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Sola Scriptura - heresy against God or man's institution?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Which book of the Bible? Which church? How is the church described as authority exactly?
All of the books.

And it was the combined churches now known as the Catholic and Orthodox churches (i.e. before the Great Schism).

Do you know the history of how all the books of the Bible got compiled into "the Bible" that we know today?

The Synod of Hippo reviewed all the candidate books and decided which to consider canon and which to not. The Bible you have today includes, say, Titus and not the Apocalypse of Peter because the Synod of Hippo decided that it should be so.

IOW, sola scriptura appeals to the authority of the Church.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, if christians say god wrote the bible, they aren't saying a being came down and scribbled his name. They're just saying that the authors of the bible were inspired by god and what the authors wrote (as god's reps), god wrote. So, in the christian's point of view, god actually "wrote" the bible.

I think it's more of a spiritual thing of god writing the bible and people's beliefs not a historical thing. Most christians know god didn't come down with paper and pen to write the bible. More say that the biblical authors were inspired. Just the "language" believers use determines how literal they take this. It doesn't change the theology nonetheless.

Whoever wrote hebrews must have been inspired by god in christian theology because spiritually, they are more concerned with the inspiration rather than the human authors.

Alright. This discussion is good for a new thread. So go ahead.

Cheers.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
All of the books.

And it was the combined churches now known as the Catholic and Orthodox churches (i.e. before the Great Schism).

Do you know the history of how all the books of the Bible got compiled into "the Bible" that we know today?

The Synod of Hippo reviewed all the candidate books and decided which to consider canon and which to not. The Bible you have today includes, say, Titus and not the Apocalypse of Peter because the Synod of Hippo decided that it should be so.

IOW, sola scriptura appeals to the authority of the Church.

Okay. Can you quote from the Gospel according to Mark?
 

McBell

Unbound
I could be wrong, but isn't it a valid claim?

You see the logic is, the Bible is the most authentic scripture for Christian doctrine, but institutions can be wrong, mislead or/and corrupt by nature, thus it is prudent to be Sola Scriptura. So the point is the claim of Sola Scriptura is not because the book tells them to be, but is just a natural deduction.

My point was that if the book has to tell you to be either Sola Scriptura or otherwise, where in the Bible does it tell you to bank on the institution, vis a vis, against Sola Scriptura.

Hope you understand my question.
Sola Scriptura is not Biblical.
No where in the Bible does it state "Scripture only" or "Bible only".

Thus making Sola Scriptura man made doctrine not supported by the Bible.

Now that does not mean Sola Scriptura is a bad idea.
Only that it is not Biblical.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
THE THEORY OF SOLA SCRIPTURA
Of course sola-scriptura is not taught in the bible.

If sacred texts show us anything historically, it is that in authentic religion where there is a personal relationship with God, individuals are given personal revelations by God which, if written down, were held sacred by religious adherents. Revelation is the original source of scripture and scripture, though incredibly insightful, is not the source of original revelations by God to individuals in that personal relationship to God. Many people who came to their knowledge of God, did so without any text or written documents at all.


SOLA SCRIPTURA IS A THEORY, NOT A PRACTICE
Individuals may read ONLY the particular bible they have (instead of a different bible) but they are still dependent upon their own levels of awareness, their own level of historical and linguistic abilities and upon the type and correctness of the text they have as well as their own religious biases in assigning personal meanings to their texts. And their personal meanings may differ and conflict with the meanings assigned to the same text by other individuals reading the same or similar versions of the same text. None of us are "sola scripturists" since we bring all of these characteristics to our reading and in assigning meaning to text.

None of us come to the text with the same text that the ancients had, with the ancient religious worldviews and ancient insights, and few of us come away with exactly the same personal meanings to the same text. When we affect the text and add to it's meaning then its meaning to us is no longer "Sola" scriptural.


THE ARBITRARINESS OF WHAT IS CONSIDERED SCRIPTURE
The specific canon one adopts is somewhat arbitrary since what it's considered scripture by various individuals has always differed in various times and various geographic locations. Different people in different places and times have had different canons.


ERRORS WITHIN TEXTS AND IN INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE
For example, 2 Tim 3:16 has been quoted multiple times as support of sola scriptura. The problem is that there are errors in text and in interpretation of this text.

KJV 2 Tim 3:16 is quoted as All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”
However this translation is incorrect since it is not what the any version of the actual Greek text says.
The most common greek version of this text says : Πασα γραφε Θεοπνευστοσ και ωφελεμοσ προσ διδασκαλιαν, προσ ελεγχον,....

It says : "All inspired texts [are] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, etc...." It does not tell us WHICH texts are inspired, merely that inspired texts are profitable.

Also, there is no verb for “given”, no past or perfected tense in the text. (The KJV is simply a flawed translation).

There are diffculties with simply saying that all inspired texts are useful for Christians. While one criteria for a text to deserve the title of “scripture” is that the text is a product of inspiration, the concept of personal detection of that inspiration together with the personal “valuing” of text as scripture is difficult to define in any objective manner.

For example, there is no objective “inspirometer” since revelation comes from God and his spirit, rather than from the text. While I can gain religious insight and understanding from a text or from an experience or from an observation, the deep and profound direct revelations to my spirit from the personal relationship I have with God comes from God and the holy spirit rather than from the text, from the experience or from the observations I make.


SCRIPTURE “CANONS” DIFFER IN ARBITRARY WAYS ACCORDING TO TIME PERIODS AND GEOLOGICAL LOCATIONS.
Often, the various inclusions vs exclusions in the various canons were often based on whether a text supported a specific theology. That is, a text “seems” to be inspired because it agrees with an individuals’ or a groups religious bias rather than based on an objective measurement of “inspiration”.

