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Social Darwinism

uberrobonomicon4000

Active Member
You'll notice I said "access to education" which is not what he supported. He supported only the "smartest" getting a good education. Never mind that "smartest" in that time would strongly be "had enough wealth to not have to work all day as a child."
[FONT=&quot]"He did[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]not believe in the public school system. His major criticism of the school[/FONT][FONT=&quot] system was that it did not prepare children to live in society.[/FONT] "

Also, if you would have read the second part to that you would realize why he didn't agree with public systems. Why do you think people are pushing for educational reform today? As he stated, it doesn't prepare people to live in society.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
[FONT=&quot]"He did[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]not believe in the public school system. His major criticism of the school[/FONT][FONT=&quot] system was that it did not prepare children to live in society.[/FONT] "

Also, if you would have read the second part to that you would realize why he didn't agree with public systems. Why do you think people are pushing for educational reform today? As he stated, it doesn't prepare people to live in society.
I read that. It still upholds my point that he did not support access to education which is what brings equality. Only the smartest kids deserved good educations in his opinion.

Social Darwinism doesn't support equality it maintains the status quo of inequality, possibly allowing a few outliers to be brought up, but generally the poor stay poor. Particularly in his time when the poor stay uneducated because they have to work, not study. Frankly, that's what happens now. The poor stay poor because they go "work" often selling drugs rather than go to school, because there's no father in the home because oh look, cycle of prison and poverty.
 
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uberrobonomicon4000

Active Member
I read that. It still upholds my point that he did not support access to education which is what brings equality. Only the smartest kids deserved good educations in his opinion.

Social Darwinism doesn't support equality it maintains the status quo of inequality, possibly allowing a few outliers to be brought up, but generally the poor stay poor. Particularly in his time when the poor stay uneducated because they have to work, not study. Frankly, that's what happens now. The poor stay poor because they go "work" often selling drugs rather than go to school, because there's no father in the home because oh look, cycle of prison and poverty.
Social Darwinism (Spencer's studies) suggest nothing of what you are talking about. Either you didn't read any of it or you just picked out one piece of information and decided to go on an all out assault against it. They wanted people to be educated and have a better life. They didn't believe ( notice the word believe ) in charities or a lot of things for that matter, but they doesn't mean they were against them because they weren't. They just thought it would hold back a people from reaching their full potential.

Equality isn't something that is handed out on a first come first server basis. It is something many people and generations had to fight and struggle to get. Ignoring history and Social Darwinism is equivalent to ignoring evolution itself and saying things don't change. You just have an endless cycle, like you so kindly put it, of poor being poor because they never choose to do anything to get out of those conditions. Rome wasn't built in a day, America wasn't either. If you have a hard time understanding that then I don't know what to tell you.


[FONT=&quot]"Spencer was a noted non-conformist who detested authority and strongly[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]emphasized individualism. In Spencer's work "Social Status", he stated[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]that individual freedom was extremely important and that the government[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]should play a limited role in society especially in the schools. He did[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]not believe in the public school system. His major criticism of the school[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]system was that it did not prepare children to live in society. Instead,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Spencer believed in the private school system which competed for the[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]brightest students. Because of his belief in competition, conflict and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]struggle, Spencer felt that the most exemplary schools would eventually[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]acquire the best teachers and students. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Spencer, not surprisingly, stressed the importance of the sciences in the[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]schools. Learning should be a sensory experience where a student[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]interacts within his/her environment; a slow, gradual, and inductive[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]process. Children should be encouraged to explore and discover which[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]would allow them to acquire knowledge naturally. Education should also be[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]a pleasant experience for children with the least restrictions possible.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rote memorization and recitation were strongly opposed. A student should[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]only engage in those activities that would ultimately allow him/her to[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]survive in society. Special emphasis was placed on the physical,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]biological, and social sciences while English grammar and literature were[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]believed to be outdated.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Spencer became one of the major proponents of modern curriculum theory. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He created quite an uproar in England with his curriculum theory because[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the major focus of education continued to be the Latin and Greek languages[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]and literature. In his work "What Knowledge is of Most Worth?" Spencer[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]stated that this question needed to be answered before any curriculum was[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]chosen or any instruction commenced. Once this question was answered, it[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]should be made certain that the curriculum aid in advancing survival and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]progress."[/FONT]
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Nothing you said there really meant anything. "Rome wasn't built in a day" is utterly irrelevant.

