He was going to establish. To Peter and other first-century Jews, “the gates of Hell” would have meant nothing more than the entrance to “the abode of departed spirits.” Since the Bible makes no reference to the mainstream Christian notion that the Spirit World no longer exists, we believe that it does. We believe this place to be the place where the spirits of those who have died, even after Christ’s resurrection, go to await the resurrection. For the righteous, the Spirit World will be a place of peace and rest – Paradise. For the wicked, it will be a place of mental anguish and torment – a Prison. Since the gates of Hell were not to prevail against His Church, we believe that His gospel continues to be shared there, with the spirits of those who either did not know of Him during their lifetimes or, for various reasons, did not accept Him. In other words, Heaven and Hell come later.

…and His “Father’s House” (John 14:2), with no shame at the thought of still living with your Dad at 33 years old.

And in His Father’s house are “many mansions.” So presumably, we won’t all be living happily under one roof.

Peter said that heaven is an “eternal kingdom” (2 Peter 1:11) and “eternal inheritance” (1 Peter 1:4), while the book of Hebrews says that heaven is “a better country” with a “prepared city” (Hebrews 11:14,16). Nice descriptors all, but kinda vague, dont’cha think? We all wanna know what we get for being good, right? What’s the payoff? Details are few, but the blessed are said to "sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and to be "in Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22; Matthew 8:11); to "reign with Christ" (2 Timothy 2:12); and to enjoy "rest" (Hebrews 4:10,11).

In heaven the blessedness of the righteous consists in the possession of "life everlasting," "an eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17), an exemption from all sufferings for ever, a deliverance from all evils (2 Corinthians 5:1,2) and from the society of the wicked (2 Timothy 4:18), bliss without termination, the "fulness of joy" for ever (Luke 20:36; 1 Peter 1:4; 5:10; 1 John 3:2). The believer's heaven is not only a state of everlasting blessedness, but also a "place", a place "prepared" for them (John 14:2). Not bad I guess, especially if you toss in the flowing milk and honey, and streets paved with gold.

Yes, nice descriptors, but kind of vague. (But as I said before, we believe the Bible to be an excellent, albeit incomplete record. This is a perfect example of its ambiguity.)

So let’s see. Live forever. Check. No suffering forever. Check. No evil. Check. Constant and eternal bliss. Check. Always happy. Check.

So far, so good. I actually could live like that.

Guess that’s all believer’s need to know. As an unbeliever, I request enhancement and detail (that travel brochure), if you please.

Sounds fair enough. But you’re not going to buy into it anyway.

Foremost, what does one *do* forever? I’m sure Abraham’s bosom is nice and all, but a billion years of that would get a tad tiresome. Beyond being happy to worship and praise the Almighty for trillions of years without end, what kind of job is there to do? One would think that God had all the maintenance and upkeep of heaven handled. I assume there’s nothing to buy or sell in heaven; no need for schools (what else does an immortal need to learn?), no hospitals (no pain, illness, or injury), no firehouses (Hell might have an opening or two, I suppose), no police stations (no evil, right?); no department stores (who needs clothes, shoes, or sunglasses?). There’s certainly no mention of recreational activities of any kind (No football on weekends? Are there weekends?); no restaurants (milk and honey excepted, is there any need of even consuming food when you’re immortal?); no movie theaters; no churches; no cars; no government; and theoretically, no pets. Is the one occupation to be sitting around and shooting the breeze about how happy and joyous everyone is...forever?

And here’s where the LDS perspective of Heaven differs markedly from that of mainstream Christianity. First of all, we believe in the three distinct “Degrees of Glory,” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 (and still additional “gradations” within these three realms). Paul taught, “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.” When the Latter-day Saints speak of Heaven among themselves, it is generally the Celestial (or highest) degree of glory they are speaking of. This is what they desire: the fulness of salvation, Exaltation or Eternal Life in God’s presence. Without going into any kind of detail as to who’s going to end up receiving which degree of glory (which is not up to any of us to decide anyway), I’ll just comment on what we believe the Celestial Kingdom is going to be like.

More to come...

 

[Katzpur]

Part 2 of a 3-part post. (You asked for it!)


