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So what's wrong with UKIP?

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Every party has "bigots" that support it. All of the parties do, it's a fact. Unfortunately for UKIP, people are highlighting this bigots, holding them up to the light, and saying: "This is UKIP's view". Well it isn't.

But of course, is public image not important?

Of course they have. Nigel Farage admitted to being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds for his position. But at least he admits it, as others don't.

To be totally honest with you, I kind of agree on some of these points. Politics in general is rife with corruption, targeting the most vulnerable members of society, lies and generally seems more suited to lining the pockets of the already wealthy than ... y'know, governing. A lot of the issues I have with UKIP are present in other parties (and for what it's worth I don't have many nice things to say about them either).

However, where we'll almost certainly never agree is that I don't see UKIP as a step in the right direction. If anything, they seem to embody everything about politics that makes me simultaneously bored and angry.

Can I ask you an honest question? If the other parties were to sincerely offer a referendum on leaving Europe, would you still back UKIP?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
People have tried to pass off UKIP as very extreme.
That wasn't my intention. I said they attract some racist kooks and failed to properly address that problem. I don't believe the core of UKIP is especially racist or extreme but I do think they fail to speak out against such things, especially in their early days, because they didn't want to alienate the section of their support that is. I think that's a dangerous game to play and it has coloured their public image, even if some of that is unfair.

And actually if you look at it, both on the European Union question and in Britain, UKIP's view is now becoming the majority view amongst most voters.
The UK leaving the European Union entirely would be an extreme act and the proportion of British people who believe it would be a good thing doesn't change that. Extreme =/= unpopular.

Here's a hint: They aren't interested on whether people are black, white, yellow, or rich: they just aren't interested in that.
They're just as interested in that as everyone else. I'm not suggesting they're any worse than the mainstream political parties on this aspect, I'm suggesting they're exactly the same. For an organisation trying to sell itself on being a new force in British politics and pull in protest votes against the Westminster establishment, that is a problem.

They aren't anti-European. They are just don't like the European Union.
That's what I meant of course. Nobody in their right mind is anti-European geographically, only politically. I agree with you on a lot of the problems you list. I just don't think UKIP is the solution.

This I agree with. Farage is an incredible orator and statesman, and, without him, UKIP would not be where it is.
Yes, but I want good governors in office. Good orators belong on stage. Again, that's a wider issue with the political establishment that Farage, and by association UKIP, remains a part of however much they pretend not to be.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
To be totally honest with you, I kind of agree on some of these points. Politics in general is rife with corruption, targeting the most vulnerable members of society, lies and generally seems more suited to lining the pockets of the already wealthy than ... y'know, governing. A lot of the issues I have with UKIP are present in other parties (and for what it's worth I don't have many nice things to say about them either).

However, where we'll almost certainly never agree is that I don't see UKIP as a step in the right direction. If anything, they seem to embody everything about politics that makes me simultaneously bored and angry.

Can I ask you an honest question? If the other parties were to sincerely offer a referendum on leaving Europe, would you still back UKIP?

Labour are pro-EU.
LibDem are pro-EU.
Conservative are pro-EU.
UKIP are anti-EU.
There will be no referendum unless UKIP is involved. The fact that there hasn't been a referendum since to the rise of UKIP clearly tells me that the main parties don't care what we think. They don't care for a self-governing democracy anymore. To be frank, I would go so far as to say that they are spineless. Spineless because they don't want to run this country, but hand it over to a foreign institution. And, to be quite honest, I would rather keep the £20,000,000,000/year fear (not including the economical growth tax) and spend it on fixing the NHS- as it would do that, no problem. Even if UKIP were a one-man policy party (which they aren't, by the way, as Nigel Farage is actually very capable), fixing the NHS during their time in Parliament would be a thrilling success. And before you say "UKIP aren't qualified to run a country", just take a look at our current Chancellor of the Exchequer! This is the man that handles our finances, and he didn't even take Economics and Maths! Even goddamn Ed Balls is more qualified to be in his position.

Sure, if the other party leaders wanted to leave/held a referendum, then I would vote for them. But they won't. Unless there is a coalition government, of course.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
That wasn't my intention. I said they attract some racist kooks and failed to properly address that problem. I don't believe the core of UKIP is especially racist or extreme but I do think they fail to speak out against such things, especially in their early days, because they didn't want to alienate the section of their support that is. I think that's a dangerous game to play and it has coloured their public image, even if some of that is unfair.