I'm not ignoring Social Darwinism, but it is not the driving force for social justice. It is antithetical to equality by its nature. Just because a Social Darwinist proposed education reform does not make Social Darwinism good. Education reform and Social Darwinism can be discussed separately and should be as they're not really related.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
No it isn't. Well, maybe to those who want to ignore history and have no respect for it.
From wikipedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
Social Darwinism is an ideology of society that seeks to apply biological concepts of Darwinism or of evolutionary theory to sociology and politics, often with the assumption that conflict between groups in society leads to social progress as superior groups outcompete inferior ones.
The name social Darwinism is a modern name given to the various theories of society that emerged in England and the United States in the 1870s, which, it is alleged, sought to apply biological concepts to sociology and politics.[1][2] The term social Darwinism gained widespread currency when used in 1944 to oppose these earlier concepts. Today, because of the negative connotations of the theory of social Darwinism, especially after the atrocities of the Second World War (including the Holocaust), few people would describe themselves as Social Darwinists and the term is generally seen as pejorative.[3]
Social Darwinism is generally understood to use the concepts of struggle for existence and survival of the fittest to justify social policies which make no distinction between those able to support themselves and those unable to support themselves. Many such views stress competition between individuals in laissez-faire capitalism; but the ideology has also motivated ideas of eugenics, scientific racism, imperialism,[4] fascism, Nazism and struggle between national or racial groups.[5][6]
You cannot ignore social darwinisms bloody passed.
 

uberrobonomicon4000

Active Member
That isn’t due to Social Darwinism, it is due to people misinterpreting it and using it to suite their own political agendas.


Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg


Bellamy_salute_1.jpg


Kids for Education! The American Classroom before World War 1 & 2 giving the Bellamy Salute.


America and Germany were never alliances, in fact, Roosevelt pushed for peace agreements and got the Nobel Prize for doing so, but Nazis went to the extreme and created a war machine. Yeah, Americans may have greatly influenced other nations, but we in no way approved their use of violence to create some “superior race” and eliminate all other races off the face of the planet. America was going through a lot of social, economic and equality changes at the time. WW1 and WW2 actually set us back and prevented a lot of the progress we were making at the time.

images


Nazi Germany took our salute and used it for world domination and superiority.
I am not denying that its presence wasn't felt around the world. My only problem is with people that know little or nothing about it. People that think it’s fake, and is purely racist, because it’s not. It has actually helped push America towards more equal rights and opportunities.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Social Darwinism (Spencer's studies) suggest nothing of what you are talking about.

Both Spencer and Darwin were influenced by Malthus, and although Spencer was influential in what became known as Social Darwinism, his disagreements with Darwin were less about biological evolution and more about social. Spencer equated fertility rates with superiority. Unlike Malthus, he believed that social processes would generally, in one way or another, eliminate those "lower" races (emphases added):

For, necessarily, families and races whom this increasing difficulty of getting a living which excess of fertility entails, does not stimulate to improvements in production—that is, to greater mental activity—are on the high road to extinction; and must ultimately be supplanted by those whom the pressure does so stimulate. This truth we have recently seen exemplified in Ireland. And here, indeed, without further illustration, it will be seen that premature death, under all its forms, and from all its causes, cannot fail to work in the same direction. For as those prematurely carried off must, in the average of cases, be those in whom the power of self-preservation is the least, it unavoidably follows, that those left behind to continue the race are those in whom the power of self-preservation is the greatest—are the select of their generation. So that, whether the dangers to existence be of the kind produced by excess of fertility, or of any other kind, it is clear, that by the ceaseless exercise of the faculties needed to contend with them, and by the death of all men who fail to contend with them successfully, there is ensured a constant progress towards a higher degree of skill, intelligence, and self-regulation—a better co-ordination of actions—a more complete life.

(from Spencer's "A Theory of Population, deduced from the General Law of Animal Fertility")

Your oh-so-progressive Spencer also includes a neat little chart which nicely breaks down species division and mental faculties (emphasis added):

"Not alone from general survery of human progress—not alone from the greater power of self-preservation shown by civilized races are we left to infer such enlargement; it is proved by actual measurement. The mean capacities of the crania in the leading divisions of the species have been found to be—

legiononomamoi-albums-other-picture4049-spencer.jpg

showing an increase in the course of the advance from the savage state to our present phase of civilization, amounting to nearly 30 per cent. on the original size." (ibid).