Luther rejects James, Erasmus accepts Esdras, Columbus believed in, quoted from, and used non-canonical Esdras’ description of the oceans in his determination of how much water he will navigate before reaching land. Galileos Daughter uses Hermas’ “wintertime” of the righteous in her letters to her Father. In this same way that these individuals all have their different Canons based on what inspired them, how does one then measure “inspiration” as a general rule for all individuals?


INTERPRETATION OF TEXT VARIES ACCORDING TO TRANSLATORS WHO CREATE THE BIBLES WE READ AND ACCORDING TO THE READERS APPLYING DIFFERENT MEANING TO THE TEXTS
It is obvious that most of the Christians on the forum read and study and use the bible. They debate the bible and it’s verses endlessly. They interpret the verses in the bible in hundreds (if not thousands) of differing ways. They use the bible and it’s verses to justify almost every doctrine and practice under the sun. Almost all of these conflicting and sometimes opposite (or at least “opposing”) doctrines are found by their proponents to be IN the bible; supported by scripture and are then called “biblical” by their proponents.



THE MODERN “WESTERN” BIBLES ARE NOT THE SAME TEXT AS THE EASTERN BIBLES NOR IS THE MODERN TEXT THE SAME AS THE ANCIENT TEXTS.
As @Katzpur said “Delivered" does not mean "preserved." Both modern and ancient translators themselves, tell us that the source text of their translations as well as the textual product of their translations have mistakes and errors.

While the theory of "Sola Scriptura" is an interesting philosophical point, I've actually never seen nor met anyone who actually was able to USE "sola scriptura" in it's form as a strict source for text or as a strict source for development of doctrine or religious understanding in my life.

And, neither has any other reader on this forum.

Clear
φυζτζω
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
I believe that is a jaundiced way of viewing it. We believe we are doing people a favor even though we are obligated by God to do it.
You believe you do people a favor and are obligated by God to do it "the way you do"
I believe I do people a favor and am obligated by God to do it "the way I do"
So, we both continue the way we believe is right. And we disagree, but that's okay,
Because it is a belief after all, and we both have freedom of Religion.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sola Scriptura is not Biblical.
No where in the Bible does it state "Scripture only" or "Bible only".

Thus making Sola Scriptura man made doctrine not supported by the Bible.

Now that does not mean Sola Scriptura is a bad idea.
Only that it is not Biblical.

Well, the flip side is also not biblical then right? Babe of them are biblical.

But you can infer through the Bible. In the Bible, 2nd Timothy, Paul is addressing the recipients and telling them to be convinced in what they have learned and that all scripture is God Breathed. Last bit of 2nd Timothy, chapter 3. It is not telling them that in the future there will be an Ecclesiast and to follow them for doctrine. It calling the recipient to the Bible, and what Paul says in it.

In Ephssians chapter 3 he is clearly saying that "in reading this you will be able to understand my insight". He is referring to his letter.

Matthew chapter four Jesus says that "People do not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God". It is calling you towards the word of God, not the word of an institution.

Psalm 19 says that Gods word is the clarity. Deuteronomy 30:11 says that what God commands you today is not too difficult to understand, neither is it far off.

John 5:39 says You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that in them you possess eternal life. Specific.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes you could.
Unfortunately, not a single one of your quoted verses makes the claim of Sola Scriptura...
Which is what you were asked for.

Well, the word Sola Scriptura is Latin. Thus if you want to find exact wording you will not.

But what you see in the Bible is repeated calling to scripture, but not repeated calling to a church that would be built on their own manner and faith centuries later.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In most of those cases, you need to make some very strange assumptions about what the author means by "scripture" in order to spin these verses into having anything at all to do with sola scriptura.
Yes, considering the synod of Hippo happened centuries later and which the author would not have known about. His phrase "All scripture is God breathed" is like saying "All writing is God breathed," so it is upon context and opinion to say its more limited than all writing. Is not all writing a product of the mind? It could very well be referring to all writings as God breathed unless the context eliminates it.

"What is Scripture" is another topic.
Most people never consider it, much. A lot of churches don't use the term 'Sola scriptura' but do claim the Bible as the final and complete scripture of God. I think its probably the same thing as Sola Scriptura.

The irony is noticing the protestants themselves calling this a heresy sometimes in discussion while also quoting patristic evidences when needed for doctrine, yet as I know the official position may conflict with some.
That does sound ironic.
 

McBell

Unbound
Well, the flip side is also not biblical then right? Babe of them are biblical.

But you can infer through the Bible. In the Bible, 2nd Timothy, Paul is addressing the recipients and telling them to be convinced in what they have learned and that all scripture is God Breathed. Last bit of 2nd Timothy, chapter 3. It is not telling them that in the future there will be an Ecclesiast and to follow them for doctrine. It calling the recipient to the Bible, and what Paul says in it.

In Ephssians chapter 3 he is clearly saying that "in reading this you will be able to understand my insight". He is referring to his letter.

Matthew chapter four Jesus says that "People do not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God". It is calling you towards the word of God, not the word of an institution.

Psalm 19 says that Gods word is the clarity. Deuteronomy 30:11 says that what God commands you today is not too difficult to understand, neither is it far off.

John 5:39 says You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that in them you possess eternal life. Specific.
it does not matter how many times you repeat them.
They do not support Sola Scritura.
 

McBell

Unbound
Well, the word Sola Scriptura is Latin. Thus if you want to find exact wording you will not.

But what you see in the Bible is repeated calling to scripture, but not repeated calling to a church that would be built on their own manner and faith centuries later.
If that is all the better you can do, there is no reason to take you seriously.
 
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