So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?

[michel]

Hi s2a,

Good to see you've still got a head of steam - I admire your perseverence; I was just wondering if you would allow me back onto your own personal forum - oh silly me! it's a thread on the forum I belong to - for a minute thenm I thought this was the 's2a forum':biglaugh:
So, You want the Christian's view of heaven, backed up by scripture ?

I can only hope it takes you only half as long to read this as it took me to find answers, and write:- (Even with internet help)

The Christian Idea of heaven.
Biblical references to, with notes.

Colosians
1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always
for you,
1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the
saints,

1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of
the truth of the gospel;
Note the mention of faith, love and hope (Colossians 1:4 since we heard of your faith in
Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints). These three words are also in
1 Corinthians 13:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; 5:8; Romans 5:1-5; Galatians 5:5,6; Ephesians 4:2-5;
Hebrews 6:10-12; 10:22-24; 1 Peter 1:3-8,21-22.

The "word of the truth of the gospel" thus includes the promise of heaven, as well as the
death and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:14). It also includes recognition of the
Creator and His great creation (Revelation 14:6,7).
Isaiah
33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of
oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from
hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread
shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far
off. The king is, of course, the Lord Jesus Christ when He returns in "power and great
glory" to assume "the throne of His father David," and the people of Israel, scattered in all
the nations of the world, will be gathered back to their ancient land, "from one end of heaven
to the other" (Matthew 24:30,31; Luke 1:32).


33:18 Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is
he that counted the towers?

33:19 Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst
perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

33:20 Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet
habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall
ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

33:21 But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein
shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save
us.

33:23 Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not
spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

33:24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be
forgiven their sins.
The society of heaven will be select. No one who studies Scripture can doubt that.

The only condition of Entrance to heaven will be that of holiness. The humblest sinner on earth will be an aristocrat there.

Isaiah
57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Now what could be plainer than that? No one that is not of a contrite and
humble spirit will dwell with God in His high and holy place.
If there is anything that ought to make heaven near to Christians, it is knowing that
God and all their loved ones will be there. What is it that makes life so attractive, and
beautiful?- The people we Love.

John
12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant
be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
That is, when Christ returns (1 Peter 1:7).
Now when a man believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he receives eternal life. A great many
people make a mistake right there; "He that believeth on the Son hath--h-a-t-h--hath eternal
life;" it does not say he shall have it when he comes to die; it is in the present tense; it
is mine now--if I believe. It is the gift of God, that is enough. You cannot bury the gift of
God; you cannot bury eternal life. All the grave-diggers in the world cannot dig a grave large
enough and deep enough to hold eternal life; all the coffin-makers in the world cannot make a
coffin large enough and strong enough to hold eternal life; it is mine; it is mine!
Matthew
8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit
down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Both Jewish and Gentile believers from all over the world will share with the fathers of God's
chosen people in the resurrection, the millennial kingdom and the eternal kingdom (Matthew
24:31).
Here we find that Abraham, who lived so many hundreds of years before Christ, had not lost
his identity, and Christ tells us that the time is coming when they shall come from the east
and west and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God. These men
had not lost their identity; they were known as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And if you will turn
to that wonderful scene that took place on the Mount of Transfiguration, you will find that
Moses, who had been gone from the earth 1,500 years, was there; Peter, James and John saw him
on the Mount of Transfiguration; they saw him as Moses; he had not lost his name. Christ says
of him that overcometh, "I will not blot your names out of the Lamb's Book of Life." We have
names in heaven; we are going to bear our names there, we will be known.
Corinthians
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
shall inherit the kingdom of God.
No drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God." Now let those mothers that have sons who are
just commencing a dissipated life, wake up; and rest not day nor night until their boys are
converted by the power of God's grace, because no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Many of these moderate drinkers will become drunkards; no man ever became a drunkard all at
once. How the devil blinds these moderate drinkers! I do not know of any sin more binding than
the sin of intemperance; the man is bound hand and foot before he knows it.
Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not
deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind,
But the unrighteous-the adulterers, the fornicators and thieves--these men may all inherit it
if they will only turn away from their sins. "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the
unrighteous man his thoughts;" but if the unrighteous man says: "I will not turn away from
sin; I will hold on to sin and have heaven," he is deceiving himself.
1 Corinthians
2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered
into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
The reference comes from Isaiah 64:4, but Paul has interpreted "waiteth for him" as "love him."

The glories of "the new heavens and the new earth" (Isaiah 66:22) are beyond human
imagination, for they are being "prepared" for us by Christ Himself (John 14:2,3).
If there is one word above another that will swing open the eternal gates, it is the name of
JESUS. Jesus Christ is the way to heaven.
Isaiah has given this promise of God to every one who is saved through faith: "Thine eyes
shall see the King in His beauty; they shall behold the land that is very far off." Some of us
may not be able to go around the world. We may not be able to see any of the foreign
countries; but every Christian in time will see heaven. This is our Promised Land. John Milton says of the saints who have gone already:
"They walk with God High in salvation, and the climes of bliss."
All the joys we are to know in heaven will come from the presence of God. This is the leading
thought in all that the Scripture has to say on the subject. What life on this earth is
without health, life in heaven would be without the presence of God. God's presence will be
the very light and life of the place. It is said that one translation of the words describing
the presence of God is "a happy making sight." It will be a sight like the return of a long-
lost boy to his mother, or the first glimpse of your home after you have been a long time
away.
The more we know God, the more we love Him. A great many of us would love God more if we only
became better acquainted with Him. While on earth it gives Christians great pleasure to think
of the perfection of Jesus Christ, but how will it be when we see Him as He is?
Finally, your Heavenly Father calls you home, where you will see the angels and saints clothed
with the beauty of Christ Himself, standing around His throne, and hearing the word that will
admit you into their society, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, enter thou into the
Joy of thy Lord."

 

[michel]

Pt2

John
16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of
mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All will be yours. Ah, how poor and mean do earthly pleasures seem by comparison.
There is joy in heaven, we are told, over the conversions that take place on earth
Luke
15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,
more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Think of it! By Just one sinner repenting, can cause 'Joy in Heaven'

The Christian life is the only happy one. Without it something is always wanting. When we are
young we have grand ideas, and wants. But What we really want or need is experience.

When we get old we have the experience, but then all the power to carry out our schemes is
gone. "Happy is that people whose God is the Lord." The only way to be happy is to be good.

The man who steals from necessity sins because he is afraid of being unhappy, but for the
moment he forgets all about how unhappy the sin is going to make him.
Bad as he is, man is the best and noblest thing on earth, and it is easy to understand how he fails to find true happiness in anything lower than himself. The only object better than ourselves is God, and He is all we can ever be satisfied with.

Honour and praise of other men means little. The human soul wants something more than that. Heaven is the only place to get it.

Every Christian dies twice. He first becomes spiritually dead to sin-that is the renewed soul. He then begins to feel the joy of heaven.Then comes physical death, which makes way
for the physical heaven. Of course the old sinful body has to be changed. We cannot take that
into heaven. It will be a glorified body that we will get at the resurrection, not a sinful
body. Our bodies will be transfigured like Christ's.