They wanted people to be educated and have a better life.

Like Spencer did? Well, sure, in the Nazi sense, as he believed warfare motivated "evolution" (or fitness) in humans, and thus "The killing off of relatively feeble tribes, or tribes relatively wanting in endurance, or courage, or sagacity, or power of cooperation, must have tended ever to maintain, and occasionally to increast, the amounts of life-preserving powers possessed by men" (from Spencer's Study of Sociology)

And this is just sad in too many ways:

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Special emphasis was placed on the physical, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]biological, and social sciences while English grammar and literature were [/FONT][FONT=&quot]believed to be outdated.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Oh yes, he was quite concerned with education. But for whom, and what did these "sciences" entail? From Spencer's Education: Intellectual, Moral, & Physical (emphasis added):

"During every childhood every civilised man passes through that phase of character exhibited by the barbarous race from which he is descended. As the child's features- flat nose, forward-opening nostrils, large lips, wide-apart eyes, absent frontal sinus, etc.- resemble those of the savage, so too, do his instincts. Hence the tendency to cruelty, to thieving, to lying, so general among childrend." (pp. 121-22).

Without proper education, how would we prevent children from behaving like those ape-like "barbarous" races who are cruel and dishonest? You've picked quite the hero.
 
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uberrobonomicon4000

Active Member
Both Spencer and Darwin were influenced by Malthus, and although Spencer was influential in what became known as Social Darwinism, his disagreements with Darwin were less about biological evolution and more about social. Spencer equated fertility rates with superiority. Unlike Malthus, he believed that social processes would generally, in one way or another, eliminate those "lower" races (emphases added):
Yeah, if you mean those better adapted to their environment then I agree with you.

Like Spencer did? Well, sure, in the Nazi sense, as he believed warfare motivated "evolution" (or fitness) in humans, and thus "The killing off of relatively feeble trives, or trives relatively wanting in endurance, or courage, or sagacity, or power of cooperation, must have tended ever to maintain, and occasionally to increast, the amounts of life-preserving powers possessed by men" (from Spencer's Study of Sociology)

And this is just sad in too many ways:
This is just inaccurate and false. They would either learn to adapt or not adapt at all.
He didn't believe in exterminating those lesser adapted to their environment.
Oh yes, he was quite concerned with education. But for whom, and what did these "sciences" entail? From Spencer's Education: Intellectual, Moral, & Physical (emphasis added):

"During every childhood every civilised man passes through that phase of character exhibited by the barbarous race from which he is descended. As the child's features- flat nose, forward-opening nostrils, large lips, wide-apart eyes, absent frontal sinus, etc.- resemble those of the savage, so too, do his instincts. Hence the tendency to cruelty, to thieving, to lying, so general among childrend." (pp. 121-22).

Without proper education, how would we prevent children from behaving like those ape-like "barbarous" races who are cruel and dishonest? You've picked quite the hero.
So do you a support of people acting like tyrants and savage beasts or being educated and learning how to live and get along with one another?
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
This is so nonsensical.

Flat Earth people are responsible for map making! You're ignoring all the good about Flat Earth believers! Stop re-writing the history of map-making! We wouldn't have globes if it weren't for flat earthers!

I'm just going to make stuff up from now on since that's what we're doing.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
That isn’t due to Social Darwinism, it is due to people misinterpreting it and using it to suite their own political agendas.


Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg


Bellamy_salute_1.jpg


Kids for Education! The American Classroom before World War 1 & 2 giving the Bellamy Salute.


America and Germany were never alliances, in fact, Roosevelt pushed for peace agreements and got the Nobel Prize for doing so, but Nazis went to the extreme and created a war machine. Yeah, Americans may have greatly influenced other nations, but we in no way approved their use of violence to create some “superior race” and eliminate all other races off the face of the planet. America was going through a lot of social, economic and equality changes at the time. WW1 and WW2 actually set us back and prevented a lot of the progress we were making at the time.

images


Nazi Germany took our salute and used it for world domination and superiority.
I am not denying that its presence wasn't felt around the world. My only problem is with people that know little or nothing about it. People that think it’s fake, and is purely racist, because it’s not. It has actually helped push America towards more equal rights and opportunities.
Maybe you missed a part of the quote.
Social Darwinism is generally understood to use the concepts of struggle for existence and survival of the fittest to justify social policies which make no distinction between those able to support themselves and those unable to support themselves.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, if you mean those better adapted to their environment then I agree with you.