Yes, we will worship God. After all, we wouldn’t be there were it not by His grace. But we believe that those who attain the highest degree of Celestial Glory will be exalted to a godlike state themselves. Unlike other Christians (except for C.S. Lewis, who saw it pretty much as we do), we see our eternal progression as glorifying God, not as an insult to Him. He wants us to never, ever stop learning, growing and progressing. Learning something new every day for eternity doesn’t sound the slightest bit boring to me. We believe that “men are that they might have joy.” This is official LDS doctrine. If that means football, a good meal or a day on the beach, I don’t think He’s going to object. We will, after all, be immortal beings with glorified immortal bodies of flesh and bones. We ought to be able to enjoy every good thing to its fullest. There will be more do to by far than sitting on a cloud playing a harp (unless, that is, playing a harp is what brings you joy). Furthermore, there are going to be animals. I fully expect to see my pets there. (It wouldn’t be heaven without them.) Our doctrine is that animals have a spirit and will be resurrected right along side humans. You are right about a couple of things, though: There will be no hospitals, because there will be no pain or illness. There will be no police stations because there will be no evil. I, personally, could do very well without either pain or evil.

And what about the interpersonal things? Assuming a previous wife makes it to heaven along with your current wife, does everyone share the same house and makeup. What about your ex's hubby/boyfriend? If you ascend to heaven unmarried, are you allowed to date? Since procreation is no longer an issue, is sex allowed (at least the Muslims have that few dozen vestal virgins thing going for them)? Are cigars permitted? Is XO cognac flowing from some endless source (screw that milk and honey for my money)? Can I get french fries with that Big Mac now that I can’t get fat or die? Do ugly people stay ugly in heaven, or do they get a holy "extreme makeover" first? Do babies stay babies, endlessly crying (and doing you know what else), or do they get a “base age” of say, 25 to live out eternity?

Those who attain the Celestial Kingdom will be united with their spouse for all of eternity. Their children will still be their children (which is not to say that your married kids will be living with you or that you have to share a house with your mother-in-law). I wouldn’t venture a guess as to whether or not there will be sex, but I certainly wouldn’t say it’s out of the question. There won’t be babies, because we will all have reached physical and emotional maturity. Age, however, will essentially be a non-issue. We just know that our immortal bodies will no longer be subject to disease and decay. I kind of like the idea of a holy “extreme makeover,” though I’ve never thought about it in those terms. I think it would be safe to say that, yes, that’s what’s going to happen in the resurrection.

What about entertainment? Again...no movies. No TV. No Nintendo. No magazines. No newspapers (no news). No competitive sports. All winners. No losers.

Joy. Joy. Joy.

Maybe, maybe not. I rather think we haven’t even begun to conceive of the wonderful kinds of entertainment waiting for us.

No agony of defeat - ever (woo hoo!). How about art? Music? Are actors, painters, sculptors, songwriters, singers, musicians even necessary? What do you get to act, paint, sculpt, write lyrics, sing, or perform about besides the Great One Himself? Kinda tough crowd for Blues artists and country songwriters when everyone is eternally happy.

Where does one GO? Is there a nice beach? Any mountains to climb? How about a pleasant sunlit meadow at the end of a trail through dense woods? Maybe there’s a scenic overlook of Hell somewhere, where you can spit on the poor heretics that didn’t make it (naw, that would be evil, and there ain’t no evil in heaven). Perhaps a diety-provided museum of former Earthly Pains and Pleasures (“C’mon hon, today let’s go to the museum for the 75,895,452,756th time and joyously partake of the exhibits again!”).

There will absolutely be music and art, because there will be musicians and artists. The greatest music and art is yet to be created. The country songwriters will have to adapt, though. Thank God!


Of course there will be beaches, mountains, woods, etc. God created these things, and everything He has created will receive its paradisiacal glory. There will be wonders to explore that you haven’t even begun to conjure up in your brain. And for those God exalts, there will be wonders to create!

What is IN your house that is so kindly prepared for you? There’s almost certainly no need for a kitchen or dining room; or a bathroom (do immortal souls really need to shave, shower, or pee?); or a bedroom (surely immortals don’t need sleep or sex without procreation); or a den (no TV, no computer - you can always "Google" God, right?); or closets (who needs clothes, and even if you did, would they ever get dirty or sweaty?); or an attic/basement (what are you going to store - you have everything you already need?); no need of furniture (in a land without suffering, chairs with lumbar support are unnecessary); no lighting fixtures (Hey, it’s heaven...complete with eternal divine light!); no need of tables, rugs, bookshelves; no appliances needed; no central heat/ac; no stereo (no iPod?). Maybe the house comes with a nice porch to joyously sit and watch all the other eternally joyous passersby being their eternally joyous, happy, smiling selves.
“Howya doin'?”.
“I couldn’t be happier!”.
“I know! Me too!”.

I don’t expect it will be quite this mundane, but I do believe “life” will go on, in many respects, the same as it does now.

Almost done...

 

[Katzpur]

And at long last, Part 3 of a 3-part post:

So, believers get a one room, one floor doorless house to “live” in, in which there is really nothing to do. And maybe a porch. Who can top that?

