Social Conservatism

[Shadow Wolf]

If you want to break all of the rules then read the new Milo book... It's good, even if you think Milo is over the top... It really is about this entire thread.

Is it? I seem to recall it was Milo's own "side" who kicked him under the bus.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

You have a voice... but so do your opponents. It seems like that's the thing you're complaining about.

You have no right to be regarded in a particular way by anyone else. When you oppose someone - or oppose the causes they care deeply about - expect to be seen by them as an opponent. There's no serious campaign out there to deny the rights of conservatives, so you're already getting better than you're giving.

And there are many issues where the political divide isn't just about values; it's about facts. On these issues - whether it's about climate change, the economic impact of Brexit, or the impact of immigration on crime - expect that if you contradict someone who has looked at the evidence and has a well-thought-out position, you'll just be dismissed as wrong.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Is it? I seem to recall it was Milo's own "side" who kicked him under the bus.

It was. Lol.

 

[Mindmaster]

Is it? I seem to recall it was Milo's own "side" who kicked him under the bus.

Nah, he was making some comments on a podcast that were misinterpreted. Anyway, if you are curious the intro to the book (which is free to read on Amazon) explains his side of the story better than I care to.

I don't think Milo needs help, or a side... I think he is powerful enough that he can stand on his own.

P.S. This really says it all - think what you want to about Milo:

• #1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Nonfiction > Politics & Social Sciences > Politics & Government > Specific Topics > Censorship
• #2 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Humor & Entertainment > Humor > Political
• #3 in Books > Politics & Social Sciences > Politics & Government > Specific Topics > Censorship

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nah, he was making some comments on a podcast that were misinterpreted. Anyway, if you are curious the intro to the book (which is free to read on Amazon) explains his side of the story better than I care to.

Yeah, it was the right-winged Conservatives, those on the "same side" as Milo, who walked up behind him and gutted him like Judas just after the regressive left slapped him in the face.

P.S. This really says it all - think what you want to about Milo:

Is an ad populum the best you have? If we go that route, The Secret is one hell of a great book that really will get you all of your life's desires.

 

[Lyndon]

I suggest next time you have to see a doctor in the NHS, you say; "I don't believe in socialized medicine because I'm a conservative, so I'll be paying my own way, thank you".!!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I suggest next time you have to see a doctor in the NHS, you say; "I don't believe in socialized medicine because I'm a conservative, so I'll be paying my own way, thank you".!!

She's not a fiscal conservative.

 

[Mindmaster]

I suggest next time you have to see a doctor in the NHS, you say; "I don't believe in socialized medicine because I'm a conservative, so I'll be paying my own way, thank you".!!

In that case, you should stop using your freedom of speech because you never have anything nice to say anyway.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would think Milo would be an example of the antithesis of this thread; the thread is about grievances over opposing parties/viewpoints, but Milo was dealt his biggest blow by his fellow Right-wingers.

 

[Mindmaster]

Yeah, it was the right-winged Conservatives, those on the "same side" as Milo, who walked up behind him and gutted him like Judas just after the regressive left slapped him in the face.

Is an ad populum the best you have? If we go that route, The Secret is one hell of a great book that really will get you all of your life's desires.

Better ad populum, than the ad nauseam you have offered me in return.

Milo was never supported by the mainstream right, and even though he flitted with them a bit that fact remains obvious. Secondly, I was making the point that his popularity backed the idea that he didn't need them to do well or have and impact. The achievement of being in pole position in one or more categories on Amazon supports this conclusion as well, considering how much material he's competing against. Arguing by popularity is incorrect, but it is not incorrect when you are attempting to demonstrate the popularity!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would think Milo would be an example of the antithesis of this thread; the thread is about grievances over opposing parties/viewpoints, but Milo was dealt his biggest blow by his fellow Right-wingers.

Even Milo hasn't been silenced (as evidenced by all the discussion in this thread of his new book).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Even Milo hasn't been silenced (as evidenced by all the discussion in this thread of his new book).

He hasn't, but it still stands his biggest attack was not from the Left, but rather from the Right. It's pretty much the opposite of the OP.

 

[Nakosis]

This might just be something I experience on RF and the people local to me, but I'm going to put this out there anyway.

Sometimes, to me, it feels as though social conservatism is not even part of political discourse anymore. It's either, you're liberal or a little less liberal and those are your options. Note I speak from the UK, where our resident 'conservative' party allowed gay marriage to pass and continues to approve mass immigration into this country, neither of which are conservative social policies. The left, it seems, have come up with 1,001 buzzwords to call people like me. Homophobe (for opposition to gay marriage), racist (for opposition to unbridled mass migration) and a whole slew of other slurs. In my experience, and of course it may just be mine, social conservatives were long ago kicked off our own platform and now our views are widely regarded as evil, morally backwards, whatever. It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

Please note, I'm not looking for a debate about gay marriage, abortion etc. I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice. I understand that in the US such beliefs may still be commonplace and so I am looking more for the UK/Euro view.

@Laika @illykitty

Thanks.

It's strategy, marketing. Most folks have neither the time nor desire to look too deeply at a issue, so if you can successfully demonize the opinions of your opposition you've won the battle for the hearts and minds of the masses.

It's lazy and not very intellectual but it works. If your opponent can position themselves on the moral high ground they can pretty much dismiss your arguments without ever having to actually address them.

I'm pretty much a moral nihilist. Morality is depended on your goals. However what some have advise is to attack their morals. Go after their moral high position and show the immorality of it. Get them questioning the morality of their own position.

It's fun to do this sometimes, attack someone else's moral high ground, but it's all just BS. It sophistry and the use of rhetoric.
21 Rhetorical Devices Explained

It's probably not the intellectual argument/discussion you are looking for. However if you want to get folks to actually listen to you, to see some value in your ideas, you have to be able to win the rhetorical arguments.

