So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?

[Scott1]

Just read post #1. That should cover it...

Okey dokey.

So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?

God

The rest of your post is jibbersh to me... I guess we just view heaven differently.

Is your "I don't care" position acceptable to your Creator as He has charged you otherwise?

Gonna have to ask Him....

My bad. I wasn't aware that only Catholic clergy were qualified to evangelize God's Word.

No need to apologize.... I never mentioned anything about the "qualifications" for evangelization... you brought up the dogma of the Catholic Church, not I... and I was only attempting to make it clear that I'm not Catholic dogma... I'm Scott

I will therefore infer that testimonial witness from Catholic laypersons is useless and meaningless, as such adherents of the Church only "speak for themselves".

Infer what you will.... I think it's rather ignorant to assume that anyone who "speaks for themselves" is somehow useless and meaningless... whom, exactly, do you speak for?

What if I'm happy now? What future need or want of a Christian Heaven is there for someone like myself?

Need? Well, I'm happy you're happy... but I believe.. that is I have faith in.... that your current state of happiness pales in comparison to the happiness of heaven.
Want? Only you can decide what you want.

I'm unsure/ignorant as to what specifics or Scriptural "truths" you are willing to reference as Biblical validation/answer to the question at hand..

Biblical validation? What makes you think I need that?

.but rest assured that facile testimonials of "I don't know, but I believe what I believe is true" are not answer, nor especially interesting to contemplate from an unbeliver's perspective (absent abject and empirical fact).

You were looking for abject and empirical facts for heaven on an internet message board? Good luck.:areyoucra

 

[s2a]

Hello Michel,

You said:

Maybe my post was a bit 'reactive' rather than proactive - I'll grant you that.

Okay. But once more, I would submit that what you offered (as rebuttal) was a sermon of/upon faith - regardless of underlying unsubstantiation/motivations.

Not many people get under my skin; for the sake of the record, I have nothing against you - apart from your vociferous belief that you know better than others, and that you tend to use your verbosity as a weapon.

I like to think that reason is my weapon, and logic is my foundation as such. I am admittedly verbose, but no moreso than any other unknown (or unmet) raconteur of repartee resolved to reasonable discourse amongst relative strangers. If I present aggravating or unnerving presence to both your understanding and personal sensibilities, then you might well question whether it is my presence, or your lack of surety, that troubles you the most.

I will stop posting on this thread, because I have nothing to offer - besides, I have come to the conclusion that you would never accept any answer.

I acknowledge your lack of substantial offering in rebuttal, but your conclusion is self-serving at best, and unresponsive in result. Again, you could have just said: "I don't know", or..."I'm not sure"; and that would have been acceptable to me. I simply followed your tangential (and empty) replies...to my own admitteed discredit.

Good luck, and I hope ypu continue to enjoy your being here on the forum. No hard feelings on my side; I hope you can reciprocate the 'tendered hand of peace'.

Accepted as extended. It is my continued interest to discuss ideas (and faith-based claims), not to impugn motives or individual personalities.

If you were within range of a local saloon, I would offer you beverage of your choice, and friendly dialogue as reason to have another. ;-)

 

[michel]

Hello Michel,

You said:


Okay. But once more, I would submit that what you offered (as rebuttal) was a sermon of/upon faith - regardless of underlying unsubstantiation/motivations.


I like to think that reason is my weapon, and logic is my foundation as such. I am admittedly verbose, but no moreso than any other unknown (or unmet) raconteur of repartee resolved to reasonable discourse amongst relative strangers. If I present aggravating or unnerving presence to both your understanding and personal sensibilities, then you might well question whether it is my presence, or your lack of surety, that troubles you the most.

I acknowledge your lack of substantial offering in rebuttal, but your conclusion is self-serving at best, and unresponsive in result. Again, you could have just said: "I don't know", or..."I'm not sure"; and that would have been acceptable to me. I simply followed your tangential (and empty) replies...to my own admitteed discredit.

Accepted as extended. It is my continued interest to discuss ideas (and faith-based claims), not to impugn motives or individual personalities.

If you were within range of a local saloon, I would offer you beverage of your choice, and friendly dialogue as reason to have another. ;-)

I would accept! - I might even buy you one back - but I wouldn't have an argument with you!

 

[s2a]

Hello Scott1,

After careful and thoughtful consideration of this thread's originating post and premised question, in answer...you offered:

God

The rest of your post is jibbersh to me... I guess we just view heaven differently.

Well...smite me with the stick of surprise! You view Heaven differently from me (*smack*)...yet you bother to provide neither detail nor specific (Scripturally referenced) answer to the question...

*Whack*

I am smote once again with surprise!

When I asked of you:
>>"Is your "I don't care" position acceptable to your Creator as He has charged you otherwise? "<<

Gonna have to ask Him....