Let me see if I get this heaven deal now.
I get eternal life in a place with no pain or sorrow.
I get to be happy all the time, for trillions of years, nonstop.

And you don’t like that?

I get a house with no purpose to live in forever.
Beyond constantly and for all eternity praising the Almighty for His generosity and compassion in providing these fabulous heavenly digs, my eternal existence serves no purpose.

Your purpose will be whatever you choose to make it. Whatever you accomplish will glorify both God and yourself, and the possibilities are absolutely limitness.

I don’t need a job.

But you’ll work for the joy of it, because of your pleasure in your accomplishments.

I don’t need to eat or sleep.

But you certainly may, if you wish.

I don’t need to strive for anything.
I don’t need to learn anything.
I don’t need to know anything.
I don’t need to solve anything.
I don’t need to aspire to anything.
I don’t need to create (or repair) anything.

On the contrary. You’ll need to strive, learn, know, solve, aspire to and create in order to become as God is. This is what He wants for you.

I don’t need to protect anyone, for there is no evil.
I don’t need to cheer or support anyone, for everyone is eternally filled with joy.
I don’t need to mend anyone, for all are impervious to pain, injury, or sorrow.

Trust me, you’ll get used to it. And you'll learn to love it!

I may get to spend eternity with my loved ones, but am I permitted to love them *more* than anyone else - and if so, what forms of expressed affection are OK with God (if you think going without sex for six months is an eternity - try a billion years on for size and see how it suits you)?

You will not only be permitted to love them, you will be expected to love them. Love is eternal. God’s ordinances sealing husbands and wives together are eternal.

Never again a dull moment in heaven. Joy, joy, joy. Never a need for the simple pleasures of tilling a garden, singing along to favorite Eagles song, watching a sunset over the sea, playing fetch with your dog, or preparing a special breakfast-in-bed for your spouse. No plumbing to fix, no shingles to replace, no lawn to mow. Joy, joy, joy.

No heroes. No villains.

Perfection forever.

FOREVER.

And then some.

And then lots!

Heaven as paradise? Sounds like Hell to me.

Yeah, if I envisioned Heaven to be like that, it would sound like Hell to me, too. Now, don’t go asking me where in the Bible we are taught all of the things I have said, because I’m not going to be able to answer you. As I said at the outset, the Bible contains God’s word – but it doesn’t contain all of God’s word. He has said much more to us than you can find within the pages of that one book. And He’s not finished talking yet.

Excuse me while I pour myself a nice hefty snifter-full of cognac, fire up a decent cigar, sit back in my comfy chair, and watch a TiVo’d Bill Maher on my wide-screen TV in rich Dolby Surround.

While I still can...

Enjoy. (And maybe I’ll see you in Heaven, sans the cigar, and definitely without the country music!)



Kathryn

 

[Snowbear]

Heaven (to me ) is not so much a "payoff" as it is a promise. I can never be "good enough" to earn my way to Heaven. Thankfully, He has forgiven all the bad stuff I did and do and will do. Even though I can never hope to be righteous, still He's preparing a place for me. I'm counting on it

 

[s2a]

Hello Katzpur,

Thank you for your considered reply.

I hope to offer you same within 24-72 hours.

s2a

 

[may]

ok here is JW take on it,by the way i really enjoyed reading your thread starter,it just shows that mankind was created for the earth .

The earth was chosen by God to be the natural habitat for man. The psalmist expresses it in these words: "As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, but the earth he has given to the sons of men." (Psalm 115:16) Nothing in the Holy Scriptures indicates that if Adam and Eve had remained faithful to God, they would have had eternal life somewhere other than upon the earth. In fact, was not "the tree of life" here on the earth, in the Paradise that the first human couple enjoyed before they fell into a course of disobedience to God? (Genesis 2:9; 3:22) Since there was no information from God to the contrary, his faithful servants outside the garden of Eden (from Adam’s God-fearing son Abel onward) would, of necessity, have associated a resurrection with the only home that they knew of for man—the earth.any way, to cut a long story short the bible tells us that only a limited amount of ones would be going to heaven with God ,and they are going there with a particular purpose in mind. and that purpose is in connection with Gods kingdom Goverment that will rule over the earth in rightousness ,in fact they are going up there to rule as kings and priest with Jesus christ ,Gods first born son.

"Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom...luke 12;32

but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years...rev 20;6. so the rest of us will be the other sheep that jesus spoke of inJohn 10;16

"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.....but guess what , we will live on the earth just like God wanted us to, but not an earth full of rebellion ,but an earth filled with the knowledge of Jehovah God

And all your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant. Isaiah 54;13 so you are right to think that man was made for the earth because he was .:clap