Socialism vs Capitalism

[icehorse]

You can't sell me that bill of goods which says only socialists
can define it, & that the dictionaries are all wrong.

I for one am not saying that. But I'm curious to know whether we're using a strict dictionary definition or more of an "in practice" sort of definition. If we're being strict, then it might be that there are no true socialist nations as of 2018. But "in practice" many would say that Scandinavia has several socialist states.

Nothing nefarious or evasive going on from me, just trying to clarify.

 

[Revoltingest]

I for one am not saying that.

No accusations directed at you.
Mostly, the objects of that criticism aren't even in the thread....yet.

But I'm curious to know whether we're using a strict dictionary definition or more of an "in practice" sort of definition. If we're being strict, then it might be that there are no true socialist nations as of 2018. But "in practice" many would say that Scandinavia has several socialist states.

Nothing nefarious or evasive going on from me, just trying to clarify.

I'll go with the common dictionary definition based upon the people owning/controlling the means
of production. This definition has the advantage of comparing socialist & capitalistic economies.
Even if there is some mixing, an economy can usually be classed as one or the other.

 

[icehorse]

No accusations directed at you.
Mostly, the objects of that criticism aren't even in the thread....yet.

I'll go with the common dictionary definition based upon the people owning/controlling the means
of production. This definition has the advantage of comparing socialist & capitalistic economies.
Even if there is some mixing, an economy can usually be classed as one or the other.

Ok, fair enough - so as far as I know, no country would currently qualify as "socialist" and so the whole conversation is comparing a reality to a hypothesis, correct?

 

[Revoltingest]

Ok, fair enough - so as far as I know, no country would currently qualify as "socialist" and so the whole conversation is comparing a reality to a hypothesis, correct?

I see a few qualifiers.

 

[sun rise]

I'll go with the common dictionary definition based upon the people owning/controlling the means
of production. This definition has the advantage of comparing socialist & capitalistic economies.

My wife owns the means of production, her business, and has no employees. Therefore she's running a socialist business for the benefit of the people, herself. I know. I know. But this can be extended.

A kibbutz in Israel, if they still exist, is a socialist organization in the middle of a capitalist economy. An "ESOP" is a socialist principle: workers own a part of a company.

On the other side, Cuba allows a few small businesses to operate which are capitalist businesses existing in a socialist country.

I just love those shades of grey. Don't you?

I would call the country one or another based on their laws and the dominant economic organization. Countries like China make this hard to do universally.

 

[Revoltingest]

My wife owns the means of production, her business, and has no employees. Therefore she's running a socialist business for the benefit of the people, herself. I know. I know. But this can be extended.

A kibbutz in Israel, if they still exist, is a socialist organization in the middle of a capitalist economy. An "ESOP" is a socialist principle: workers own a part of a company.

On the other side, Cuba allows a few small businesses to operate which are capitalist businesses existing in a socialist country.

I just love those shades of grey. Don't you?

I would call the country one or another based on their laws and the dominant economic organization. Countries like China make this hard to do universally.

I like it better when you just bark at me.

 

[Yerda]

I don't live there....or even visit there.
But it appears to be a case of government control (not entirely) over the means of production.
How Socialism ruined Venezuela

If you watch a news report from a city in Venezuela you'll see people wondering around shopping at private businesses. From what I can see it's very much the same as it's neighbours in South America in terms of economic ownership.

In N Korea and Cuba economic control and ownership is concentrated in the hands of a small insurgent sect. If the workers can't legally form a trade union and bargain collectively (much less control the means of production) in a given country it isn't socialist as far as I can tell.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you watch a news report from a city in Venezuela you'll see people wondering around shopping at private businesses. From what I can see it's very much the same as it's neighbours in South America in terms of economic ownership.

In N Korea and Cuba economic control and ownership is concentrated in the hands of a small insurgent sect. If the workers can't legally form a trade union and bargain collectively (much less control the means of production) in a given country it isn't socialist as far as I can tell.

Socialists might argue that a trade union is unnecessary under socialism.
(Sounds like a fiction to keep power consolidated for a few, eh.)
And yes, I've acknowledged that Venezuela isn't full blown socialism,
as exemplified by El Rey....
Our History-

 

[Yerda]

Socialists might argue that a trade union is unnecessary under socialism.
(Sounds like a fiction to keep power consolidated for a few, eh.)

I'm sure there are those who would.

And yes, I've acknowledged that Venezuela isn't full blown socialism,
as exemplified by El Rey (the chocolate company).

Fair enough.