What!? Nigel Farrage always dismisses the fact that racists/kooks hold the parties views. This is addressing the problem.

The UK leaving the European Union entirely would be an extreme act and the proportion of British people who believe it would be a good thing doesn't change that. Extreme =/= unpopular.

Majority/Traditionalism =/= Extreme.
Also, what are you basing this extremism on? I could just as well say that wanting to stay in the EU is extreme.

They're just as interested in that as everyone else. I'm not suggesting they're any worse than the mainstream political parties on this aspect, I'm suggesting they're exactly the same. For an organisation trying to sell itself on being a new force in British politics and pull in protest votes against the Westminster establishment, that is a problem.

If all the other parties do it, then what's the problem? Why are you picking on UKIP, specifically?
And it is a 'new force' in British politics. It used to be LibLabCon, yes? 5 years ago, this is what it was. It is now LibConUKIP. I see a new force here.
And why is being AS interested in race (at least, in your opinion) as the other parties a problem? How does this correlate to picking up protest votes?

That's what I meant of course. Nobody in their right mind is anti-European geographically, only politically. I agree with you on a lot of the problems you list. I just don't think UKIP is the solution.

Then what is the solution? We have exhausted our options, my friend.
Our lad, Dave, has already tried to come to different terms with the Beaurocrats. "Oh I'll amend it" "Oh, I'll bend and break the rules"- I have heard it all and it has not worked. Even Miss Merkel told us: "You conform to the rules completely, or you leave."
We can't conform to the rules, so we leave.

Yes, but I want good governors in office. Good orators belong on stage. Again, that's a wider issue with the political establishment that Farage, and by association UKIP, remains a part of however much they pretend not to be.

And I want to be paid in Porsche cars. But guess what? It's not an ideal world and I need to live within my means. And, looking at the fact, UKIP is the best means for this issue.[/QUOTE]
 

DayRaven

Beyond the wall
There will be no referendum unless UKIP is involved.

The chances of a referendum at all are low. Do you honestly believe David Cameron will hold to his promise if he remains (unlikely despite Labour's best efforts) PM? Why would he? He has reneged on "cast iron" guarantees before: this would be no different.

Even if we had a referendum what do you believe the chances of a victory for the EU exit campaign would be? Personally I would give it a one in ten chance. I would vote to leave (even though I'm against referendums on principle) but I reckon I'm in a minority (certainly in the under forties). The pro EU argument would consist of all the major parties, practically the whole media (minus the Daily Express) including the global heavy weights, most of UK business and the multinationals, the US, Japan and the rest of the G20. Against that you have UKIP, a few Tory back benches and the Daily Express.

Elections and referendums are decided on cash, image and presence. Game over.

They don't care for a self-governing democracy anymore.

The English settlement is broken and (probably) irreparable. Up until, roughly, the late 1970's we had a system of governance that had served the country for three hundred or so years. Parliament, Crown, Church (not quite the three C's). Of these Parliament (whilst in theory sovereign) is really a rubber stamp for legislation made elsewhere and is bought by global business. The Church is an irrelevance that has decided its position in a non-Christian and increasingly anti-Christian state is more important than what it claims to represent. The Crown hangs on, for now, but I doubt it will be here in 2114 and by then Parliament and the Church will be ruins and memory.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
The chances of a referendum at all are low. Do you honestly believe David Cameron will hold to his promise if he remains (unlikely despite Labour's best efforts) PM? Why would he? He has reneged on "cast iron" guarantees before: this would be no different.

There will be no referendum unless UKIP are involved.

It's quite clear that I had not implied that there would be referendum is David is kept in Number 10. I merely said that there would be no referendum unless we have a Tory/UKIP Coalition in 2015.

Even if we had a referendum what do you believe the chances of a victory for the EU exit campaign would be? Personally I would give it a one in ten chance. I would vote to leave (even though I'm against referendums on principle) but I reckon I'm in a minority (certainly in the under forties). The pro EU argument would consist of all the major parties, practically the whole media (minus the Daily Express) including the global heavy weights, most of UK business and the multinationals, the US, Japan and the rest of the G20. Against that you have UKIP, a few Tory back benches and the Daily Express.

I understand that if there is a hung parliament, a referendum would be issued on the matter. And it would then return a somewhat 30-35% Yes, 65-70% No. However, we are going to be continued to be squeezed under EU rule, and, eventually, Dave will succumb to have to succumb to public pressure/Nigel Farage and issue another referendum/opt out.