There will be no temptation in heaven. If there were no temptation in the world now, God could
not prove us. He wants to see if we are loyal. That is why He put the forbidden tree in
Paradise; that accounts for the presence of the Canaanite in the land of Israel. When we plant
a seed, after a time it disappears and brings forth a seed that looks much the same, but still
it is a different seed. So our bodies and the bodies of those we know and love will be raised
up, looking much the same--but still not all the same. Christ took the same body into heaven
that was crucified on the cross, unless He was transformed in the cloud after the disciples
lost sight of Him. There must have been some change in the appearance of Christ after His
resurrection, for Mary Magdalene, who was the first one who saw Him did not know Him, neither
did the disciples, who walked and talked with Him about Himself, and did not recognize Him
until He began to ask a blessing at supper. Even Peter did not know Him when He appeared on
the sea-shore. Thomas would not believe it was Christ until he saw the prints of the nails and
the wound in His side. But we shall all know Him in heaven.
John
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I
go to prepare a place for you.
The Father's "house" is where we shall dwell forever (Psalm 23:6). It is also "the household
of God" (Ephesians 2:19) and corresponds to the "holy city" (Revelation 21:2) which will be
placed on the new earth as our eternal home. Its dimensions are given (see note on Revelation
21:15), and it is amply large to provide many "mansions." This word is used only one other
time, in John 14:23, referring to the "abode" where the Father and the Son will dwell with the
believer.

Therefore, heaven is a "place," not merely a state of mind or some sort of fourth dimension. It is a physical place in God's eternal world.
1 Kings
8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel,
when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when
thou hearest, forgive
This idea that heaven is everywhere and nowhere is not according to Scripture. Heaven is God's
habitation, and when Christ came on earth He taught us to pray: "Our Father, which art in
heaven." This habitation is spoken of as "the city of eternal life."
Life is hard, and often sad, but there will be a time when God will call us where there will
be no Sadness, no pain.

There is no darkness there. "The Lamb is the light thereof." It needs no sun, it needs no
moon. The paradise of Eden was as nothing compared with this one. The tempter came into Eden
and triumphed, but in that city nothing that defileth shall ever enter. There will be no
tempter there. Think of a place where temptation cannot come. Think of a place where we shall
be free from sin.

We believe in something surrealistic, heaven will remain forever. It is God's Kingdom.

Isaiah
57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

When the patriarch Jacob gave his sons his blessing, he spoke of Sidon. In the splitting up of
Canaan among the tribes of Israel by Joshua, Tyre and Sidon seem to have fallen to the lot of
Asher, though the old inhabitants were never fully driven out. We read in :
Mark
3:7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from
Galilee followed him, and from Judaea
3:8 And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and
Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.
Acts
23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to
judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Paul had not even been formally charged with any offense, let alone tried and found guilty.
23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?

23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written,
Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
Paul had been away from Jerusalem for many years, and could not have known Ananias by sight
(Exodus 22:28).
In the above, we find We find that the Captain of the guards who was taking Paul prisoner to
appear before Cæsar at Rome, when the ship touched at Sidon let Paul go and visit some of his
friends there to refresh himself.
There are some who Worship a Queen of Heaven, whom they picture with the moon
beneath her feet. Even the Hebrews, when they saw "the moon walking in brightness," along the
clear skies of Palestine, impressed by its beauty, fell into the same idolatry.
Jeremiah says:
Jeremiah
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead
their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other
gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
In answer to the prophet's reproof we find them saying
Jeremiah
44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not
hearken unto thee.

44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn
incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done,
we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of
Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
How common it is--yet how tragic--for God's people to compromise with the paganism of the
world and then to try to justify it by reason of the worldly acceptance and prosperity which
such participation often yields. The long-range danger of compromise is that the professing
believer will also be involved in the ultimate sure judgment awaiting the ungodly. "Blessed is
the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...the way of the ungodly shall perish"
(Psalm 1:1,6).

44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink
offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the
famine.

44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto
her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our
men?

44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the
people which had given him that answer, saying,
44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye,
and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD
remember them, and came it not into his mind?

44:22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because
of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an
astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

44:23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have
not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his
testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.

 

[michel]

Pt 3

44:24 Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the
LORD, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt:

44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both
spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows
that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings
unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

44:26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt;
Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in
the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Ezekiel
26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will
cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
Tyre was the greatest city of the Phoenicians-

26:4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape
her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
Nebuchadnezzar, as here prophesied, did destroy the walls and towers of Tyre when he invaded
her during the period 585-572 B.C. However, many of her people escaped to an island near the
coast, where their city continued strong and prosperous for another 250 years.
Alexander the Great, in expanding his Greek empire, was finally able to reach and conquer the
island city of Tyre in 332 B.C., by building a causeway to it out of the ruins of the old
mainland city, literally "scraping the dust" from her, leaving it "like the top of a rock."

26:5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken
it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

The Hebrews in their writings tell us of three distinct heavens. The air--the atmosphere about
the earth--is one heaven; the firmament where the stars are is another, and above that is the
heaven of heavens, where God's throne is, and the mansions of the Lord are--those mansions of
light and peace which are the abode of the blessed, the homes of the Redeemer and the
redeemed.
Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the
earth also, with all that therein is.

This is the first of at least six references in the Bible to "the heaven of heavens." There is
an atmospheric heaven and a starry heaven, but the "heaven of heavens" is the heaven where
Christ after His resurrection "ascended up far above all heavens" (Ephesians 4:10). This
heaven is where God's throne is located.
We are assured by Christ Himself that our names will be written in heaven if we are only
His.
Luke
10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but
rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
The miraculous signs accompanying the seventy on this mission, as well as the apostles and
others in the early church, were a special and temporary privilege, given for a special
purpose (1 Corinthians 13:8), not to be compared at all to the far greater and everlasting
gift of salvation.
A little while before these words were uttered by the Savior, calling together seventy of His
disciples, sent them forth in couples to preach the gospel in the cities of Galilee and Judea.
There are people nowadays who have no faith in revivals. Yet the greatest revival the world
ever saw was during the five or six years that John the Baptist and Jesus were preaching,
followed by the preaching of the apostles and disciples after Christ left the earth. For years
the country was stirred from one and to the other. There were probably men then who stood out
against the revival. They might have called it "spasmodic," and refused to believe in it.
Perhaps they said, "It is a nine days' wonder and will pass away in a little while, and there
will be nothing left of it." No doubt men talked in those days just as they talk now. All the
way down from the time of Christ and His apostles there have been men who have opposed the
work of God, and some of them professing to be disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, all because
it has not been done in their way. When the Spirit of God comes, He works in His own way. We
must learn the lesson that we are not to mark out any channels for Him to work in, for He will
work in His own way when He comes.
Heaven, is the place of victory and triumph.

Books in heaven?
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children
of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a
nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that
shall be found written in the book. This is the "great tribulation," the last half of
Daniel's seventieth week, following the placement of the "abomination of desolation" in the
temple's holy place (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:24-27).