I don't really need to...I have the Bible to quote Chapter and Verse from as support. Is is necessary that I do so to illustrate if "asking" God whether or not His Commandments are to be taken seriously by believers is true?

No need to apologize.... I never mentioned anything about the "qualifications" for evangelization... you brought up the dogma of the Catholic Church, not I... and I was only attempting to make it clear that I'm not Catholic dogma... I'm Scott

Well Scott...if you wish exemption from obedience/subservience to Catholic cathechisms as a self-professed Roman Catholic...just say so...and I will defer accordingly. I only accept what you (adherently) profess yourself to be...

I said:
>>"I will therefore infer that testimonial witness from Catholic laypersons is useless and meaningless, as such adherents of the Church only "speak for themselves"."<<

You replied:

Infer what you will.... I think it's rather ignorant to assume that anyone who "speaks for themselves" is somehow useless and meaningless... whom, exactly, do you speak for?

Willful mischaracterization. It's not the person (that you unartfully infer that I suggest) that is rendered "useless and meaningless"...it's their proffered testimony of "God's Word" and "truth". Your personal testimony and witness are certainly yours, and yours alone to offer and share amongst others - believers and unbelievers alike - but, as you suggest, yours is not necessarily in line with that of the Catholic Church. It's of no consequence to me whether you adhere to Catholic dogma in principle or practice...but if you don't...then what defines you as a Roman Catholic?

In empty response, you said:

Need? Well, I'm happy you're happy... but I believe.. that is I have faith in.... that your current state of happiness pales in comparison to the happiness of heaven.
Want? Only you can decide what you want.

I have offered premised argument with concluding question. Your answer amounts to..."my faith exceeds your understanding" of what the Bible says (or doesn't say) regarding the specifics of what Heaven is...or is not.

The question at hand doesn't question your faith, convictions, or your belief. The question only presents the premised notion that the claimed Biblical Christian Heaven is vague at best, and downright dreary in contemplation as "reward".

I acknowledge your piety, faith and belief in such a promised "trust me, you'll love it" proposition. But know that your efforts in trying to "sell" such to an unbeliever are what remains wanting...

I'm unsure/ignorant as to what specifics or Scriptural "truths" you are willing to reference as Biblical validation/answer to the question at hand..
Biblical validation? What makes you think I need that?

Oh, I don't know. Do you predicate your faith in some other spiritual/textual work? Recall, the topic at hand refers to the Christian (Biblical) claims of Heaven as recounted in the Bible. Is there some other outside source (of equal validiity) of equal claim that I am unaware of that you could provide?

You continued quoting me:
>>"...but rest assured that facile testimonials of "I don't know, but I believe what I believe is true" are not answer, nor especially interesting to contemplate from an unbeliver's perspective (absent abject and empirical fact)."<<

Wheeupon which, you attempted rhetorical question is saying:

You were looking for abject and empirical facts for heaven on an internet message board? Good luck.

Thank you for you bestowment of wishes of future fortunate circumstance for myself. I am an optomistic skeptic myself. ;-)

I note your inability (or unwillingness) to provide such (either facts or Scriptural reference), regardless of medium or community forum. Don't blame the medium for your shortcomings or incapacities...you chose to participate here just like the rest of us...

 

[Mike182]

I note your inability (or unwillingness) to provide such (either facts or Scriptural reference), regardless of medium or community forum. Don't blame the medium for your shortcomings or incapacities...you chose to participate here just like the rest of us...

scott, unable? hmmmmmmmmm, i thought that man could do almost anything

seriously though, what is it your looking for s2a? and answer to "what is heaven like?"

well, scholars, theists, theologians, rabbi's, school kids through out the ages have all debated that one, and guess what, they still dont actually know

biblically speaking, im not sure what the bible says abotu heaven its self, its content, its substance etc, but i know that if we sould understand it with a human mind then it would not be heaven

heaven by its very nature is incomprehendible to the human mind, we can only know things through experience, and because there is no such experience to the liking of heaven here on earth, we cannot know what it is until we get there

you speak of travel brouchures, why? whats your idea of heaven? your first post is liking heaven to a one room appartment and a long long time spent doing naff all, thats a very human concept of eternity, and therefor (in connection to the above paragraph) very far from what heaven actually is

just my thoughts

for biblical wordings on heaven ask scott or someone else who looks like they could reference the entire bible in half an hour, but i doubt they can give you what you seem to be seeking - that is to say, a detailed floor map of where the toilets are in relation to the swimming pool

god bless
C_P

 

[Scott1]

I am smote once again with surprise!

Well aren't you a pleasant fellow!:shout

I don't really need to...I have the Bible to quote Chapter and Verse from as support.