The English settlement is broken and (probably) irreparable. Up until, roughly, the late 1970's we had a system of governance that had served the country for three hundred or so years. Parliament, Crown, Church (not quite the three C's). Of these Parliament (whilst in theory sovereign) is really a rubber stamp for legislation made elsewhere and is bought by global business. The Church is an irrelevance that has decided its position in a non-Christian and increasingly anti-Christian state is more important than what it claims to represent. The Crown hangs on, for now, but I doubt it will be here in 2114 and by then Parliament and the Church will be ruins and memory.

It is reparable. And the first step needed to repair it is by taking back power from our Eurocratic friends.
And what is with the history lesson? Quite the irrelevant content. And it will be earlier than 2114.
Are you pro-EU?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ah, well I would suppose you don't live in a city then?
Because when I walk 200 meters from where I live, I am greeted by a melting pot of ethnic races: a lot of the people in the area claim benefits without working, also.
This is the stark reality of what we, as taxpayers, are dealing with. Life tourism..

Hi....... Firstly, let me just check....... you live in Chelsea and within 200 meters of you there are loads of folks on benefits? I love your post because it made me laugh on a miserable Thursday morning! :p

Next...... you combine ethnic races with 'a lot of benefits claimants'. Down here in Canterbury our Job centres have got jobs, but local folks won't do 'em! My boss gets eastern Europeans to work for him because they WORK, they are RELIABLE, they are CONSISTENT, etc. :)

Having said all that, I am going to vote UKIP at the General Election.
1. The Brit public and Oldbadger are all bored to sleep over politics and a good UKIP % in jolly old Parliament will make us interested again.
2. A good % of UKIPs in Parliament will wake up our lazy, careless, often corrupted MPs and get things moving again.
2. We do need to control our intake of people better because we have 60+ million folks in a small country.
3. I would like to see how well we can manage outside the EU, because I have not seen that many benefits from us being within it.
4. I would like to see our legislation and our Judgements upheld, rather than interfered with by EU judges and legislators.
5. I like seeing vids of Farage getting egged, etc....... good fun. :p

It'll wake Britain up.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
What!? Nigel Farrage always dismisses the fact that racists/kooks hold the parties views. This is addressing the problem.
They're dismissed (or otherwise leave) when their views become public and damaging to the party (again, like all the other parties) but that doesn't address the issue of why they attract such people in the first place or why those people feel they will get away expressing such views within it. It's an image problem as much as anything else but, as I've said, I think they're struggling to resolve that image problem in part because they don't actually want to dissuade those voters who may well share (or at least sympathise with) some of those views.

Also, what are you basing this extremism on? I could just as well say that wanting to stay in the EU is extreme.
Leaving the EU entirely is one extreme, taking the Euro and moving towards federalism is another. I consider both prospects similarly flawed.

If all the other parties do it, then what's the problem? Why are you picking on UKIP, specifically?
Because the thread title is "What's wrong with UKIP". Also, a party being presented as a change from the establishment has a more significant issue with looking and acting like the mainstream parties they're standing against.

Then what is the solution? We have exhausted our options, my friend.
There isn't a solution and I feel seeking one is symbolic of a wider problem in politics. There are lots of little problems, many of which can never be entirely resolved so we need lots of little solutions to reduce them and mitigate the consequences. UKIP (and it's far from alone) is proposing a big bang "solution" but that will just replace one set of little problems with a whole different set.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
Hi....... Firstly, let me just check....... you live in Chelsea and within 200 meters of you there are loads of folks on benefits? I love your post because it made me laugh on a miserable Thursday morning! :p

Next...... you combine ethnic races with 'a lot of benefits claimants'. Down here in Canterbury our Job centres have got jobs, but local folks won't do 'em! My boss gets eastern Europeans to work for him because they WORK, they are RELIABLE, they are CONSISTENT, etc. :)

Having said all that, I am going to vote UKIP at the General Election.
1. The Brit public and Oldbadger are all bored to sleep over politics and a good UKIP % in jolly old Parliament will make us interested again.
2. A good % of UKIPs in Parliament will wake up our lazy, careless, often corrupted MPs and get things moving again.
2. We do need to control our intake of people better because we have 60+ million folks in a small country.
3. I would like to see how well we can manage outside the EU, because I have not seen that many benefits from us being within it.
4. I would like to see our legislation and our Judgements upheld, rather than interfered with by EU judges and legislators.
5. I like seeing vids of Farage getting egged, etc....... good fun. :p

It'll wake Britain up.