During this terrible "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7), the true Israelites will be
protected in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6,14), and prepared to receive Christ when He
returns at the end of the great tribulation (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25,26).
Ezekiel
26:6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know
that I am
the Chinese had in their courts two great books. When a man is tried and found innocent, they
write his name down in the book of life. If he is found guilty, they write his name down in
the book of death.
Revelation
13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the
book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
On the pre-creation plan of God, see John 17:5,24; Acts 15:18; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians
1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2;

 

[michel]

Pt 4

1 Peter 1
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and
another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those
things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The "dead" here are the
unsaved dead, their bodies having been raised in the second resurrection in order to stand
before God in judgment. Whether those believers who are still living in the millennial earth
at this time will also be raised--along with any believers who may have died during the
thousand years--is not stated, but this would be a reasonable assumption since they also would
have perished in the final holocaust if not before. In any case, their names would have been
"written in the book of life," so they would not be judged with the others "according to their
works."

See also Revelation
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
When the dead are judged according to their works, they must all be sent to hell, for "there
is none righteous, no, not one" and "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified
in his sight" (Romans 3:10,20). Since they have rejected or ignored God's infinite grace and
Christ's infinite love in dying for their sins, "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26,27). Even though God is "not willing that any should perish," His justice demands it when they intractably have refused throughout their lives to "come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) and to personal faith in Christ.

21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever
worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
There can be no true peace, there can be no true hope, there can be no true comfort, where there is uncertainty. I am not fit for God's service, I cannot go out and work for God, if I am, in doubt about my own salvation.
We thirst for knowledge; but what we want to understand is beyond us.
Not until we are like God can we comprehend the infinite. Even the imperfect glimpses of God
that we get by faith, only intensify our desire for more. For now, as Paul says in
1st Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The completed Scriptures are like a mirror which shows us as we are and encourages us to make
needed changes. In the ultimate sense, we shall know in full only when God's plan, as revealed
in Scripture, is complete (compare James 1:23-25).
Another want that we have is rest. We get tired of toiling. Yet there is no real rest on
earth. We find in
Hebrews
4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered
into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His. Let us labor,
therefore, to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
We can have no rest on Earth; when our work is finished, the Lord will call us home to enjoy
that rest. We cannot rest in this world, where God's Son has been crucified and cast out.
I think that a great many people are going to lose their reward just because they have come into the church with the idea that they are to rest there, as if the church was working for the reward, instead of each one building over against his own house, each one using all his influence toward the building up of Christ's kingdom.
Another want that we feel here is Love. Heaven is the only place where the conditions of love can be fulfilled. There love is essentially mutual. Everybody loves everybody else. In this world of wickedness and sin it seems impossible for people to be all on a perfect equality.
When we meet people who are bright and beautiful and good, we have no difficulty in loving them. All the people of heaven will be like that. There will be no fear of misplaced
confidences there. There we shall never be deceived by those we love. When a suspicion of doubt fastens upon any one who loves, their happiness from that moment is at an end. There will be no suspicion there.

Sources:- http://www.bibleteacher.org/heaven02.HTM +time + sweat of brow:biglaugh:


I apologise for the formatting; I prepared this on natepad, and then copy/pasted onto the forum; I could not afford to lose all this lot, by being timed out!

However, I now see that the formatting has been lost and sentences are messed up over a few lines. Apologies.
I could go on, but I hope this will keep you busy for a day or so.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello Katzpur,

Thank you for your considered reply.

I hope to offer you same within 24-72 hours.

s2a

Hi, s2a.

Well, don't put too much effort into it on my account. You see, I was more than willing to give you an in-depth explanation of what the Latter-day Saints believe Heaven will be like -- at least for those who attain the Celestial Kingdom. But since you don't even trust my sources, there is little point in us arguing the matter into the ground. And I won't be bothered to do so. For instance, I don't know what, if anything, the Koran has to say about Heaven. But if a Muslim were to explain to me what his religion taught Heaven to be like (basing his understanding on the Koran), it would make no sense at all for me to try to point out the errors in his logic. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Kathryn

 

[ch'ang]

To me if their is a heaven it would a slightly improved version of earth with some minor tweaks because to me its the imperfections that make things interesting to have perfection for eternity would just get soooooooo boring, everyday you would know that it would be a perfect day nothing would go wrong and the next day would be just as perfect. Because I am Taoist I believe in the interplay of yin and yang and heaven sounds like a severe imbalance. But even a tweaked earth would get boring if it was for eternity mostly because eternity is a long, long time, (this does not take into account erosion)think of this if you took a single piece of rock from the Himalayas and say the piece was about the size of your finger nail once a year until the entire mountain range was gone you would still be nowhere near eternity, or think of this if one grain of sand equals one year than all the sand one earth would add up to 0% of infinity since since any finite number when compared to infinity is so close to zero that it might as well be. So in conclusion I nor anyone else could stand anything for eternity no matter how cool it is.

 

[greatcalgarian]

After reading all the quotes from the bible explaining what Heaven is like, being some one who like to know both side of the story, how about some details on how bad is HELL? And where are all the bible passages discussing the horror of hell?

 

[greatcalgarian]

DenominationStance on HeavenStance on HellSouthern Baptists[size=-1]Viewed as a paradise with Christ and God for all eternity, often depicted as being filled with mansions and golden streets.[/size][size=-1]Dante's Inferno type hell, suffering for eternity.[/size]Christian Science[size=-1]Basically a state of mind.[/size][size=-1]Basically a state of mind.[/size]Lutheran[size=-1]Unending joy of being with God in Heaven.[/size][size=-1]Dante's Inferno type hell, suffering for Eternity. Some sects see hell as a separation from God. [/size]Eastern Orthodox[size=-1]Viewed as a paradise with Christ and God for all eternity.[/size][size=-1]Precise form of punishment not known.[/size]Oneness Pentecostal[size=-1]The imminent return of Christ, a pre-tribulation rapture, the millennial reign of Christ, the final judgment, and the new heaven and the new earth. In other words, heaven on earth after earth is cleansed.[/size][size=-1]Lake of fire, eternal fires, Dante's Inferno, suffering for eternity, etc.[/size]Roman Catholic[size=-1]Viewed as a paradise with Christ and God for all eternity.[/size][size=-1]Used to believe the level of torture in hell will be dealt in accordance with the seriousness of the individual's sin. Most individuals who are not destined to hell first suffer punishment in purgatory where they are "cleansed" and then admitted into heaven. On July 28th, 1999 the Pope decrees that hell is: "the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God." (i.e., separation)[/size]Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[size=-1]The highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom are reserved for Mormon couples that have been married in a Mormon temple. The couples can eventually become a God and Goddess; the husband will then be in control of an entire universe. Christians who are non-Mormons and have led exceptional lives will also spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom.[/size][size=-1]Hell exists but very few people will stay there very long. If you have not heard Christ's Gospel, you will exist in a spirit prison. This spirit prison is where you wait to hear the Gospel.[/size]Jehovah's Witness[size=-1]Heaven on earth after earth is cleansed. Only 144,000 people will be admitted into heaven. The rest will remain on the new earth.[/size][size=-1]Hell is the grave where one waits with hope for resurrection. Hell will be destroyed after the 1,000-year reign of Christ. True sinners cease to exist.[/size]Quakers[size=-1]Up to individual interpretation.[/size][size=-1]Up to individual interpretation.[/size]Church of Christ[size=-1]It is a realm of peace and love. Much of the Biblical description of heaven is metaphorical and humans do not now know its features.[/size][size=-1]Generally, a separation from God. (some sects vary)[/size]Disciple's of Christ[size=-1]Viewed as a paradise with God for all eternity.[/size][size=-1]Separation from God.[/size]Episcopal Churches[size=-1]Viewed as a spiritual state of being in the presence of God.[/size][size=-1]Hell is not eternal torment; rather, it's the final and irrevocable choice made by man that ends in total non-being.[/size]Methodist[size=-1]Differing opinions, some interpret heaven as symbolic, others believe heaven will be in the presence of God.[/size][size=-1]Differing opinions, some interpret hell as symbolic, others believe hell will be a separation from God.[/size]Presbyterian[size=-1]The most current statement I could find comes from a 1974 paper on universalism adopted by the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in the United States. It mentions judgment and promises hope, acknowledging that the ideas of heaven & hell seem to be "in paradox." This statement concedes how God works redemption and judgment still remains a "mystery" to man.[/size][size=-1](See heaven)[/size]Seventh-Day Adventist[size=-1]Heaven will be on Earth with Jesus after the thousand-year reign. Seventh-Day Adventists believe Jesus is coming and coming soon! This is clearly predicted by the prophesied signs apparent in scripture.[/size][size=-1]There will be a thousand-year reign of Jesus with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At earth's close, Jesus with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected and judged with Satan and his angels. Finally, fire from God will consume them all and cleanse the earth.[/size]United Church of Christ[size=-1]Does not teach that heaven and hell are actual places in the universe. Adherents make up their own minds about the nature of heaven and hell through scriptural precedent, though most believe that heaven and hell are states of mind.[/size][size=-1](See heaven)[/size]
http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=192