My faith does not rely on the need to quote Chapter and Verse from Scripture... that you feel the need to look for "answers" in the Bible is not my problem.

I only accept what you (adherently) profess yourself to be...

How about you stick to being an atheist and let me worry about myself, deal?

Willful mischaracterization.

You poor thing.

It's of no consequence to me whether you adhere to Catholic dogma in principle or practice...but if you don't...then what defines you as a Roman Catholic?

Again... how about we deal with the topic at hand... your obsession with what and what does not "define" me is growing old quickly.

The question only presents the premised notion that the claimed Biblical Christian Heaven is vague at best, and downright dreary in contemplation as "reward".

The problem is that your original question asked "what’s so great about a Christian heaven?" and I have attempted to answer that, as a Christian.... but you seem to want an answer from a Bible-only Christian, which I am not.... I believed in heaven before I ever picked up a Bible... but I guess that does not fit into your plan for this thread...

But know that your efforts in trying to "sell" such to an unbeliever are what remains wanting...

I'm not trying to "sell" you anything.... YOU are the atheist who came to a RELIGIOUS forum to discuss religion.... methinks one of us is trying to "sell" something... and it aint me.

Recall, the topic at hand refers to the Christian (Biblical) claims of Heaven as recounted in the Bible. Is there some other outside source (of equal validiity) of equal claim that I am unaware of that you could provide?

Once again... Christian does not always mean Biblical.... I came to faith without reading the Bible and I have faith in the Church which came BEFORE the Bible.... I view the Sacred Traditions of the Church of equal validity to Scripture.

Don't blame the medium for your shortcomings or incapacities...you chose to participate here just like the rest of us...

Your invective sarcasm betrays your true nature.... I'll be praying for ya.

 

[greatcalgarian]

What is the objective of s2a posting regarding Heaven in this thread?

Let me try, but I may be wrong. I believe Cal has gone from the first phrase of the bible (In the beginning) to the last sentence (be with you all, AMEN), and could not find a clear answer to the definition of Heaven, after argueing with Hobbes for months and years.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/candh.htm
(I hope s2a can speak more like Cal, less blunt, less aggresive, and full of humor and a sense of deep hidden philosophy, and definitely this would add a refreshing wind to the RF with his usual lots of hard facts and good reasoning)

He has heard different religious viewpoints that attempt to describe what a heaven is like, but obviously no one has been able to convince him or give him a definite clear answer to what he is seeking.

Hence he found the RF, and he must have found this forum to be full of knowledgeable kind patient people (like Michel? Scott?) who may be able to enlighten him, and he may be able to find the "Truth" here.

So he is trying to see whether any one can convince him that there is such thing as HEAVEN, from a logical point of view, from a scientific point of view, or from a biblical point of view. I believe from the thread I read so far, no one has managed to convince him point for point.

He liked to have all Christians to admit that it is by faith that Heaven existed. If you admit that, than he has nothing else to argue with you.

So I do not think s2a has an aswer to corrupt priest stand:

biblically speaking, im not sure what the bible says abotu heaven its self, its content, its substance etc, but i know that if we sould understand it with a human mind then it would not be heaven
heaven by its very nature is incomprehendible to the human mind, we can only know things through experience, and because there is no such experience to the liking of heaven here on earth, we cannot know what it is until we get there

Let us all take the stand that "Heaven is to each heart", then, Christian heaven will be great to Christians, Muslim heaven will be great to Muslim, Buddhist heaven will be great Buddhist, and Atheist heaven will be great to Atheist. Let us not try to understand the heaven of the other person, as when we understand the heaven of the other person, our own heaven will be lost.....

 

[s2a]

Hello corrupt_priest,

You said:

"...what is it your looking for s2a? and answer to "what is heaven like?"

...well, scholars, theists, theologians, rabbi's, school kids through out the ages have all debated that one, and guess what, they still dont actually know"

I suppose that is the point I would like a "true believer" to substantiate and rationalize. I consider "I don't know" (at least) a viable and honest answer to a difficult question that requests a definitive conclusion.

The "problem" - in my view - is that Heaven is accepted by adherents (through faith) as an established fact and "truth" (as both a veritable "place", and an undeniable consequential destination and reward for the faithful). Such a "fact" and "truth" is preached by adherents as the "good news" - that life isn't "meaningless", or absent purpose; that being "good" (and faithful) is better than being "bad" ("Bad people go to Hell, you see); and that the "reward" of Heaven far surpasses the available choices and experiences that a brief, but mortal (and finite) existence seem to provide. Believe it...or go to Hell.

If you "believe" in the claims of a Christian Heaven, all I'm asking is "why do you believe them to be factual and true...based upon the very evidence (testimony) provided within the religious texts that predicate and substantiate your beliefs"? If the substantiation of Heaven is vague (in Scripture), then how is absolute certainty (of Heaven) derived as an inescapable conclusion?