 

[Nakosis]

He hasn't, but it still stands his biggest attack was not from the Left, but rather from the Right. It's pretty much the opposite of the OP.

Sure, if you can successfully demonize your opponent, even their prior supporters will turn against them. You can shut them down completely without ever having to address their actual arguments.

 

[YmirGF]

It is frustrating that I feel I can't even engage in political conversation without being called this or that by people who seem to consider themselves morally superior.

In my posting, that reaction is a given, so I'm fairly well braced for it whenever it rears its cute little head. How to change this? I have no real ideas other than hold your ground and don't give into the general abuse of many popular terms that is denigration of such terms. And yes, you can almost taste the feeling of moral superiority and intellectual condescension.

 

[Laika]

I tend to agree that the nihilistic behaviors of the left/liberalism tend to sour the taste. It started off on a good note, but like all things if you consume too much of it, it will make you sick.

*thinks about Communism*

have you been reading my mind?

IIt used to be about great things like equality to asking for tolerance of radical ideologies and weakening our security so we were more vulnerable. I regret only that both my parents weren't in the grave before they started going full-tilt. My mother still votes blindly Democrat no matter what they do, but she is probably used it being a Catholic and all.

my parents hate Jeremy corbyn and the labour party... which is why they rejoined Labour in order to save it?

If you want to break all of the rules then read the new Milo book... It's good, even if you think Milo is over the top... It really is about this entire thread.

Should I mention my copy of Mein Kampf arrived through the post today?

 

[Erebus]

I am seeking opinions on how social conservatives are generally treated and if we have a voice.

You do have a voice but don't forget that social conservatives aren't a unified front. I could point out some of the big newspapers, such as the Daily Mail and The Sun, as examples of social conservatives having one hell of a voice. That doesn't necessarily mean that they focus on the same issues as you though, or that you'd even agree if they did. I've mentioned to you my distaste for some of my fellow liberals, I'm afraid the same principles apply to conservatives.

So, what if you want to discuss your brand of social conservatism with people? Well, certain topics are always going to be emotionally charged and perspectives on them can be fiercely held. It's always been that way and always will be, the only difference is exactly which subjects are in vogue. This doesn't mean you can't voice your opinions but you've got to accept that some backlash is inevitable. Alternatively, you pick and choose who you discuss these things with.

Face to face, I generally only discuss my antinatalist leanings with people who I suspect would be more interested than outraged. Why? Well, to tell you the truth I've wasted my breath on people too often in the past. Some people will hold the contrary view to the extent that no middle ground is possible. For example, I think it would be unwise for you and me to argue over your views on gay marriage. It's just an area where I don't foresee either of us shifting.


So, in summary I would argue that social conservatism is alive and well and has plenty of opportunities to reach a wide audience. Individual social conservatives may face backlash depending on what they believe and who they tell. That's no different from anybody else though. Doesn't matter if you're liberal, conservative, centrist or apathetic. Somebody will think you're a prick.

 

[Rival]

It may be worth your while to consider these issues and labels more carefully. "Conservatism" refers to the social and political agenda of conserving the status quo. Most wealthy and powerful people in a society tend to be the conservatives because they want to maintain and grow their wealth and power, and because it has been the current laws, practices, and social ideals that have enabled them to become wealthy and powerful, and to hold onto their wealth and power. So these are the people that naturally want to "conserve" those laws, practices, and social ideals. Thus, they want to "conserve the status quo". They, and those who's well-being is directly tied to them, are the "conservatives" in society.

When one becomes conservative because they want to maintain some form of religious or moral status quo, it's often for a similar reason. That is they see themselves as members of a kind of righteous elite based on their religious or moral ideology and they want to maintain that status by maintaining their religion's moral dominance within their society. So they become religious "conservatives", trying to maintain the religious status quo.

In both these instances, as the conservative elite gain and hold on tighter to their positions of wealth and power, or their illusions of moral superiority, they are depriving everyone else of access to these assets. And those being deprived will naturally resent and resist this deprivation. So that as the wealthy become more wealthy and more powerful, and more conservative of their wealth and power, they deprive everyone else of the security and opportunities that wealth and power affords, Society becomes contentious, and unstable, and may eventually collapse. And the same sort of thing happens with moral and religious conservatism. As the moral/religious elite gain in their ideological hold over the rest of society, the rest of society begins to resent their oppression. And they will eventually fight back. And I think this is what you are seeing in the rise of social liberalism. People have grown weary of a religious/moral elite that seeks always to maintain the illusion of it's own moral and religious superiority at the expense of everyone else, and particularly of anyone who dares to think or behave outside the dictates of this moral elite. And this resentment is only being exacerbated by a similar oppression coming from the wealth and power elite as they, too, work diligently at conserving their own advantages.

Conservatives rarely see themselves for what they really are, or for what they actually are doing to everyone else as they seek to increase and hold onto their elite positions within their society. So they can't understand why their own societies turn against them even when it's their own selfish conservatism that is forcing that reaction.

Literally none of this is why I'm a conservative. I'm poor, I'm on welfare, I can't find a job, I used to be a very socially conservative atheist and I'm not conservative because of my faith, my dad is a pig farmer and so none of the above applies to me.

 

[PureX]

Literally none of this is why I'm a conservative. I'm poor, I'm on welfare, I can't find a job, I used to be a very socially conservative atheist and I'm not conservative because of my faith, my dad is a pig farmer and so none of the above applies to me.

So what is it, then, that you want to be conserved? And why?

 

[Rival]

So what is it, then, that you want to be conserved? And why?

I am a social conservative in the sense that I oppose abortion, mass migration, gay marriage, strip clubs etc. There are so many labels for things these days.