This is a summary of how heaven and hell looks like. Pick your choice and find comfort in whichever one is best for you.

 

[s2a]

Hello Katzpur,

A couple of days ago, I committed to obliging you with a reply to your detailed 3-part post. Afterwhich, you said:

"Well, don't put too much effort into it on my account. You see, I was more than willing to give you an in-depth explanation of what the Latter-day Saints believe Heaven will be like -- at least for those who attain the Celestial Kingdom."

Actually, an "in-depth" (or applicably referenced) exposition/explanation of why you might think your Heaven is "great" (or desirable) was the extended invitation presented by the thread topic. ;-)

"But since you don't even trust my sources, there is little point in us arguing the matter into the ground. And I won't be bothered to do so."

It's not so much a distrust of your source(s) it/themselves, as it is a non-acceptance of the claims they (and their adherent faithful) presume to present as inerrant fact and truth.

[Just the same, all participation within these forums is voluntary, and the choice of which topics to engage and lend commentary are left to the sole discretion of the individual. If your proffered "explanation" is your definitive and final "word" on the subject, that's fine with me. ;-) Know that I appreciate your sincere efforts in contribution to the topic.]

"For instance, I don't know what, if anything, the Koran has to say about Heaven. But if a Muslim were to explain to me what his religion taught Heaven to be like (basing his understanding on the Koran), it would make no sense at all for me to try to point out the errors in his logic. Do you see what I'm getting at?"

I see what you're getting at, but you've (somewhat) misconstrued where the premised conclusion itself was leading. I have no interest (as inferred within the originating post) in debunking or disproving any claims offered by the Bible (or sectarian addendums) regarding what a Christian Heaven is, or what Scripture promises as afterlife reward to the faithful and repentantly delivered.

To recall from the originating post, I laid out numerous Scriptural references to Chapter & Verse that delineated the differences in meaning and usage of the word "heaven"; and outlined certain verses offering as example/detail what a believer should expect to find/do once attaining Heaven. I then proceeded (based upon provided references, and other C&V not specifically mentioned) to pose what I would consider to be rather ordinary questions - being neither unreasonable nor outrageous in my estimation - worthy of further enhancement in detail and specificity.

To reiterate some "givens".
Forever is a long time.
Life is short (especially when compared to...forever).
Believers claim that Heaven is a "great" (spare no expression of penultimate/hyperbolic fabulousness as substitute) reward (from God) bestowed upon His pious faithful and obediently subservient followers/adherents.
An eternity spent in conscious blissful existence (as claimed by believers, and promised in the Bible) is preferable to an (eventual) eternal unconscious non-existence (as accepted by some unbelievers), or Hell (see Bible; God's punishment for unbelievers) . (This last "given" is debatable perhaps, but more from a philosophical, existential perspective - than one of "logic" and "proofs").

My post was invitation for adherents to support the - "why"- of - "what" - they believe (and claim for the "benefit" of others) regarding Heaven; to lend some referenced detail as support of that "why" (beyond personalized speculation and individualized revelation); and perhaps answer some of the ordinary and mundane questions regarding an immortal/eternal existence.

As previously suggested, I would lend more circumspect investigation of a potential rest home (re: accomodations; food/beverage; recreation; social interactions/community; and visiting hours) for a cherished loved one with few remaining years...than what I seen believers evince or provide regarding the claims of divine reward in Heaven...yet they would ask the very same questions that I would ask if it was their loved one preparing for a final stay (destination) at a rest home.

So...when you said, "Well, I'm a Christian and your description of Heaven bears virtually no resemblance whatsoever to the Heaven I believe in. It couldn't possibly be much more different. I hardly know where to begin in pointing out the differences..." - let's see what those differences entail, and what support you offer in illustration.

"...I’ll begin by saying that, as a Latter-day Saint, I believe the Bible to be the word of God. What I don’t believe is that it contains the fulness of God’s word. In other words, I don’t see it as being a complete record of everything God has ever revealed to mankind. Consequently, while I believe what the Bible has to say about Heaven. I also believe that He has given modern-day prophets further knowledge on the subject. Since your post seemed to argue that, based on what the Bible has to say on the subject, it sounds more like Hell than Heaven to you, I was hesitant to complicate the matter by throwing in a discussion of those doctrines which I believe to be true, but which the vast number of other Jews, Christians and Muslims would categorically reject."

Know that your self-professed status as an LDS make you no less, and no more a pious Christian in my view - nor does it render your faith's claims any more or any less credibly compelling.

"For Mormons, Heaven represents the place where God lives. We don’t see Him as an invisible spirit which fills the universe. We see Him as a corporeal being who resides “in Heaven” – which is exactly where the Bible says He resides."

OK.

"We do agree with other Christians that Heaven is a “place of the everlasting blessedness of the righteous.” But we would see your reference to it as “the abode of departed spirits,” not as Heaven but as Paradise, which are two different places."

OK

"Because I don’t want this post to be any longer than I know it’s going to be anyway, I’ll leave it at that for the time being. If you want to explore our beliefs on Heaven and Paradise further, just ask."

Seems pretty brief to me. ;-)

I have "explored" LDS beliefs over many years with LDS "door-knockers", whom are always cordially invited inside for discussion.

"We believe that the “unsaved” will spend eternity in Hell. However, the LDS concept of Heaven is far more expansive than the mainline Christian concept of Heaven is. According to LDS doctrine, even you (an atheist) will end up in Heaven!!!!

"

OK. Let's see if that's a desirable outcome after a brief mortal existence...