The "thing" that separates our species from (and arguably "above") all others is our capacity for reason. If we think (or "believe") something to be true (or...as an ultimate truth), then we can (and should) be able to explain by reason "why" we think a "what" is true.

If faith is a rationale for the absence of reason, then what is a reasoning specie to accept as rational explanation (or motive) of a defined belief? Even pure emotion is not devoid of (or removed from) all reason. We question our motives, and actions, and behavior, even (and especially) when rooted in emotion, and appeals to emotion.

[I "love" the new Mustang. I want the new Mustang. Pure as any other emotional response to a visceral (or ethereal) thing, I know that the new Mustang is for me. It speaks to me. It calls to me. It says, "I am yours, and you are mine". I believe in the verity of my undiluted emotion. Yet...is such a pure and undiluted emotional response therefore absolved from any/all other reason and rational prudence?
No.
As a rational thinker (and as a person with responsibilities/accountabilities to both myself and others), I must evaluate even my purely emotional response (however earnest, sincere, and genuine it feels/seems), and ultimately determine whether it makes sense that emotion should surpass reason (and need and want) as motivation to action...and acceptance of a notion as inescapable and/or unavoidable. I retreat and examine many factors in reasoning and rationalizing the "why" of what I "feel" (or have faith) is heartfelt and true.

I still love the idea of owning a new Mustang - but I've come to accept that the reasons for buying one (or belief that I should), do not outweigh the numerous rational reasons counter to such an otherwise desirable outcome.]

If faith ("...in general, the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true" - [Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13]), in fact, does incorporate reason in garnering an unequivocal conclusion...then what "reason(s)" does an acceptant/adherant believer point towards as "persuasive" in a determination/assertion of [a] "truth"? The Bible is (presumably) the sole "official" religious text available to Christians as source, affirmation, and documentation as to the very claims, tenants, and foundations of their faith. No other religious text offers the identical accountings/claims of the promise of a Christian Heaven. None. True enough, anyone can "believe" in some sort of afterlife "Heaven", or "Paradise" (or whatever); but Christians have their own "version" to either "believe in", or accept as fact...as promised by God Himself.

"biblically speaking, im not sure what the bible says abotu heaven its self, its content, its substance etc, but i know that if we sould understand it with a human mind then it would not be heaven"

I appreciate your candor in your concession of ignorance of what the Bible says. Then again, after such a concession, I am left but to wonder how you arrive at your offered conclusion. Statements of "I don't know, but I believe anyway..." are the very reason that many do not believe. The persuasion of your mind is of no doubt compelling to you...but not especially so to others.

"heaven by its very nature is incomprehendible to the human mind, we can only know things through experience, and because there is no such experience to the liking of heaven here on earth, we cannot know what it is until we get there"

Why is it incomprehensible? I've never been to Australia, but I surely can speak to others that have been/lived there. I can read books, and see pictures of the wonders and people that are resident there. I can plan a detailed visit of where to go, and when, to "see for myself". If (after evaluating the combined resources) I find nothing of interest to pursue or experience firsthand in Australia (or some other requisite accomodation is unmet), I can choose to look elsewhere for vacation (or retirement) options.

Travel brochures are not substitute for actually experiencing a destination of interest; but they can help you decide whether or not such a destination is desirable or preferable over another...or at least what to reasonably expect to see and experience upon your arrival.

If either Heaven or Hell is "incomprehensible" (to the human mind), then how is anyone to make an informed decision as to which is preferable or desirable (or for that matter, pure bunk)?

"you speak of travel brouchures, why? whats your idea of heaven? your first post is liking heaven to a one room appartment and a long long time spent doing naff all, thats a very human concept of eternity, and therefor (in connection to the above paragraph) very far from what heaven actually is"

Waitaminnit. You just said that the concept of Heaven is "incomprehensible". If so, how is my understanding any more inaccurate than the one you have even yet to offer?

"for biblical wordings on heaven ask scott or someone else who looks like they could reference the entire bible in half an hour, but i doubt they can give you what you seem to be seeking - that is to say, a detailed floor map of where the toilets are in relation to the swimming pool"

If I need to pee after a nice swim, I don't need a blueprint or a floorplan - but a quick examination of the premises, and a sign over the restroom would be a start (gender classification would be nice too). In essence, all you are offering is, "If you need change into your Speedo, or to pee, there will be a place to do that. I'm not sure there will be one, or what it will look like...but trust me anyway."

Thanks, but I'm not sure I can hold it that long...;-)

 

[s2a]

Hello Scott1,

You said:

"Well aren't you a pleasant fellow!"

I am. Well met indeed.