Listen, it doesn't matter where you live in London, there will always be cultural enrichment everywhere..
And yes, they are reliable and consistent, and I am sure that most of them pay their taxes! UKIP doesn't mind that at all. What they have a problem with is the fact that there are a large group of people who get under the radar and nothing can be done about it. We can't send them back because that's against the 'Free Movement of Peoples' clause of EU rules. For example, the European Court of Human Rights made a mockery of UK Acts of Parliament with the whole Abu Hamza fiasco. And let's not forget about Abu Qatada.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
They're dismissed (or otherwise leave) when their views become public and damaging to the party (again, like all the other parties) but that doesn't address the issue of why they attract such people in the first place or why those people feel they will get away expressing such views within it. It's an image problem as much as anything else but, as I've said, I think they're struggling to resolve that image problem in part because they don't actually want to dissuade those voters who may well share (or at least sympathise with) some of those views.

...like ALL other parties. But as I previously said, UKIP take a lot of heat for it because of the powerful opposition forcing upon them such propaganda. And do you know what's quite funny? All this propaganda is slowly retreating into the abyss because it simply is not true. Even anti-UKIP media such as the News of the World (heh) and The Statesman, who used to hurl all sorts of abuse at UKIP, do not do so anymore..

Leaving the EU entirely is one extreme, taking the Euro and moving towards federalism is another. I consider both prospects similarly flawed.

Thank God we didn't join the Euro. Thank God! It would have been an absolutely catastrophe, and I'm pleased to say that there are now some people out there who are now saying: "Sorry, we made a mistake, thank God we weren't listened to at the time." There are, unfortunately, one or two idiots who think we should join the Euro, but those are few in number. The Euro will NEVER be in our national interested because it would be given away our control, our economy, and our interest rates and everything else. But, yes, the Eurozone is a disaster. And don't let anybody in Europe or Parliament tell you that it is not, because it is: it is leading to suffering for tens of millions of people who are being driven into unemployment and poverty. And what's funny is the beaurocrats couldn't care less. They could not give a banana.
Because all that matters to them is that they preserve their European dream and preserve their wallets. They are as bad as the communists in Soviet Russia. TAKING the Euro would be extreme and stupid.

Leaving the EU on the other hand wouldn't be extreme and stupid. It would just be change. And change for the good it would be. How can you say that leaving the EU is flawed? I'm eager to hear your answer.

Because the thread title is "What's wrong with UKIP". Also, a party being presented as a change from the establishment has a more significant issue with looking and acting like the mainstream parties they're standing against.

It is title as such, yes. However, that's not an argument against UKIP because the other options have the same problem. Let's say you are presented with 5 apples. Upon inspection, all apples have a bruise on the bottom of the fruit. You pick apple #3. When asked, "Why did you not pick apple #2?", you would not respond "because it has a bruise on the bottom" because they ALL have a bruise. This is the problem you are presented with.
And UKIP doesn't look like/act mainstream parties. Nigel Farage is very different. He wants out of the EU, he doesn't shy away from speaking in small public places, he is picture with a pint now and then, and he even appeared on HIGNFY. Quite different to "Man of the People" Dave..

There isn't a solution and I feel seeking one is symbolic of a wider problem in politics. There are lots of little problems, many of which can never be entirely resolved so we need lots of little solutions to reduce them and mitigate the consequences. UKIP (and it's far from alone) is proposing a big bang "solution" but that will just replace one set of little problems with a whole different set.

There is a solution regarding giving away powers to a foreign institution: We need to divorce ourselves from POLITICAL union and replace that with a genuine Free Trade Agreement. It's as simple as that.
UKIP doesn't claim to being able to "resolve all problems", but offers a solution to a large problem at the moment. And we will be able to fix a big problem by leaving the EU with the £20bn annually we pay to it, such as fixing the NHS or perhaps curbing FE tuition fees.
It's a snowball effect, really.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
UKIP are the worst sort of little Englanders.
The Policies you mention are not made for us by Europe.
We are part of Europe and our elected members in Europe help to make those policies our selvelves.