 

[s2a]

"...when Mary saw Him [Jesus] for the first time after He was resurrected on Easter morning, He specifically told her He hadn’t been to Heaven yet. The scriptures also explain that during the three days His body lay in the tomb, He visited (in spirit form) the Spirit World...since the Bible makes no reference to the mainstream Christian notion that the Spirit World no longer exists, we believe that it does. We believe this place to be the place where the spirits of those who have died, even after Christ’s resurrection, go to await the resurrection."

As you are probably aware, such a notion is not unique to LDS adherents.

"For the righteous, the Spirit World will be a place of peace and rest – Paradise. For the wicked, it will be a place of mental anguish and torment – a Prison. Since the gates of Hell were not to prevail against His Church, we believe that His gospel continues to be shared there, with the spirits of those who either did not know of Him during their lifetimes or, for various reasons, did not accept Him. In other words, Heaven and Hell come later."

OK.

I referenced:

"…and His “Father’s House” (John 14:2), with no shame at the thought of still living with your Dad at 33 years old."

You said:

"And in His Father’s house are “many mansions.” So presumably, we won’t all be living happily under one roof."

Ummm..."presumably"? I was hoping for some referenced specificity. Is this eternal "rest home'" a bunch of nice communes, or do we each get our own mansion?


You noted my provided references to - 2 Peter 1:11; 1 Peter 1:4; Hebrews 11:14-16; Luke 16:22; Matthew 8:11; 2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrews 4:10-11; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:18; Luke 20:36; 1 Peter 1:4; 5:10; 1 John 3:2; and John 14:2...after which, you acknowledged my point in saying:

"Yes, nice descriptors, but kind of vague. (But as I said before, we believe the Bible to be an excellent, albeit incomplete record. This is a perfect example of its ambiguity.)"

I note your lack of alternate/extended example as commensurately vague and ambiguous, not to mention unspecific and "incomplete".

I commented:

"So let’s see. Live forever. Check. No suffering forever. Check. No evil. Check. Constant and eternal bliss. Check. Always happy. Check."

You replied:

"So far, so good. I actually could live like that."

I entreated:

"Guess that’s all believer’s need to know. As an unbeliever, I request enhancement and detail (that travel brochure), if you please."

You merely offered:

"Sounds fair enough. But you’re not going to buy into it anyway."

Perhaps not an entirely unfair assessment, but your "answer" is unresponsive and evasive.

Why would I conclude so?

If I were your travel agent/broker, and you said, "I'm sorry, but I need more that a 'Trust Me, You'll Love It' pledge/guarantee", and I merely offered a rebuttal of, "That's fair enough, but...Well...I could give you more details, but they're so incredible and unbelievable you couldn't/wouldn't accept them anyway...".

If I, as your travel agent, could only offer that as a selling point, would you book a trip with me? Would you stake everything you owned; abandon every preconceived notion; change your very way of living, and behavior, and core beliefs upon such rationale? Could you? Would you really? Just for a trip to a promised "Paradise"?

Next, you generously offered an LDS perspective upon 1 Corinthians 15:40-42, and a brief dissertation upon the "Degrees of Glory" as espoused by LDS adherents.

Thank you, but I'm aware of the doctrinal/doxological distinctions that LDS adherents espouse.

You stated (absent reference):

"Yes, we will worship God. After all, we wouldn’t be there were it not by His grace. But we believe that those who attain the highest degree of Celestial Glory will be exalted to a godlike state themselves."

Such concepts of afterlife immortality are not limited to Christian sectarian beliefs/claims.

"Unlike other Christians (except for C.S. Lewis, who saw it pretty much as we do), we see our eternal progression as glorifying God, not as an insult to Him. He wants us to never, ever stop learning, growing and progressing. Learning something new every day for eternity doesn’t sound the slightest bit boring to me. We believe that “men are that they might have joy.” This is official LDS doctrine."

I'm all about "learning something new everyday". Really I am. But what of:
Matt. 10:26 - "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."

If everything is to be disclosed, and all hidden things are made known, what is there to learn? What question will God not provide answer to, if asked? What knowledge will be needed, if immortality - free of effort, or profit, or pain - provides an eternity of "been there, done that", or "I knew that already"?

Honestly, and this is really important - what does one need to know in an immortal existence? In aquiring knowledge, there is always benefit - either to oneself; on/of behalf of another; or to better attain/acheive (or sometimes avoid/prevent) some personal/familial/communal goal. Of what benefit is knowledge to an immortal in Heaven? You can't "die". You can't "suffer" a mistake from a lack of knowledge; you can't "profit", or share some enhanced perspective of "existence" from further (aquired) knowledge; there is no consequence of/from willful ignorance, or stupidity. How does being "informed" (and in/of "what") lend to a "better" spate of unending immortality?

"If that means football, a good meal or a day on the beach, I don’t think He’s going to object. We will, after all, be immortal beings with glorified immortal bodies of flesh and bones. We ought to be able to enjoy every good thing to its fullest. There will be more do to by far than sitting on a cloud playing a harp (unless, that is, playing a harp is what brings you joy)."

Your opinion (absent referenced C&V) is pleasant to ponder, but hardly extraordinary (or "great") considering the options that we mere mortals have readily available to choose from in this knowable existence.

"Furthermore, there are going to be animals. I fully expect to see my pets there. (It wouldn’t be heaven without them.) Our doctrine is that animals have a spirit and will be resurrected right along side humans."

I'll be candid. If I were allowed to construct my own version of "Heaven", my (past and present) non-human companions would be there too. There are few humans I have encountered that can surpass or better represent the emotional/temporal qualities of "loyalty"; "patience"; "selflessness"; "devotion"; "courage"; or, "unconditional love". You are invited to quote and share the textual "scripture" of the LDS beliefs that support the concept of immortal non-human "souls".

"You are right about a couple of things, though: There will be no hospitals, because there will be no pain or illness. There will be no police stations because there will be no evil. I, personally, could do very well without either pain or evil."

I confess that I am neither doctor nor policeman by experience or profession - but if I were, I would wonder what such sacrifices in a mortal existence would amount to, or be translatable to, a veritable immortal, "forever" existence. I mean, why bother? It's "evil" that motivates the policeman to dedicate and sacrifice him or herself to the defense of others; it's pain and illness (and the alleviation/eradication thereof) that motivates doctors/nurses/medical aides to learn/pursue/perfect their craft. In a life spent in the service of prevention and cure of the pains and anguish of others, what is such an immortal spirit to do with a lifetimes' worth of skill and dedication?

"Those who attain the Celestial Kingdom will be united with their spouse for all of eternity."

Again, what of unmarried "ex's"? What of those (widow/widower) that remarry with love in their hearts? Is this an unreasonable question to pose? What does Scripture offer as answer? Just who sleeps in whose bed?

"Their children will still be their children (which is not to say that your married kids will be living with you or that you have to share a house with your mother-in-law). I wouldn’t venture a guess as to whether or not there will be sex, but I certainly wouldn’t say it’s out of the question."

You wouldn't need to "venture a guess" at all, if Scripture offered you an answer to such a basic question.