"My faith does not rely on the need to quote Chapter and Verse from Scripture... that you feel the need to look for "answers" in the Bible is not my problem."

Bully for you. I have no compelling need for Biblical "answers", for I do not predicate any claims upon it's texts. In your faith, you may.

I said:
"I only accept what you (adherently) profess yourself to be..."

You replied:

How about you stick to being an atheist and let me worry about myself, deal?

I sustain no overwrought concern over whatever you may profess for yourself as ideology or religion. I suspect your feelings regarding my atheism are similar.


I illustrated:
"Willful mischaracterization."

You condescended (in emoticon jest):

You poor thing.

Poor evasion lacking substantiative defense or rebuttal. ;-)


I asked:
"It's of no consequence to me whether you adhere to Catholic dogma in principle or practice...but if you don't...then what defines you as a Roman Catholic?"

You replied:

Again... how about we deal with the topic at hand... your obsession with what and what does not "define" me is growing old quickly.

Obsession? Two pointed questions put of you now qualify as obsessive?

I'd be pleased to remain on topic. My "obsession" was merely an expressed interest in understanding your apparent, uniquely "revealed" perspective (which seems at odds with "standard" Roman Catholicism). If you have no wish to elaborate/elucidate further, then I'll be pleased to simply entertain your topical replies.

"The problem is that your original question asked "what’s so great about a Christian heaven?" and I have attempted to answer that, as a Christian.... but you seem to want an answer from a Bible-only Christian, which I am not.... I believed in heaven before I ever picked up a Bible... but I guess that does not fit into your plan for this thread..."

If you have authoritative and universally accepted extra-Biblical texts that are acknowledged by all Christians as veritably "the Word of God", I'd be pleased for you to reference such resources.

Personally, I don't care if you're: Roman Catholic; LDS; Santeria; Church of God with Signs Following (Serpent-handlers); or faithful adherent of The People's Temple Full Gospel Church; they're all equal bunk to me. But all aforementioned adherents claim themselves as "Christians" (with acknowledgeable differing viewpoints/perspectives on Biblical "truths"). I'm not sure what distinctions qualify a "Bible-only" Christian (as you suggest) from, um...some other kind/type of Christian (hence, my inquiry as to your own defining aspect as a professed Roman Catholic).

If you're simply a representative of "The Church of Other-than-the-Bible Christian Believers Named Scott", then perhaps you'll forgive my ignorance as to the substance and foundations of what your personalized claims of Heaven may entail.

To revisit when you said:

""The problem is that your original question asked "what’s so great about a Christian heaven?" and I have attempted to answer that, as a Christian..."

Where, exactly? In which post? Could you reference the number of that post within this thread? What answer did you generously provide for my consideration? As well as I can determine upon revisitation of your posts addressed for my benefit, you only "answer" to the question at hand was..."Happiness" (Post #77), and "God" (post # 81). The remaining entirety of your posts has been left to engage in semantical banter and qualification of my originating thread as "gibberish".

Your "answers" are appreciated, but not especially insightful - and certainly not unique amongst many varying religious beliefs both within and outside of Christianity. Your summary "answer" of "God" + "Happiness" = "Heaven" is a lovely sentiment to be sure, but not really an "answer" to the "gibberish" I premised and posed in the originating post.

"I'm not trying to "sell" you anything.... YOU are the atheist who came to a RELIGIOUS forum to discuss religion.... methinks one of us is trying to "sell" something... and it aint me."

If you like, you can read my introductory post (my "mission statement", if you will) to understand why I have chosen to participate and contribute within this community:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=185180#post185180 ]

I asked:
"Recall, the topic at hand refers to the Christian (Biblical) claims of Heaven as recounted in the Bible. Is there some other outside source (of equal validiity) of equal claim that I am unaware of that you could provide?"

You said:

Once again... Christian does not always mean Biblical.... I came to faith without reading the Bible and I have faith in the Church which came BEFORE the Bible.... I view the Sacred Traditions of the Church of equal validity to Scripture.

Fine. Your personalized testimony is noted.
"The Sacred Traditions of the Church". Which Church? Would that be the Catholic Church? Is is your assertion that that Church predates the Bible?

While I'll grant you that the moniker "Christianoi" was suggestively derisive in initial application [Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16], only to later be embraced by Christians as an acceptable and appropriate "label", the contemporary "definition" of a "Christian" is found as:

"Christian" - n:
"1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

"n : a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination."
Source: WordNet ® 2.0

If you would like to claim/offer Christ's direct teachings from an extra-Biblical source (as regards claims of His Heaven), be my guest.