UKIP are not team players and can not see the advantage of being part of that vast European team, and the business it brings.
UKIP do not even have the structure and ability to formulate their own policies.. They have to ask Farage what they are.
Farage knows perfectly well how the democratic system works in Europe, he has been part of it. But he now says they, the foreign members, impose their will on the UK.

Like many despotic leaders in the past, he manifests and works on the worst fears of his supporters, who in the main are incapable of understanding even basic political truths. But are only too happy to have their fears confirmed by him.

The whole UKIP philosophy is based on selfishness ignorance and the fear of the stranger.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
We can't send them back because that's against the 'Free Movement of Peoples' clause of EU rules.

Ugh...
The UK can pretty much do to non-EU citizens whatever it wants.

But obviously it can't do to EU citizens whatever it wants because the UK kinda ratified the whole EU thing on Free Movement of People.
I of course realise that this must have come as a shock after some 40 years with it.


And we will be able to fix a big problem by leaving the EU with the £20bn annually we pay to it

So how exactly do you think is the UK gonna trade with the EU? Ever heard about tariffs? Yeah those would be back.


We need to divorce ourselves from POLITICAL union and replace that with a genuine Free Trade Agreement. It's as simple as that.

Funny thing is that the UK will have to keep EU regulations to be able to trade with the EU just like Norway or Switzerland.

And obviously the UK just like Norway or Switzerland won't get a say in the matter of the EU-Regulations.

You think your wonderful "Service Industry" is gonna like it to be treated like an outsider when dealing with anything in the EU?
Oh and obviously the EU-backing of your Agriculture would stop.

Oh and i don't want to tell you not to vote UKIP. Do it.
I'd rather see my money on something else than Farage and quite honestly i just want to see the UK gone.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
Ugh...
The UK can pretty much do to non-EU citizens whatever it wants.

But obviously it can't do to EU citizens whatever it wants because the UK kinda ratified the whole EU thing on Free Movement of People.
I of course realise that this must have come as a shock after some 40 years with it.

Well done, you understand Free Movements of People under EU rule. I was clearly quoting someone who used Eastern Europeans as an example, who would most likely be implying Polish people (as this is by far the most populous eastern european nationality in London).

So how exactly do you think is the UK gonna trade with the EU? Ever heard about tariffs? Yeah those would be back.

What are you on about? You don't trade with the EU, you trade with Europe. The EU is simply a political union; business don't care whether or not we are in the EU concerning trade. Business =/= Politics. Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and Volkswagen will still trade with us whether or not we are in the EU. We are the most important export destination for France and Germany. They sell us £40bn worth of goods MORE every year than we sell them. The very thought that our trade will be harmed is absolutely ludicrous. UKIP like Europe. They want to trade with Europe.

The EU needs our business just as much as we need theirs, they wouldn't dare put high tariffs on our business and even if they did, the common wealth is in our grasp, not to mention the outrage of commonwealth countries and America if the EU took such steps.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Really the hard working Poles are a problem? Oh my.

So you honestly don't know anything about how Norway and Switzerland have to comply to EU rules and EU standardisation even though they aren't part of the EU?

You think the EU is going to beg the UK to trade with it? It will be the other way around as the EU is the bigger market. Of course you can dream to be some kind of tax haven.


We are the most important export destination for France and Germany.

In 2013 the most important trading partner of Germany was France and the most important trading partner of France was... Germany.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
Really the hard working Poles are a problem? Oh my.

I don't know what you're reading and, to be quite frank, I don't want to know what you're reading because it is obviously not my viewpoint and it certainly has no place in this thread.

So you honestly don't know anything about how Norway and Switzerland have to comply to EU rules and EU standardisation even though they aren't part of the EU?

Of course we will have to comply with EU rules when trading with EU Countries. That makes sense to me. I don't see how this is rebuttal, I don't see how this is a con for leaving the EU. The simple fact of the matter is that non-EU countries (surprise! we don't just trade with countries within the EU) won't have to get through the nets of EU rules, and our businesses won't have to plough through the several regulations imposed upon them.
And that is why, in the last 18 months, both the UK aluminium smelters have closed down, it's why much of our steel
production has gone to India, it's why the British cement industry is saying they cannot stay here anymore.

You think the EU is going to beg the UK to trade with it? It will be the other way around as the EU is the bigger market. Of course you can dream to be some kind of tax haven.

Again: Business =/= Politics. We don't trade with the EU. We trade with companies within the EU. And we will continue to buy Audis and Champagne regardless of whether or not we are in this political union.