"There won’t be babies, because we will all have reached physical and emotional maturity. Age, however, will essentially be a non-issue. We just know that our immortal bodies will no longer be subject to disease and decay. I kind of like the idea of a holy “extreme makeover,” though I’ve never thought about it in those terms. I think it would be safe to say that, yes, that’s what’s going to happen in the resurrection."

So, no babies. Is that conjecture, or Scripturally supportable "truth"? As a guy who might prefer an "adults only" condo in the hereafter, that's an important question to resolve.

Beyond speculation, could you reference any Scripture (LDS or otherwise) that suggests that a "Holy Makeover" is due for all "saved" souls? Will bald men regain their hair? Will anyone actually need hair?

 

[michel]

Hi s2a;

I'm waiting with bated breath for the reply to my post...........

 

[s2a]

I asked, somewhat rhetorically:

"What about entertainment? Again...no movies. No TV. No Nintendo. No magazines. No newspapers (no news). No competitive sports. All winners. No losers.

You ambiguously replied:

"Maybe, maybe not. I rather think we haven’t even begun to conceive of the wonderful kinds of entertainment waiting for us."

Nice sentiment. Notably unspecific.

When I questioned whether or not artists and musicians would have a place/purpose in Heaven, you said:

"There will absolutely be music and art, because there will be musicians and artists. The greatest music and art is yet to be created. The country songwriters will have to adapt, though. Thank God!"

I note, once more, that you provide no Scriptural reference/support of such a claim/conclusion (sentiments regarding country music notwithstanding ;-)).

"Of course there will be beaches, mountains, woods, etc. God created these things, and everything He has created will receive its paradisiacal glory. There will be wonders to explore that you haven’t even begun to conjure up in your brain. And for those God exalts, there will be wonders to create!"

Exploration is the result of human curiosity to discover the unknown. If all things are known, wherein does the curiosity originate? If all experiences are knowable by anyone (as immortals), then what's the point of venturing anywhere? Would anyone be denied reaching the highest summit in Heaven? What dangers/obstacles would be overcome to attain such a goal? What perils? What consequences? What "meaning" would any goal attest to, if such a goal were attainable by anyone?

If mortal man, once transformed into the immortal, is imbued with the power to "create" wonders of his own fashion, from whence and what textual foundation is he to presume such as promised, veritable fact?

[I can conjure up some pretty compelling wonders to yet explore, like...the entire cosmos. Infinity is a pretty difficult concept to expand upon, and poses no limits as to what my brain, or anyone else's might potentially conceive today or tomorrow]

After I outlined in my original post that an immortal's house would have no definable purpose, you offered:

"I don’t expect it will be quite this mundane, but I do believe “life” will go on, in many respects, the same as it does now."

More supposition. No support.

When I suggested:

"So, believers get a one room, one floor doorless house to “live” in, in which there is really nothing to do. And maybe a porch. Who can top that?

Let me see if I get this heaven deal now.
I get eternal life in a place with no pain or sorrow.
I get to be happy all the time, for trillions of years, nonstop."

You rhetorically asked:

"And you don’t like that?"

If I did (or found such to be satisfactory), I wouldn't be posing the question at hand...

You quoted my further elaboration:

"I get a house with no purpose to live in forever.
Beyond constantly and for all eternity praising the Almighty for His generosity and compassion in providing these fabulous heavenly digs, my eternal existence serves no purpose."

You offered, absent any textual/scriptural reference:

"Your purpose will be whatever you choose to make it. Whatever you accomplish will glorify both God and yourself, and the possibilities are absolutely limitness."

You see...and the funny thing is...my "purpose" is what I choose it to be right now. No need of a god belief...no requisite belief in/of an afterlife.

I noted:

"I don’t need a job."

You offered:

"But you’ll work for the joy of it, because of your pleasure in your accomplishments."

I work to suit my own sensibilities in attaining/achieving a goal; earning a paycheck; and, coincidentally...because it gratifies my sense of accomplishment, and...um..."purpose".

I said:

"I don’t need to eat or sleep."

You allowed:

"But you certainly may, if you wish."

Kind of you to grant...predicated upon what Scripture that suggests such?

I more or less enumerated:

"I don’t need to strive for anything.
I don’t need to learn anything.
I don’t need to know anything.
I don’t need to solve anything.
I don’t need to aspire to anything.
I don’t need to create (or repair) anything."

You reply was:

"On the contrary. You’ll need to strive, learn, know, solve, aspire to and create in order to become as God is. This is what He wants for you."

I find your support of such claims...lacking.

I went on:

"I don’t need to protect anyone, for there is no evil.
I don’t need to cheer or support anyone, for everyone is eternally filled with joy.
I don’t need to mend anyone, for all are impervious to pain, injury, or sorrow."

You said:

"Trust me, you’ll get used to it. And you'll learn to love it!"

Oh wait! Are you that travel agent of which I speak that requests trust with neither detail nor enhancement to offer as support?

I asked if:

"I may get to spend eternity with my loved ones, but am I permitted to love them *more* than anyone else - and if so, what forms of expressed affection are OK with God (if you think going without sex for six months is an eternity - try a billion years on for size and see how it suits you)?"

You could only offer, unspecifically:

"You will not only be permitted to love them, you will be expected to love them. Love is eternal. God’s ordinances sealing husbands and wives together are eternal."

So...I can't love my daughter more than my wife. Or...my first wife, from my second wife...from my third? What about the love of their respective former/future husbands and subsequent offspring? Which wife should I love most, if I am widowed to all three? If I pass, and my surviving wife should remarry out of love more than once, whom shall claim her for all eternity? Can I, or should I, have sex with all of my former wives? Should I expect her former/subsequent husbands to exercise equal "ordinanced" eternal love? For...trillions of years...?

I simplified my initial conclusion in offering:

"Never again a dull moment in heaven. Joy, joy, joy. Never a need for the simple pleasures of tilling a garden, singing along to favorite Eagles song, watching a sunset over the sea, playing fetch with your dog, or preparing a special breakfast-in-bed for your spouse. No plumbing to fix, no shingles to replace, no lawn to mow. Joy, joy, joy.

No heroes. No villains.

Perfection forever.

FOREVER.

And then some."

To which, you offered:

"And then lots!"

Of which, I note again, you offered no textually supported details whatsoever.

My concluding sentiment was:

"Heaven as paradise? Sounds like Hell to me."

Yours was:

"Yeah, if I envisioned Heaven to be like that, it would sound like Hell to me, too. Now, don’t go asking me where in the Bible we are taught all of the things I have said, because I’m not going to be able to answer you."

Ya know, you could have said so and conceded as much at the outset and confirmed...with your honest concession...my initial supposition and premised conclusion, that the Christian Heaven ain't really all that "great" (beyond personal supposition/speculation and hopeful inference), or even specify (with referenced textural support) the underlying details of "why you believe" of "what you believe" is (or should be accepted as) demonstable fact, or some universally applicable "truth".

"As I said at the outset, the Bible contains God’s word – but it doesn’t contain all of God’s word. He has said much more to us than you can find within the pages of that one book. And He’s not finished talking yet."

As you represent yourself as an LDS adherent, I acknowledge your faith's notion that your God may yet have a few "sequels" in the works...and that He may (ultimately) provide a bit more "detail" than what you are capable of offering as defense/testament of what "Heaven" is, or may yet afford His adherent believers...