As regards general claims of a Christian Heaven, you're most welcome to reference written extra-Biblical or "Sacred Traditions of the Church" that lend specificity/detail to the question at hand (beyond "God" and "Happiness"), or how such extra-Biblical texts may differ from, or enhance, the otherwise "narrowed" Biblical claims of Heaven - if not for my benefit, then at least for the elucidation of other "Biblical Christians" that might like to know such things...

"Your invective sarcasm betrays your true nature.... I'll be praying for ya."

On the contrary, application of invective sarcasm (when apt) is decidedly an ingrained part of my true nature. ;-)

 

[LongGe123]

The original creator of the thread raises a good point. It is, in my view, categorically impossible to come up with a true idea of a place which would be universally considered a paradise by absolutely everyone. As the old saying goes - One man's Heaven is another man's Hell.

If there is some sort of weird heavenly after life then I believe we all would have to make our own, more like what happens in that film "What Dreams May Come". In that film people go to Heaven and Hell but it's more a Heaven and Hell of their own making. This idea seems a more acceptable one to me, and if I were ever to believe in some idea like this then I'd probably opt for that area.

Of course truly I don't believe we should dwell on what happens after death, since it is such a distraction from the here and now. We should all learn from George Lucas and the teachings of the Jedi. The Jedi believe thinking about too much about the future, constantly dreaming and having your head in the clouds is bad, because it takes away from the moment, the here and now. We should all concentrate on where we are, what we are doing and why. Sure it's good sometimes to think about where we might do and what might become of us, but if we spend all our time thinking about our future then nothing will happen in the present!

The world we are living in is a wonderful place, and we shouldn't give up on it so quickly. We should be working to make this world even better, so that everyone can enjoy it and have an opportunity to live the life they want to lead. These are the beliefs I strongly adhere to, and will stick to resolutely!

 

[michel]

The original creator of the thread raises a good point. It is, in my view, categorically impossible to come up with a true idea of a place which would be universally considered a paradise by absolutely everyone. As the old saying goes - One man's Heaven is another man's Hell.

If there is some sort of weird heavenly after life then I believe we all would have to make our own, more like what happens in that film "What Dreams May Come". In that film people go to Heaven and Hell but it's more a Heaven and Hell of their own making. This idea seems a more acceptable one to me, and if I were ever to believe in some idea like this then I'd probably opt for that area.

Of course truly I don't believe we should dwell on what happens after death, since it is such a distraction from the here and now. We should all learn from George Lucas and the teachings of the Jedi. The Jedi believe thinking about too much about the future, constantly dreaming and having your head in the clouds is bad, because it takes away from the moment, the here and now. We should all concentrate on where we are, what we are doing and why. Sure it's good sometimes to think about where we might do and what might become of us, but if we spend all our time thinking about our future then nothing will happen in the present!

The world we are living in is a wonderful place, and we shouldn't give up on it so quickly. We should be working to make this world even better, so that everyone can enjoy it and have an opportunity to live the life they want to lead. These are the beliefs I strongly adhere to, and will stick to resolutely!

There is much to be said for what you have said - and that is 'Along the lines of Buddhist thinking' (I think I am right in saying that). In that 'Here and Now' matters - let go of the past, and the future is unknowable, so leave it until it happens.

The difficulty arises, I see it, more as a result of this type of thread, in the context of a Challenge, by someone, for a clear, concise, scientific in methodology, arrived at definitiomn of heaven - and that, of course, is impossible.

A very great part of Religion relies in FAITH - and that is just what it says - Faith. I have faith in the love that my wife has for me (But there again, that is nothing for which I have scientific proof of).

 

[Scott1]

I am. Well met indeed.

Don't doubt you for a minute... I'm rather enjoying our "chat"... I do appreciate it.

If you have no wish to elaborate/elucidate further, then I'll be pleased to simply entertain your topical replies.

Please do so.

"The Sacred Traditions of the Church". Which Church? Would that be the Catholic Church? Is is your assertion that that Church predates the Bible?

Yep... but that's for another thread.

As regards general claims of a Christian Heaven, you're most welcome to reference written extra-Biblical or "Sacred Traditions of the Church" that lend specificity/detail to the question at hand

Why, thank you...
Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face.
(CCC #1023 1 Jn 3:2; cf. 1 Cor 13:12; Rev 22:4.)

That's it... that's heaven to me.

On the contrary, application of invective sarcasm (when apt) is decidedly an ingrained part of my true nature. ;-)

Hehe.. well said... me too, unfortunately.

 

[greatcalgarian]

If faith ("...in general, the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true" - [Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13]), in fact, does incorporate reason in garnering an unequivocal conclusion...then what "reason(s)" does an acceptant/adherant believer point towards as "persuasive" in a determination/assertion of [a] "truth"? The Bible is (presumably) the sole "official" religious text available to Christians as source, affirmation, and documentation as to the very claims, tenants, and foundations of their faith. No other religious text offers the identical accountings/claims of the promise of a Christian Heaven. None. True enough, anyone can "believe" in some sort of afterlife "Heaven", or "Paradise" (or whatever); but Christians have their own "version" to either "believe in", or accept as fact...as promised by God Himself.