Have you actually read Spencer, Malthus, Darwin, Begehot, Lombroso, and other "founders" of what came to be called Social Darwinism?

Spencer (like most) posited a hierarchy among species and humans. However, unlike some (notably Darwin and Malthus), his was based on a fertility continuum. The lower the species, the more offspring it had. This "species" differentiation included humans. He specifically uses the Irish as an example of "lower" species because of the amount of children in a typical Irish family. Malthus believed that a lack of resources would hold back populations, in that overpopulation would mean not enough to go around and many would die, returning the overall population to some sort of equilibrium. Darwin had similar ideas, only for him it was selection and adaption.

Spencer, on the other hand, who actually coined the phrase "survival of the fittest", began with different ideas and although he incorporated some of Darwin's into his own model, but from his early work on population until the end, his model of "evolution" had much to do with fertility and rates of offspring: a species which isn't as "fit" has to produce more, because more offspring are likely to die. However, the "fitter" the species, the less likely to die, and thus the less the need for more offspring.

He extends this to humans, not just in the essay I linked to, but even more extensively in his The Principles of Biology (vol. 2). Here he uses the "African peasantry", the "French Canadians", and again the Irish to demonstrate that more offspring even among humans is a useful metric for how "high" on the hierarchy some group falls (and suprise, suprise, the English or "Anglo-Saxons" are thus more evolved than the other races).

And how does he deal with cases where his "rules" don't hold?

"It is likely to be urged that since the civilzed races are, on the average, larger than many of the uncivilized races; and since they are also somewhat more complex aas well as active; they ought, in conformity with the alleged general law, to be less proflific. There is, however, no evidence to prove that they are so: on the whole, they seem rather the reverse"

Contrary evidence! A whole theory threatened! But wait, there's more! All this can be explained:

"The reply is that were all other things equal, these superior varieties of men should have inferior rates of increase. But other things are not equal; and it is to the inequality of other things that this apparent anomaly is attributable."

And what, you might ask, does Spencer posit as the reason behind why the superior peoples like the English don't fit into his population/evolution model? The answer is...food.

"There is the difference in amount of food. Australians, Fuegians, and sundry races that might be named as having low rates of multiplication, are obviously underfed." He goes on about food at some length, but in such a way that one wonders how he can use his original metric (fertility rates) as an indicator when it doesn't hold most of the time (the Irish have more offspring and are inferior despite poverty, while the Australians and "sundry races" are also inferior, but the lack of food means they don't have more offspring).

More importantly, however, (as this is where the "social Darwinism" component comes in) is that for Spencer, "The survival of the fittest must nearly and always further the production of modifications which produce fitness, whether they be incidental modifications, or modifications caused by direct adaption." (from volume of his Principles of Biology).

In other words, you don't need random mutations producing adaptive characteristics. And this is especially true with humans, according to Spencer. And as we know (thanks to Spencer's ironclad logic) what consitutes superiority, we can ensure it ourselves. For humans, intelligence is what matters. Before, wars kept the population in check and meant bigger, stronger people triumphed. But now human evolution is all about brain power. So how will population be held in check?

"Hence the particular kind of further evolution which Man is hereafter to undergo, is one which, more than any other, may be expected to cause a decline in his power of reproduction."

Great. So, less children, obviously, because the fewer offspring a species requires to continue means the more "adaptive" it is. But what's going to cause humans to have fewer children? Brain power!

"As, even when relieved from the pressure of necessity, large-brained Europeans voluntarily enter on enterprises and activities which the savage could not keep up even to satisfy urgent wants; so, their still larger-brained descendants will, in a still higher degree, find their gratifications in careers entailing still greater mental expenditures."

So Europeans will keep on getting smarter, but not decrease the activities required to sustain them even after they are no longer required. They'll want to do more, and while they're at it have less children. But what if this doesn't happen, or what if it could happen faster? IT CAN! Yes, ladies and gentlemen, for only $19.99 and a little genocide, you can grow stronger, faster, better, because

"mankind cannot but continue to undergo changes of environment, physical and moral, analogous to those which they have thus far been undergoing. Such changes may eventually become slower and less marked; but they never cease. And if they never cease, there can never arise a perfect adaption of human nature to its conditions of existence." (the environment is always going to be changing, in other words, which means humans need a new way to adapt that allows them to do so in spite of their environment or regardless of it).
"Hence though the number of premature deaths may ultimately become very small, it can never become so small as to allow the average number of offspring from each pair to fall so low as two."

