Social Conservatism

[Rival]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

 

[rocala]

Social conservatism is no different to any other aspect of social life. It moves with the times.
Today's social conservatives do not support slavery, feudalism, witch burning or 5 year old kids working in coal mines. But, once upon a time they would have.

 

[Rival]

Social conservatism is no different to any other aspect of social life. It moves with the times.
Today's social conservatives do not support slavery, feudalism, witch burning or 5 year old kids working in coal mines. But, once upon a time they would have.

Not really what I'm asking though.

 

[rocala]

Not really what I'm asking though.

I used the historical context because yes, non social conservatives will often feel "morally superior". Don't you when you compare your beliefs to the conditions which I listed?

 

[Mindmaster]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

I've just clocked it up a notch...

I'm not against gay marriage, but any marriage outside of a verbal agreement between partners.

I'm not a racist, but I believe you have the right to preserve your culture and skin tone even if you are a white guy.

I'm not sexist, but I don't believe women deserve special status either. Identity politics are _garbage_ and wastes of time. We will continue to treat people by the merit they have as we have done in ANY point in history.

I, too, have been called all of these things in the past as you have by many - some of which live on this forum and you just have to be the better person. Their mental malfunction with being unable to discern the gradients and nuances of a subject don't reflect on _you_ personally. Leftism/Liberalism, in particular, tends to lead one to see the world in a dichotomy of absolutes: racist/not-racist, sexist/not-sexist, news/fake news, etc... After some inquiry, you will find in most cases that they've been taught these feel-good views are "right", but are completely unable to explain why other than to use the language of others. That's the first sign you're brainwashed, BTW... If your ideas are logical you should have arrived at them before being programmed via propaganda from the liberal media, educational system, and your local demographic. (the last one is big, and a sure sign no thinking is being done - they are just leaning on their clannish tendencies...) In any case, the left/liberals find it perfectly reasonable to use hate speech on others - that should tell you the ultimately quality of their ends. You literally can pick someone's political view if you find out where they live first in 99% of the cases.

You strike me as a very independent person, and that's healthy and not something to be frustrated with. Whatever conclusions you have arrived at will certainly not be final, as you are constantly learning. Get more sleep, don't worry about these guys. They're just on a bandwagon to nowhere, and the signs that liberalism is in its death throes are everywhere.

 

[Rival]

I used the historical context because yes, non social conservatives will often feel "morally superior". Don't you when you compare your beliefs to the conditions which I listed?

I don't feel superior l; I feel better informed. But this just seems like you are telling me 'Don't worry! One day your backwards beliefs will fade into obscurity too!' Which is exactly what I'm sick of hearing. It's robbing us social conservatives of a voice.

 

[Laika]

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options.

Pretty much agree with this. That's especially true if your talking about secular social conservatives who seem to have almost disappeared entirely. You don't get Conservative Atheists even if there may be evidence to support more "conservative" positions of through doubt on to the simplicity of the solutions. We need intelligent advocates of all political ideologies, but conservatives particularly appear to be in short supply for what is (comparatively) a mainstream ideology.

The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs.

Agreed. The so-called "left" is basically cannibalising itself because it hasn't got solutions to the current crisis. Instead we have Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn being treated as "radical" when they are old men with old ideas and whose radicalism consists in hiding on the backbenches of political parties who sold out to neo-liberalism. Rather than deal with the crisis in the left, we're haemorrhaging support to the far right. Despite one of the biggest economic and political crisis for almost a century, its the white nationalists, the alt-rights and pseudo-fascists who are winning. Simply calling people "racist", "sexist" or "homophobic" didn't work in the 60's and its not working now. its a real problem to shift the conversation away from what we oppose to what we support because we don't actually know anymore. they are anti-capitalist- but what exactly is the left now even for?

In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Certain forms of conservativism should make a come back in terms of trying to restore a level of intellectual quality to the debate and resisting the populism of the left (and the right). "elitism" has to stop being used as an insult if we are to actually trust and find experts with the knowledge to get us out of this mess. the people are being manipulated and controlled by "elites" who hide it behind a crass populism and libertinism of "given the people what they want" when they are really using propaganda to promote values that makes them easy to manipulate and surrender their own freedom.

In the long-run, democracies can only function when the people are informed and liberalism has become very corrosive to the intellectual foundations of free societies. we definitely need some smart conservatives to hold back the tide and preserve free thought, science and progress as human ideals from a possible totalitarian revival. we're not their yet, but its getting harder to see how we can avoid slipping into openly and aggressively authoritarian government.

 

[Laika]

You strike me as a very independent person,

lol. saying this whilst talking about propaganda and the media reminded me of this old cigarette advert.

 

[rocala]

Which is exactly what I'm sick of hearing. It's robbing us social conservatives of a voice.

Yes it is. That in my experience is how the process goes. There must be a limit though, I don't think change is ever all one way.