I believe the Muslim concept of Heaven is very similar to the Christians, and Koran also has some references to Heaven. Muslim also accept OT, so may have the same idea of the concept of Heaven as expounded in OT. Perhaps our Muslim brothers can enlightened. May be not, since this thread specifically wants to discuss only Christian's Heaven.

 

[martha]

You will know heaven when your being leaves it's body post and comes face to face with unconditional LOVE.Your only desire will be thus; to be absorbed into the abyss of unfathomable, overwhelming presence of LOVE. For it is this Love that is the author of existance. Many mansions, multitudes of singing angels, golden streets will mean nothing to you! Only the unconditional, permeating, all encompassing Love of your Creator will envelope your being. That will be your Heaven. I promise you. It will be awesome beyond all expectation!

 

[s2a]

Hello greatcalgarian

You queried:

"What is the objective of s2a posting regarding Heaven in this thread?

Let me try, but I may be wrong. I believe Cal has gone from the first phrase of the bible (In the beginning) to the last sentence (be with you all, AMEN), and could not find a clear answer to the definition of Heaven, after argueing with Hobbes for months and years.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/candh.htm"

1) Your assessment is fairly succinct, but it's not my conclusion that remains in question. Claims of a belief in a Christian Heaven persist (with many "added" assumptions of what Heaven may or may not be, dependent upon the individual adherent).
2) My premised and (deliberately open-ended) correlated question seeks answer not to what Heaven is (or is not), but upon what religious dogma/text (with referenced Chapter and Verse) a Christian bases/predicates their claims (and tries to "sell" to unbelievers) - in other words (again), "Why do they believe what they believe is true (for everyone) about Heaven?".

Heck, if I believe that eating spinach is good for everyone (and believe that wholeheartedly - no pun intended), at the very least I can point to, illustrate, and reference numerous credible sources that support and confirm my good-natured "belief" of the undeniable benefits of spinach ingestion/digestion. I need not ask anyone to accept my claim "on faith", nor would I suggest they are condemned to lifelong ill-health if they say "I don't like spinach".

Yet believers claim that their version of spinach has: miraculous properties; unimagined benefits to the consumer (no less that solution to all of their ills); universal applicability and access (albeit, with critical caveats of acceptance); and that everyone will like their spinach...because if you don't: you're just living in denial of what's "good for you"; or you're hedonistic; or you are just hard-headed when confronted with "uncomfortable" truths. And oh...if you don't eat their spinach, you'll be really, really sorry.

But if a skeptic asks for some sort of documentation and direct evidence supporting claims of this unique and life-changing spinach...invariably (after much evasion, misdirection, spurious allegation, and rhetorical questioning) the prospective (and dubious) consumer is entreated to simply "believe" the claims as offered as a matter of faith, and faith alone. For that matter, without such faith, the spinach actually has no benefit whatsoever.

I know that snake-oil salesman were generally reviled, yet quite successful in the nineteenth century...but who bears the greatest responsibility of spurious claims offered in the long run? The snake-oil manufacturers, it's purveyors, or it's potential end-consumers?

"(I hope s2a can speak more like Cal, less blunt, less aggresive, and full of humor and a sense of deep hidden philosophy, and definitely this would add a refreshing wind to the RF with his usual lots of hard facts and good reasoning)"

I'm saving up my very best flatulence and turd-throwing primate jokes for the exact opportune and most prime moments...;-)

"He has heard different religious viewpoints that attempt to describe what a heaven is like, but obviously no one has been able to convince him or give him a definite clear answer to what he is seeking.

Hence he found the RF, and he must have found this forum to be full of knowledgeable kind patient people (like Michel? Scott?) who may be able to enlighten him, and he may be able to find the "Truth" here."

I appreciate your earnest effort in trying to "explain" my motivations, but I assure you (as expressed in my initial introductory post) that I seek no existential or personalized truth here. None. I am on no quest for any proffered religion-based "truth". I would like (prefer) candor and honesty (the truth, if you like) from respondents regarding questions I may pose, or more generally to the at-hand topic as premised/presented. If you believe what you believe is the truth (or some erstwhile ultimate truth), all I ask is that you support your claim in referenced source (whatever that may be). If you "believe" something is true, then..."why do you believe it to be so...and most importantly, upon what foundation do you preclude/presume/profess such certainty?

"He liked to have all Christians to admit that it is by faith that Heaven existed. If you admit that, than he has nothing else to argue with you."