In 2013 the most important trading partner of Germany was France and the most important trading partner of France was... Germany.

I should have been clearer: I was talking about Export/Import ratios.
The fact of the matter is this: We buy £40bn worth of goods more then they sell us. If they were to stop trade with us because of leaving the EU, as you are implying, that would sever their industries.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
...like ALL other parties. But as I previously said, UKIP take a lot of heat for it because of the powerful opposition forcing upon them such propaganda.
UKIP took/take a lot of heat because they're new and interesting and make themselves easy targets too often. I don't think it's anything personal. Most political "journalism" isn't about politics but about headlines and website hits.

Leaving the EU on the other hand wouldn't be extreme and stupid. It would just be change. And change for the good it would be. How can you say that leaving the EU is flawed? I'm eager to hear your answer.
In simply terms I think we'd lose more than people hope and gain less than they expect. I don't think it would be at all easy to establish the kind of free trade agreement with the EU given the political and economic fallout of our leaving. I don't think the raw numbers of how much we pay to Europe minus how much we receive from them would be a simple bonus if we left - there would certainly be winners and losers within the UK. I don't think it would automatically have a major impact on our immigration numbers and any major crackdown on immigration from Europe could well do us further economic and political damage. Most of the "European laws" people complain about are written in to UK law and are often little different from what we had before so I wouldn't expect much practical change there - people would just be moaning about the UK High Court rather than the ECHR.

However, that's not an argument against UKIP because the other options have the same problem.
I'm not seeking to make an argument against UKIP in favour of any of the other parties. I don't really like any of them. I've personally never voted for a political party, I vote for individual candidates to represent the constituency. Many of them happen to be in political parties, though my preference would be for a good independent. The system is grossly weighed against them though.

And UKIP doesn't look like/act mainstream parties. Nigel Farage is very different. He wants out of the EU, he doesn't shy away from speaking in small public places, he is picture with a pint now and then, and he even appeared on HIGNFY. Quite different to "Man of the People" Dave..
He is indeed a better performer but that doesn't make him a better leader or governor. He is a classic example of the professional political class that has become so much about winning public approval that they forget what they're meant to do when they get in to office.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
If we were to leave the EU all our trade with them would be on EU terms.
the EU is in the final stages of a free trade agreement with the USA.
This would put us at a disadvantage as to trade with both the EU andThe USA
were we to go
There are as many UK citizens living long term in the EU as there are other EU citizens living here. We can no expext them to be better treated than we treat them.
As a young man I lived an worked in Spain under Franco. The regulations at that time were difficult. I would not like to see a return of such restrictions, or the need for visitors visas for either us or other Europeans.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
UKIP took/take a lot of heat because they're new and interesting and make themselves easy targets too often. I don't think it's anything personal. Most political "journalism" isn't about politics but about headlines and website hits.

I agree.

In simply terms I think we'd lose more than people hope and gain less than they expect. I don't think it would be at all easy to establish the kind of free trade agreement with the EU given the political and economic fallout of our leaving. I don't think the raw numbers of how much we pay to Europe minus how much we receive from them would be a simple bonus if we left - there would certainly be winners and losers within the UK. I don't think it would automatically have a major impact on our immigration numbers and any major crackdown on immigration from Europe could well do us further economic and political damage. Most of the "European laws" people complain about are written in to UK law and are often little different from what we had before so I wouldn't expect much practical change there - people would just be moaning about the UK High Court rather than the ECHR.

This debate is being had, not because of it benefiting people, but because how it will affect business and our economy. That is what this boils down to. Let's take very big businesses, and we're talking about giant multi-nationals or giant megabanks, they of course will be very much in favour of EU-style regulation because, whilst it puts some costs on
them, it puts out of business smaller medium-sized competitors. It also makes the cost of entry for new participants in the market virtually impossible. So mega-business goes foot-in-shoe with Brussels. But if you then go and look in London, and look at people operating in foreign exchange, insurance, metals, commodities, equities, and fund management they are terrified of this anti-success and anti-capitalist agenda that we are hearing from Brussels, and, indeed, the hedgefund industry, 80% of which in the European Time Zone is based in St. James' Square in London, 1 in 4 headgefund
managers has left London in the last two years because they are so worried of Brussels' directives.
In terms of people, we won't see such a big change leaving the EU. Granted, we will have the extra £20bn/year bill for EU membership to spend on things like public services, granted we will finally have a cap on immigration, but actually, there will be no immediate effect.