So we can't expect external changes to bring about perfection, but we can limit how many offspring humans have. But Spencer has just spouted on and on about how the Irish, the Australians, and all the other "savages" out there seem to multiply with or without food, so how are we going to ensure population is stable and yet also ensure that humans (well, Europeans at least, or rather Anglo-Saxons and maybe some others) will continue to have bigger and bigger brains?

No problem:

"Changes numerical, social, organic, must, by their mutual influences, work unceasingly towards a state of harmony- a state in which each of the factors is just equal to its work. And this highest conceivable result must be wrought"

All we have to do to maintain "equilibrium" is to have the right social changes and so forth. But what kind of "social changes"? Spencer's 2 volume work on "biology" doesn't provide much detail here. However, other works, such as his Man Versus the State give us all the detail needed. For example, what's to be done about those like the Irish or even the lower-class English who lack money and means?
(emphasis added)
"'They have no work', you say. Say rather that they either refuse work or quickly turn themselves out of it. They are simply good-for-nothings, who in one way or another live on the good-for-somethings-- vagrants and sots, criminals and those on the way to crime, youths who are burdens on hard-worked parents, men who appropriate the wages of their wives, fellows who share the gains of prostitutes; and then less visible and less numerous, there is a corresponding class of women."

Time to pay attention, folks, because here's where Spencer brings it all together:

"social arrangements which retard the multiplication of the mentally best, and facilitate the multiplication of the mentally worst, must be extremely injurious"

So we make sure only the superior people reproduce? That reminds me of some german fellow...Whister? Hilster? Hitler? Something like that.

To his credit, however, while later Social Darwinists favored "social arrangements" far more extreme than anything Spencer would have approved of, he himself believed that all one needed was to let the poor, the mentally ill, the handicapped, etc., to just suffer and die either by starvation, execution, disease, etc. You don't need actual genocide, says Spencer, because it will happen on its own as long as we don't interfere with "that natural process of elimination by which a society purifies itself." (from Spencer's Study of Sociology). As long as we supply prisons rather than places for the homeless, executions rather than treatment for the mentally ill, and starvation for the poor rather than welfare, the "lesser" people will die out on there own.

Yep, he was a real progressive, that one.


This is just inaccurate and false. They would either learn to adapt or not adapt at all.
Have you read his stuff? How would they "adapt"? Are the paralyzed going to be able to walk all of a sudden? Poor children receive manna from heaven?

He didn't believe in exterminating those lesser adapted to their environment.

Right. He just wanted to ensure that nothing was in place, from mental wards to welfare, to care for anybody (even children) who needed it. That way, the "lesser" people would die on their own.

So do you a support of people acting like tyrants and savage beasts or being educated and learning how to live and get along with one another?
You added "beasts". He wasn't talking about "beast" but about lesser species of humans. They were "savages" because they weren't elite Europeans. As for education, you show me where Spencer wrote about offering education to people who couldn't afford it.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I see "social darwinists" are still ignoring genetics and what evolution actually is. :rolleyes:

Perhaps they could provide one gene they would choose to see either spread or removed from the population and how it could feasibly be done?

And remember "poor" isn't a genetic trait.

wa:do
 

uberrobonomicon4000

Active Member
@LegionOnaMaMoi

His ideas might seem extreme to some and not so much to others. He wasn’t a progressive. All he is saying is if the less fit can’t survive they won’t and if they can then they will. Now, if you apply that to the era then you will see how it could have easily influenced and motivated those less fit to push for changes in a progressive way. That is when progressive movement made its way into politics at the time Social Darwinism was sweeping across many areas (countries). It is like a cause and effect type of thing (causality). That is all I was saying. Depending on the circumstances and social pressures it could have been seen differently in different areas of the world.

If you want to read some actual peer-review articles on Herbert Spencer then here is a site.

You can find everything you want to know about his moral philosophy and religious views here.