Well...sort of, but that's not the full extent of the interest expressed (or necessarily satisfactory to conclusively resolve discussions of divergent viewpoints). I have already (and repeatedly) acknowledged that a Heaven construct/concept is relegated to matters of religious faith. But upon what is that faith predicated? Why do you believe what you believe...is true? Is faith the absence of all reason or logic, or is it not? If it's not (and few believers would claim that such is so), then what is the underlying reason or logic that you rely upon and use to reach the claims and conclusions you proffer as undeniable truth?


You offered the lovely existential sentiment of:

"Let us all take the stand that "Heaven is to each heart", then, Christian heaven will be great to Christians, Muslim heaven will be great to Muslim, Buddhist heaven will be great Buddhist, and Atheist heaven will be great to Atheist. Let us not try to understand the heaven of the other person, as when we understand the heaven of the other person, our own heaven will be lost....."

You'll excuse me for saying so, but most atheists already espouse that level of emotional/intellectual tolerance (ie, "to each their own"). I don't care what anyone "believes", as long as they don't try make their beliefs a matter of civic/criminal law, governmental policy, or a rationale in the applicable denial of others of their own merited and equal civic/human rights as individual persons.

But...most monotheistic religious adherents believe that their version of truth is not only veritable and comprehensively/universally applicable, but that when others express/espouse alternate/differing accountings/versions/claims of their own religiously predicated truths, that those "others" are evil, misguided, or otherwise downright dangerous...and must be "dealt with" (opposed/ridiculed/destroyed) by whatever means/motives available. Because...their belief tells them so...

So...I "believe"...that if we can understand our own individualized motivations (regardless of conceptual pretext or religious affiliation) before we begin to question/impugn the motivations/actions/behavior of others, we as a species might actually profit (both intellectually and emotionally) from such prospective understandings, and focus more upon what is factually evident and rationally/theoretically possible, instead of insisting upon foregone and immutable conclusions (with questionable defense/support thereof) whose primary answers are "I'm right and you're wrong", or "Just trust me, and all will be well".

If you had put my "defense" in those terms...I might have bought you another cocktail...;-)

 

[greatcalgarian]

If you had put my "defense" in those terms...I might have bought you another cocktail...;-)

I need a beer this time, Calgary has been pretty hot this week

I do not have that much time to elaborate in details, but I do believe it will catalyse good response from you:bounce

 

[Scuba Pete]

I am not going to go back and read all ten pages to "catch up", but Heaven is being in the presense of God. Hell is is the absense of God. You choose your own destination and in the grand scheme of things the "particulars" are mere "details". I choose to be with God, not without him.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I am not going to go back and read all ten pages to "catch up", but Heaven is being in the presense of God. Hell is is the absense of God. You choose your own destination and in the grand scheme of things the "particulars" are mere "details". I choose to be with God, not without him.

The purpose of this thread is to find out whether there is any scriptual support or scriptual description of what a heaven is like.

So if Heaven is being in the presense of God, where was this specifically stated in the bible? What is exactly to be with God with our current understanding of life on earth?

Definitely many people are keen to know what is meant by "to be with God". Do we do things like back in Adam and Eve's era before they ate the apple, just looking after the Garden of Eden completely naked, and God may just drop in once in a while to check and see whether we have been naughty or good? Or is it completely different setup this new heaven that believers and those being saved are heading towards?

 

[Scuba Pete]

GC... Heaven is a "Faith Thing"

Matthew 13:10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. NIV

We cannot hope to understand heaven in this life time, for it is spirit centered and we are focused almost exclusively on the physical. Let's look at this passage from I Corinthians

I Corinthians 13:42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.


50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. NIV

Imperishable, incorruptible, spiritual... these are but shadows of the reality. A reality for which we do not possess the vocabulary or the understanding to be able to comprehend it NOW. When we finally get there, it will be clear, but not until!

But I do know that God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all, and that Satan is the prince of darkness. Being in heaven is being in the presence of God, while hell is his perfect absense. We can experience the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth as we grow in God's grace and we can fellowship with heaven's future residents as well.

But as for the "particulars" of heaven... good luck. Our vocabulary cannot describe it and our physical focus impairs our spiritual vision. That's why there are not many passages that endeavor to try to explain the impossible. It can't do it justice and they seem to confuse the bediddle out of us.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Imperishable, incorruptible, spiritual... these are but shadows of the reality. A reality for which we do not possess the vocabulary or the understanding to be able to comprehend it NOW. When we finally get there, it will be clear, but not until!

I presume that there is no way we can tell what heaven is like when we are alive?

But as for the "particulars" of heaven... good luck. Our vocabulary cannot describe it and our physical focus impairs our spiritual vision.

If I cannot envisage spiritual aspect during my current physical existence and mental consciousness, then there is no way for me to know what heaven is like?