I'm not seeking to make an argument against UKIP in favour of any of the other parties. I don't really like any of them. I've personally never voted for a political party, I vote for individual candidates to represent the constituency. Many of them happen to be in political parties, though my preference would be for a good independent. The system is grossly weighed against them though.

This is a big moment in British politics and it's very important that people vote. In fact, a lot of people say that UKIP voters are ex-Tory voters, but that is absolute nonsense. UKIP comprises of about 1/3 Tory 1/3 Lib Dem, 20% Labour and 10% of people haven't been involved in politics ever, like you. I am voting UKIP because they are about is getting this country back to the way it should be and, indeed, what many people gave their lives to making it, namely, and independent, self-governing, and democratic country.

He is indeed a better performer but that doesn't make him a better leader or governor. He is a classic example of the professional political class that has become so much about winning public approval that they forget what they're meant to do when they get in to office.

Well they aren't a football team. They can't pay to import foreign players. And building a team and building a team with people with significant national media profiles takes time. Anybody is watches politics closely will have seen Stuart Wheeler (treasure) by now, and people like Diane James who stood for UKIP in Eastleigh who has appeared on many things, so there are more UKIP faces appearing on a range of programmes. And sometimes people say: "you're a one-man party", and I say that it's better than being a no-man party really,isn't it? And at least people know who Nigel is and what he stands for (which is more than you can say for some of the 'others'). And, yes, ultimately people want to see a team of people that are fit and capable of being in government, maybe perhaps a coalition government after 2015. Political parties have to evolve and it does take a little bit of time, but I think UKIP is heading in the right direction.
 

DayRaven

Beyond the wall
There will be no referendum unless UKIP are involved.

General elections are not kind (deliberately) to smaller parties. UKIP may win a few seats but I suspect it will already be heading to irrelevance by May 2015.

I understand that if there is a hung parliament, a referendum would be issued on the matter.

Where did you learn this?

And what is with the history lesson?

History is politics.

And it will be earlier than 2114.

What will?

Are you pro-EU?

I agree with its original intent: the prevention of a fourth Franco-German war. Europe cannot afford it and Western civilisation is probably mortally wounded because of it. With Russia awakening again, the US going into retreat and militant Islam plaguing our southern borders the last thing we need is France and Germany at logger heads. As it is I don't fear this: France has accepted the inevitable dominance of the continent by Germany. But no, I'm no fan of the EU: I believe in Western civilisation, the EU does not.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
If we were to leave the EU all our trade with them would be on EU terms.

There is nothing wrong with this. The rest of the world does, so too will we do it. We trade with them under EU terms anyways, so this is not rebuttal.

the EU is in the final stages of a free trade agreement with the USA.
This would put us at a disadvantage as to trade with both the EU andThe USA
were we to go

Ah yes, TTIP. This is not good for Britain, by the way. Do you know that if TTIP goes through, big business will be able to sue the UK? Private healthcare providers would be able to sue the NHS (as it is a government-owned asset). We would have EVEN MORE red tape to get through, something the men at Brussels will be rubbing their grubby hands at.
Under TTIP, companies we would have weakened regulations in the job sector. This means that bosses can decrease employee wages without a problem. Thanks to the equalization of rules between the US and EU as part of the deal, the UK could be forced to relax regulations which could see the return of banned food products in Europe like chicken bleached with chlorine and growth hormones in beef. Mmmmm, healthy American food..
US citizens do not have the same level of protection for their private data as EU citizens, so e-commerce provisions under the deal could see the safety of your private data put at risk. I might actually kill myself if Comcast come over here.
And the £98bn/yr Europe would 'win' from this is a very overblown figure, also.
But the scariest thing is this:

Parts of the deal will only be unveiled once they're finally agreed by European Commission and US officials.

And yes, that's right, we don't get a say at all. Not even our MEPs do. How's that for democracy..

There are as many UK citizens living long term in the EU as there are other EU citizens living here. We can no expext them to be better treated than we treat them.
As a young man I lived an worked in Spain under Franco. The regulations at that time were difficult. I would not like to see a return of such restrictions, or the need for visitors visas for either us or other Europeans.

Why do people confuse UKIP with BNP policy? This doesn't mean anything. The immigration policy merely caps the number of people coming into the country.
 
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