...

 

[s2a]

I acknowledge your sincere efforts in illustrating the differences of faith and "understanding" that you retain/affirm amongst LDS adherents and "mainstream" Christians, and that your belief allows even heretical infidels like myself to be ultimately "saved" and see Heaven, but...

...you did not or could not provide any specifics (predicated upon referenced Scriptural/religiously textural support) that address/enhance any of the most basic and ordinary questions one might presume to ask of any unseen/unspecific/vague "promised land".

You offered (albeit, in earnest) presumption and guess of what you thought Heaven "might" or "should" be (or how such presumptions differ from "mainstream Christianity"), or of whom such promise might include, or "provide for"...but you could not/would not offer (even) any dogmatic justification for why you believe what you believe as truth; much less any explanatory detailed rationale why your accepted version of Heaven is preferable to my own understanding of basic concepts of an immortal conscious existence.

The Heaven brochure remains markedly sparse in detail, and the travel agent's pitch is still the same...

 

[s2a]

Hello Michel,

You said:

Good to see you've still got a head of steam - I admire your perseverence; I was just wondering if you would allow me back onto your own personal forum - oh silly me! it's a thread on the forum I belong to - for a minute thenm I thought this was the 's2a forum'"

As to my "perseverance", all I can say is..."You have no idea". ;-)

To summarize Sun Tzu's perspective - never underestimate your enemies, never overestimate your skills, and never allow yourself to grow complacent.

If it pleases you, I defer to your status as "Super Mod", for I am but a humble monetary supporter of this forum, and infrequent "contributor" at best. How could I ever presume to intrude upon your own "turf"? As a "supermod", I readily acknowledge and accede that this is your sandbox, and we all participate/contribute according to your rules and established etiquettes. Is that contrite enough that I may continue to offer reply to a thread of my own instigation and invitation?

You asked:

"So, You want the Christian's view of heaven, backed up by scripture ?"

Well, yes...but in so doing extending the extant hope that such illustration and support would reinforce the notion that a Christian Heaven is not only desirable, but preferable to other prospectively "legitamate" alternatives...

I can only hope it takes you only half as long to read this as it took me to find answers, and write:- (Even with internet help)

You first offered (by unnecessarily cutting and pasting the entire C&V, when simply enumerating such would have sufficed):

You reference Colossians 1:3-5, asking that I acknowledge the passages references to "faith, love and hope" (and of subsequent ancillary notice in 1 Corinthians 13:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; 5:8; Romans 5:1-5; Galatians 5:5,6; Ephesians 4:2-5; Hebrews 6:10-12; 10:22-24; 1 Peter 1:3-8,21-22).

OK, noted.

You then offer (as testament) "word of the truth of the gospel"...as abetted by 1 Corinthians 15:14; Revelation 14:6,7; Isaiah 33:15-24 (abetted by Matthew 24:30,31; Luke 1:32). You offered, in exegetical summation that:

"The society of heaven will be select. No one who studies Scripture can doubt that."

I am a long time student of Scripture, yet I doubt. Of what account do you lend to that?

"The only condition of Entrance to heaven will be that of holiness. The humblest sinner on earth will be an aristocrat there."

And so, the concept of equality amongst men is suggested. Hardly unique, unprecedented, or profound. Mere mortals have embraced such concepts within this realm...*yawn*. Next?

You quote Isaiah 57:15, conclude, and then rhetorically inquire:

""Now what could be plainer than that? No one that is not of a contrite and
humble spirit will dwell with God in His high and holy place. If there is anything that ought to make heaven near to Christians, it is knowing that God and all their loved ones will be there. What is it that makes life so attractive, and beautiful?- The people we Love."

But...the people we Love will only see Heaven if they are contrite and of humble spirit regarding God (according to Isaiah 57:15). If they are not...?
Is not life beautiful and attractive whilst the people we love exist within this evident mortal realm? Does Scripture guarantee that those we love in life, will see Heaven, and share it with us? Does an eternity of their potential absence suggest an infinite amount of happiness, bliss, and righteous satisfaction/glee? Could you be eternally happy knowing that your unbelieving daughter was writhing in perpetual agony and suffering in the depths of a God-promised Hell as suitable eternal punishment for her short-term (human life-span) peccadilloes?

You proceed to quote:

John 12:26, and 1 Peter 1:7
- which testify that believers will receive eternal life. OK. Excuse me if I say that I've heard the claim before...

You offered Matthew 8:11; Matthew 24:31, but somewhat surreptitiously...

Ya know...if you're gonna offer up someone else's exegetical evaluations/sermons (especially when directly quoted...err, borrowed), you should at least lend credit where credit is due at the outset (and suitably presented with quotation marks), and not leave others to presume that such exposition is original or of your own craft.
[See: http://www.biblebelievers.com/moody_sermons/m6.html ]

I wonder why I doubted that such "validations" were of your own inspiration...hmmm. Just call me a skeptic...

More proffered "insights"...

Corinthians 6:9-10 - extols how "bad" people will not see Heaven, but that even such "bad" people, if properly 'redeemed", will see God in Heaven. Again, you'll excuse me if I've heard that claim before...and find it especially lacking in terms of mortal justice. With the possible exception of the notable "sin" of being a "drunkard" (and within moderation, at that) - I am not, nor could righteously claim the title of being [a]: "covetous", "reviler", "extortioner", "thief", "adulterer", "idolater", or "fornicator" (except - often enough- with my own wife of 15 years).

You referenced:
"1 Corinthians 2:9, Isaiah 64:4...which alluded to Isaiah 66:22, thus "reinforcing" John 14:2 -3 (which I provided in my premised initial post).

Forgive me if I remain underwhelmed by an acknowledged claim that I proffered at the outset.

At this point (albeit, by means of the words of another) all you have managed is a testament of faith itself...of who (upon adequate qualification) will see God and Heaven in a believers promised afterlife. As yet, specificity awaits...even when quoting Milton's ruminations upon God...

Offered is John 16:15-17, that suggests that earthly pleasures seem poor (by comparison), and that joy is celebrated by one sinner's repentance (after the end of the world, one assumes other "joys" are yet to be realized).

You'll understand if I don't bother to rebut the cut and paste sermonizing of D.L. Moody that you have courteously placed for my consideration in reply...for what he offers (and sermonizes upon) is validation of faith and belief itself (which can be read in toto at the provided link above), but provides no specific illumination, specificity, or enhancement upon the question at hand.

...

 

[s2a]

(cont. pour Michel)

And yet, efforts at specificity are exemplified, in which you offered:

"John 14:2 - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. The Father's "house" is where we shall dwell forever (Psalm 23:6). It is also "the household of God" (Ephesians 2:19) and corresponds to the "holy city" (Revelation 21:2) which will be placed on the new earth as our eternal home. Its dimensions are given (see note on Revelation 21:15), and it is amply large to provide many "mansions." This word is used only one other time, in John 14:23, referring to the "abode" where the Father and the Son will dwell with the believer."

"Therefore, heaven is a "place," not merely a state of mind or some sort of fourth dimension. It is a physical place in God's eternal world."