 

[Mindmaster]

lol. saying this whilst talking about propaganda and the media reminded me of this old cigarette advert.

Honestly, the far right is likely to fall into the traps as well but conservatives are more used to intense opposition to their views so they tend to behave a bit better in adversity. They do not tend to see opposition as some threat to their existence, so quickly, as the left commonly does. I usually don't hear right-leaners calling people any of these disparaging terms, and apparently the left thinks that is their divine right. If that sounds like a load of crap to you, well it does to me too , and I can never support it. That's why I feel liberalism is dead... You cannot preach love by preaching hate, basically... I wasn't born yesterday..

 

[bobhikes]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

I'm moderate and both conservatives and liberals at times do the same things to me. For the most part I write them off as close minded individuals.

 

[Laika]

Honestly, the far right is likely to fall into the traps as well but conservatives are more used to intense opposition to their views so they tend to behave a bit better in adversity. They do not tend to see opposition as some threat to their existence, so quickly, as the left commonly does. I usually don't hear right-leaners calling people any of these disparaging terms, and apparently the left thinks that is their divine right. If that sounds like a load of crap to you, well it does to me too , and I can never support it. That's why I feel liberalism is dead... You cannot preach love by preaching hate, basically... I wasn't born yesterday..

I feel roughly the same. all the changes of 2016 with Trump and Brexit shook my up quite alot. I'm a bit conservative in that I don't think debates should be won by who shouts loudest but by who has the better argument. The saturation of the whole political conversation by propaganda is ultimately a really bad thing and its getting hysterical (and hard not to be sucked into it). The hypocrisy and nihilism of the college campus left is a massive turn off and I don't really want political correctness. Its more like I want a level of civility that people can agree to disagree and realise that there are more important things in life. things just keep get being taken out of proportion and you don't really know whats going on anymore because its the media narrative that shapes it.

p.s. on the subject of "liberalism is dead" you may like this book. I read it a few months ago and it did make me feel more comfortable opposing political correctness, "liberal guilt" and the excesses of the "left".

 

[In_Deepthought]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

Hi,

As a none believer and a UK citizen believe that my views in favour of gay marriage and abortion although i am neither gay or a women shows that the religious teachings are not valid today as there are more people with the opinion that the public should be making its mind up about its own society and not base it on 2000+ year old teachings.
Gone are the days that women are mentally inferior to men and therefore they must not be able to choose what is right for there own bodies. As a man no one tells me whether I can or cant have a vasectomy so why should a women not be able to choose to have an abortion or not. Of course the sticking point is if a couple have different opinions therefore ultimately it needs to be someones choice therefore it must be the women.
Of course certain laws have come from religion" though shalt not murder etc", but this has been broken by believers and not believers and the various religions all having committed this religious law even mosses .

One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens; and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people.

He looked this way and that, and seeing no one he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. (Ex. 2:11-12)

Of course you may say this was done before he got the 10 commandments therefore it was OK to do that !!

Liberalism is the idea of being able to live together in peace and harmony in my mind however while religion is still spouting things like gays are evil and sinful this helps no one.

Being gay is not a choice a proven fact, just like being born with black, blonde or ginger hair the choice is not yours you cannot choose who you are attracted to.
Once you accept that fact liberalism becomes easier to understand, the people that wrote the bible, quaran and the torah failed to understand these scientific facts so made the wrong assumptions and wrote them down.

Why is it so wrong that I as an atheist accept your religion and your right to practice however absurd i think it is but when jesus preached about turning the other cheek religious people find that so hard to do ?

 

[PureX]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

It may be worth your while to consider these issues and labels more carefully. "Conservatism" refers to the social and political agenda of conserving the status quo. Most wealthy and powerful people in a society tend to be the conservatives because they want to maintain and grow their wealth and power, and because it has been the current laws, practices, and social ideals that have enabled them to become wealthy and powerful, and to hold onto their wealth and power. So these are the people that naturally want to "conserve" those laws, practices, and social ideals. Thus, they want to "conserve the status quo". They, and those who's well-being is directly tied to them, are the "conservatives" in society.

When one becomes conservative because they want to maintain some form of religious or moral status quo, it's often for a similar reason. That is they see themselves as members of a kind of righteous elite based on their religious or moral ideology and they want to maintain that status by maintaining their religion's moral dominance within their society. So they become religious "conservatives", trying to maintain the religious status quo.

In both these instances, as the conservative elite gain and hold on tighter to their positions of wealth and power, or their illusions of moral superiority, they are depriving everyone else of access to these assets. And those being deprived will naturally resent and resist this deprivation. So that as the wealthy become more wealthy and more powerful, and more conservative of their wealth and power, they deprive everyone else of the security and opportunities that wealth and power affords, Society becomes contentious, and unstable, and may eventually collapse. And the same sort of thing happens with moral and religious conservatism. As the moral/religious elite gain in their ideological hold over the rest of society, the rest of society begins to resent their oppression. And they will eventually fight back. And I think this is what you are seeing in the rise of social liberalism. People have grown weary of a religious/moral elite that seeks always to maintain the illusion of it's own moral and religious superiority at the expense of everyone else, and particularly of anyone who dares to think or behave outside the dictates of this moral elite. And this resentment is only being exacerbated by a similar oppression coming from the wealth and power elite as they, too, work diligently at conserving their own advantages.