I see "social darwinists" are still ignoring genetics and what evolution actually is. :rolleyes:

Perhaps they could provide one gene they would choose to see either spread or removed from the population and how it could feasibly be done?

And remember "poor" isn't a genetic trait.

wa:do
If they wanted any one gene to be removed it would have been the stupid gene. They wanted society to be filled with brighter intellectuals, better education and less stupidity. I'm sure a lot of people could agree with that.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
If they wanted any one gene to be removed it would have been the stupid gene. They wanted society to be filled with brighter intellectuals, better education and less stupidity. I'm sure a lot of people could agree with that.
There is no such thing as "the stupid gene"... care to try again?

If you want to show that your position has any basis in reality rather than in make believe then you need to do better than that.

How would you ever go about dealing with a subjective measure like "intelligence" that has no single genetic marker... is highly influenced by eppigenetic factors like diet and the presence of things like heavy metals in the mothers blood during gestation not to mention post natal factors like noise pollution, stress and educational environment?

Intelligence isn't about breeding... I want a gene that can be selective breed for or against.

wa:do
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@LegionOnaMaMoi

His ideas might seem extreme to some and not so much to others. He wasn’t a progressive. All he is saying is if the less fit can’t survive they won’t and if they can then they will.

How on earth do you know what he is saying when you haven't read him?


If you want to read some actual peer-review articles on Herbert Spencer then here is a site.

I don't need to go to an encyclopedia which happens to have an editorial board and to use (possibly) referees to get peer-reviewed studies. If you want to read some actual peer-reviewed articles, try JSTOR, Academic Search Complete, ProQuest, Project Muse, or a number of other databases which grant access to peer-reviewed journals not encyclopedia articles. And if you don't have access to these databases (that is, if you have to pay for the articles/studies you find), I'd be more than happy to use my access to make them available to you.
 

uberrobonomicon4000

Active Member
There is no such thing as "the stupid gene"... care to try again?

If you want to show that your position has any basis in reality rather than in make believe then you need to do better than that.

How would you ever go about dealing with a subjective measure like "intelligence" that has no single genetic marker... is highly influenced by eppigenetic factors like diet and the presence of things like heavy metals in the mothers blood during gestation not to mention post natal factors like noise pollution, stress and educational environment?

Intelligence isn't about breeding... I want a gene that can be selective breed for or against.

wa:do
So you think the RGS14 gene (the dumb gene) is something that is just made up?
How on earth do you know what he is saying when you haven't read him?

I don't need to go to an encyclopedia which happens to have an editorial board and to use (possibly) referees to get peer-reviewed studies. If you want to read some actual peer-reviewed articles, try JSTOR, Academic Search Complete, ProQuest, Project Muse, or a number of other databases which grant access to peer-reviewed journals not encyclopedia articles. And if you don't have access to these databases (that is, if you have to pay for the articles/studies you find), I'd be more than happy to use my access to make them available to you.
No, that's fine. I will stick to my references and you can stick with yours. Thanks though. :D
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, that's fine. I will stick to my references and you can stick with yours. Thanks though. :D
What are your references? So far, you linked to an undergraduate's paper on Dr. Barger's History of American Education Web Project (Julie Ann Keb's paper "Herbert Spencer: Social Darwinism in Education" with a total of 4 references which aren't linked to anything written in the paper) and an encyclopedia entry (which gives references and further reading, many of which I've read, and some of which I've quoted here). How does that constitute anything at all significant such that you can claim to have "references" at all?

Have you read Spencer's work? Or Darwin's? Have you read any academic books or peer-reviewed studies (not encyclopedia entries) on either Spencer or Social Darwinism? Apart from an undergraduate's paper on a web site and an encyclopedia article, upon what are you basing you ideas?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
So you think the RGS14 gene (the dumb gene) is something that is just made up?
Congratulations you found an actual gene! :clap

Now, do you know what this gene does in humans? The report is only on mice. What is the human copy of the gene like? Is it expressed in the same places and in the same manner as in mice? Are there variant alleles of this gene and if so what if any difference in function to they promote?

You must also realize that this gene works in combination with other key protein signaling genes and that just removing it could well damage other systems in the brain of humans. ;)


Here is the biggest flaw in your choice... Every single human has this gene... how do you propose to remove it from the entire human population? This gene isn't linked to stupidity in humans (again, WE ALL HAVE THIS GENE). :cool:

wa:do
 
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