Whoa. Before we continue, let's evaluate the claims of Revelation 21:15, as it refers specifically to the abode of Heaven on Earth.

Let's ruminate upon that, shall we?
Rev. 21:15-27 (NIV) says:
"The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length (That is, about 1,400 miles), and as wide and high as it is long. He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits (That is, about 200 feet) thick (or high), by man's measurement, which the angel was using. The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst, (The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain). The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass. I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."
[Hyphenated footnotes compliments of the NIV translation]

While I'm sure that all faithful adherents will lend watchful accounting of which gemstones were "faithfully" applied...

FWIW:
1400 miles x 1400 miles = 1,960,000 square miles.
The area of the Earth in square miles is 197 million.
The "city of Heaven" is therefore (approximately). 1% (ONE percent) of the entire Earth's surface (or about three times the land area of Alaska). Not especially impressive when considering the amount of space afforded by, um..."space".

Yawning, for you have yet to even get started, you continue with...
"1 Kings 8:30...and so forth..."

Which unfortunately and predictably, lends no detail or enhancement whatsoever to the question "What's so great about a Christian Heaven?".

Oh my. And next, I am left to deal with the further implications/extrications of the faith of "true believers", as suggested in Isaiah 57:15; Mark 3:7-8; then Acts 23:3-5; Exodus 22:28; then, the utterly inapplicable aspects of Jeremiah 7:18, and Jeremiah 44:16-27 (how do such passages, even remotely, apply to the question at hand - beyond simple testaments of faith itself? Do you even know?).

Oddly enough (though not to your credit), you offer:

Ezekiel 26:3-5 (which again, is utter non-sequiter to the question).

You offer up non-enlightened "enlightenment" from Deuteronomy 10:14, and Ephesians 4:10, neither of which is in question as far as my initial premised conclusion is concerned.

Honestly...truly...did you even read the C&V you so simply provided absent any applicable context? If not, you could have merely provided a simple hypertext link to the page you wished me to read, evaluate, and lend rebuttal (if even applicable) towards.


As I trundle forth through the continuing pontifical morass of validating statements/interpretations of faith (Luke 10:20; 1 Corinthians 13:8), and on, and on, and on...

...you have offered nothing beyond pious self-validations of faith itself. You finally offer/acknowledge your entirely "borrowed" and unoriginal commentary (um, "defense") with hypertext link of:

Sources:- http://www.bibleteacher.org/heaven02.HTM +time + sweat off brow

Maybe I'm just a tad more adept at utilizing Google than you, but I found the proffered (and pointedly unspecific) "commentary" within 30 seconds of "effort", minus any sweat of brow.

You need not apologize for issues of formatting, for they are moot within the context of what you have proffered as "answer" to the premised question at hand. Even amidst and besides (by sheer coincidence and happenstance alone) you could have hoped for some relevance to the very nature of the question, you have in fact (even as a matter of sheer luck) presented no Scriptural support to address even the most straightforward questions posed.

Unquestionably, you have provided an impassioned sermon attesting to the benefits of faith (and consequential results of lack thereof), but even such facile and willful efforts of wishful thinking won't lend you any substantiation in providing any specificity as to what one does in Heaven forever; what Heaven looks like; or regarding about 95% of any of the specified questions initially presented in my originating thread post.

Perhaps, if you expended the effort to thoroughly read my initial post, then read your cut and pasted "rebuttal", you'd see why your "response" is lacking on virtually any and every level of objective discernment of applicable relevance.

From unfurrowed brow of imperceptible perspiration,
s2a

;-)

 

[DeepShadow]

Perhaps, if you expended the effort to thoroughly read my initial post, then read your cut and pasted "rebuttal", you'd see why your "response" is lacking on virtually any and every level of objective discernment of applicable relevance.

Perhaps the problem is with the original question itself.

After all, scripture is mostly concerned with matters of faith; it's not a science textbook, as has been demonstrated elsewhere on these forums. Scripture mentions heaven having an end of death and sin because those were spiritual concerns, and also because they were different than life here in mortality.

Was John supposed to say, "heaven will have music, and dancing, and sex, and all the things you enjoy here on earth, as well as immortality?" Not to me. If you were telling me about China, I wouldn't expect or want to hear much about how people there are the same. I'd want to hear about the differences, because that's how I would construct a picture in my mind--by contrasts.

Thus, scripture might mention so little about life in heaven because it won't be any different from here.

Where does it say that we won't have TV, or music, or sex? Do you have any scriptural evidence that it's not, "All this and immortality, too?"

 

[DeepShadow]

Matt. 10:26 - "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."

If everything is to be disclosed, and all hidden things are made known, what is there to learn? What question will God not provide answer to, if asked? What knowledge will be needed, if immortality - free of effort, or profit, or pain - provides an eternity of "been there, done that", or "I knew that already"?

You're assuming that all things are known at once, but that's not how we learn. We all learn at different paces, line upon line, precept upon precept. That process will continue in heaven.

Isaiah 28:10--For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

D&C 130
18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

 

[DeepShadow]

Matt. 10:26 - "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."

If everything is to be disclosed, and all hidden things are made known, what is there to learn? What question will God not provide answer to, if asked? What knowledge will be needed, if immortality - free of effort, or profit, or pain - provides an eternity of "been there, done that", or "I knew that already"?

Also note that this scripture only refers to things that are "concealed" or "hidden." It says nothing about things that are in plain view, but have never been studied--at least by you. You'll have plenty to learn and do.

 

[DeepShadow]

What about entertainment? Again...no movies. No TV. No Nintendo. No magazines. No newspapers (no news). No competitive sports. All winners. No losers.

You got C&V to back these up?

 

[michel]

s2a,


I may be a supermod, but on this forum I am as any other member - like you, I am but a humble monetary supporter of this forum, but one who has offered to help moderate the forum. I do not have my own soap-box, and this is not my 'Turf' - it is a forum for debating and sharing Religion.


Quote"No takers yet? Nary one advocate/adherent of a Christian Heaven to offer their own Scripturaly supported and detailed travel brochure of what Heaven offers the eternally after-living?" - That was your point to which I responded i.e 'Scripturaly supported'...I gave you the Scripure, and you rebuff it.......Make up your mind........


part quote................2Ya know...if you're gonna offer up someone else's exegetical evaluations/sermons (especially when directly quoted...err, borrowed), you should at least lend credit where credit is due at the outset (and suitably presented with quotation marks), and not leave others to presume that such exposition is original or of your own craft.
[See: http://www.biblebelievers.com/moody_sermons/m6.html ]

I wonder why I doubted that such "validations" were of your own inspiration...hmmm. Just call me a skeptic..."...............................

More seriously, you accuse me of Plagiarism:- " you should at least lend credit where credit is due at the outset (and suitably presented with quotation marks), and not leave others to presume that such exposition is original or of your own craft. "

See Post#44 Quote .........
"Sources:- http://www.bibleteacher.org/heaven02.HTM".........


I suggest that the next time you request Scriptural 'evidence' as a 'travel brochure', that when someone has gone to the trouble to produce it, that you do not 'trash' it.

I am truly disappointed in your tactics which are to say the least, below the belt.

I think you owe me a suitable apology, and I look forward to your retraction of your accusation of plagiarism.