Conservatives rarely see themselves for what they really are, or for what they actually are doing to everyone else as they seek to increase and hold onto their elite positions within their society. So they can't understand why their own societies turn against them even when it's their own selfish conservatism that is forcing that reaction.

 

[Jumi]

My own experience is that arts and humanistic sciences tend to so called left-wing. Natural sciences are more center. Engineering and business are more so-called right-wing. All of them are pretty international these days.

 

[Stevicus]

To me, terms like "liberal" and "conservative" refer to one's economic views more than anything else.

When it comes to "social liberals" and "social conservatives," it's a completely different spectrum which can exist independent of one's views on economics.

In my opinion, most of the social issues in question would not even be an issue if there was true economic justice in our society. That's the real underlying issue.

I wouldn't take any of the labels and neologisms all that seriously. They're an appeal to emotion more than anything else. What matters more is the substance and depth of the actual arguments one makes to support one's position, whatever it may be.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

Nah, don't agree Rival, the conservative right are still very much alive and kicking; don't forget we are governed by the Tories in coalition with the DUP, a highly conservative party with religious leanings. The popular press remains overwhelmingly right wing, no fear of you being bound and gagged. You are free to express your views, so what if people make accusations? Explain your reasons for those views, if the person doesn't like them so what? I've always been a lefty liberal type, being called names and having assumptions made about me is something I have to deal with as well, it is a problem when you over generalise and pigeon hole people into "types".

I do agree that people should think things through as an individual, not "adopt" a raft of views because they have decided to identify with a particular group (yes, I'm talking to you religion!). I oppose your views on gay marriage, I'm an atheist , why would I care if two men or two women want to get married? Not doing anyone any harm are they? I agree we should invest more in immigration control, in terms of monitoring the borders, but generally speaking immigration doesn't keep me awake at night. This country is founded on immigrants, and who is going to do all the poorly paid menial jobs if not the immigrants? I voted "Leave" in the Brexit vote by the way, not because I thought it might keep out those 'damn immigrants' but because I see the EU as a failed economic experiment. The Remain camp couldn't come up with convincing economic reasons to stay in could they? So what pigeon hole does that put me in? Labels are overrated and sometimes unhelpful I find.

It used to be illegal to be gay in the UK, it used to be legal to refuse someone employment on racial grounds. So times have changed, for the better I'd say, but you are free to be a "conservative" and express your views, as a Tory or as a member of the EDL if you choose. The country may have become more liberal over time, but in a democracy the majority get their way, you just have to fight your corner and convince others you are right.

Edit: I realise I cautioned against pigeon holing people into "types" after calling myself a "liberal lefty type", but you know what I mean!

 

[Revoltingest]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

It's tempting to demonize the opposition, in preference for discussing positions on the issues.
But I do my best to be civil & tolerant of you knuckle walking fundamentalist reprobates.
And I appreciate your reciprocation....kindness towards us slavering amoral heathens.

 

[Mindmaster]

I feel roughly the same. all the changes of 2016 with Trump and Brexit shook my up quite alot. I'm a bit conservative in that I don't think debates should be won by who shouts loudest but by who has the better argument. The saturation of the whole political conversation by propaganda is ultimately a really bad thing and its getting hysterical (and hard not to be sucked into it). The hypocrisy and nihilism of the college campus left is a massive turn off and I don't really want political correctness. Its more like I want a level of civility that people can agree to disagree and realise that there are more important things in life. things just keep get being taken out of proportion and you don't really know whats going on anymore because its the media narrative that shapes it.

p.s. on the subject of "liberalism is dead" you may like this book. I read it a few months ago and it did make me feel more comfortable opposing political correctness, "liberal guilt" and the excesses of the "left".

I tend to agree that the nihilistic behaviors of the left/liberalism tend to sour the taste. It started off on a good note, but like all things if you consume too much of it, it will make you sick. It used to be about great things like equality to asking for tolerance of radical ideologies and weakening our security so we were more vulnerable. I regret only that both my parents weren't in the grave before they started going full-tilt. My mother still votes blindly Democrat no matter what they do, but she is probably used it being a Catholic and all.

If you want to break all of the rules then read the new Milo book... It's good, even if you think Milo is over the top... It really is about this entire thread.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

You don't have to believe such views are still around in America. This statement pretty much applies to me, but only the opposite as I am not a fiscal conservative, social conservative, or Christian (of any sort).