Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
It doesn't say whether she can recite her alphabet now or not.
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Soldier father waterboards his own daughter because she couldn't recite the alphabet.
- Thread starter dust1n
- Start date
It doesn't say whether she can recite her alphabet now or not.
dust1n
Zindīq
Alceste
Vagabond
All this talk about people that get disturbed in war, I somehow feel less sorry for them than I do the children of the area the war is being fought in. For if it screws up an adult who is trained and willfully went into the environment, how bad is it screwing with the civilians heads
.
Before anyone jumps on me, my Grandfather lives with me, and he is a decorated veteran of two wars, and spent 24 years in there. He suffers all the same things, and I am grateful for his service, but that is besides the point I am making.
I think more studies should be done in this area.
I'm not going to jump on you. It's our grandfathers who fought in WWII that we should be listening to. The wars we fight today are not a continuation of a noble tradition my grandfather (and possibly yours) shed blood for on the beach at Normandy. Today's wars are corporate mercenary ventures fought entirely for the benefit of a handful of unscrupulous capitalist overlords. My grandfather would not hesitate to tell you so, but we don't listen, do we? We just wave that flag, and wave it some more, and say what we're told to say. Think what we're told to think.
Agreed.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
My father was in Guadalcana WWII ( After landing on the island the U.S. fleet was ran off by the Japanese the marines had very little food, ammunition and no support. Up to this point we had lost every engagement with the Japanese ) and the Chosin Reservoir in Korean War (10,000 americans were attacked by 250,000 Chinese in -40 degree weather). Two of the worst battles the marines fought in. (I was born when he was 45) He got a silver and bronze star. He would scream in the middle of the night. Not like a normal human scream. It was real deep and sounded like it came from the center of his being it was so loud. After he died his War buddies told me all that he did. I believe he gave up some of himself for his country He had a good life. He was a loving father. He was never the same after the War. The dreams were with him till he died.
My father had a photo album from Guadalcana. Along with pictures of dead Japanese and his friends. I have a picture of my father playing cards. He looks so young and strong, yet there is a dead look on his face his eyes look like nobodies home. I am so proud of my father he gave so much.
My father had a photo album from Guadalcana. Along with pictures of dead Japanese and his friends. I have a picture of my father playing cards. He looks so young and strong, yet there is a dead look on his face his eyes look like nobodies home. I am so proud of my father he gave so much.
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There is no doubt that combat does leave an inedilible impression on a soldier. My husband said that frequently the ones on the front lines were either gung-ho about their duty or were severely disturbed. I volunteered as Family Readiness Group Leader for two years and spent enough time with other families to know that our problems weren't isolated.
To say that one is immune to the psychological impact of having blood on your hands is either borderline sociopathic or in deep denial. Many, many of these men and women need and deserve counselling for their service and their sacrifices.
To say that one is immune to the psychological impact of having blood on your hands is either borderline sociopathic or in deep denial. Many, many of these men and women need and deserve counselling for their service and their sacrifices.
kai
ragamuffin
I know you do.
kai
ragamuffin
All it takes is a certain kind of situation.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Wartime is a uniquely personal experience. War certainly always changes the participants and bystanders, but not all the changes are catastrophic - or even negative.
I think we tread on dangerous ground when we try to generalize too much in this area. Each soldier, airman, sailor, or marine is affected differently and carries different responsibilities, memories, and choices with them for the rest of their lives.
I have watched (and lived) the effects of military service on my immediate family all my life. My son served 18 months with an infantry unit in Iraq. The picture below breaks my heart - when I see the fatigue and stress on his face about midway through his tour of duty:
Now - two years later, here's the same guy (with his fiancee):
My son, who left for Iraq at age 19 - young, irresponsible, and frankly a very shallow person - is now much more compassionate, a much deeper thinker, and much more appreciative of what he has been given in life. He also understands the concept of sacrifice much more deeply. He's a better man.
He was in Iraq long enough to see the tide turn and to see the positive results of what they were doing over there - and that's made a big difference in his perspective and the way he has assimilated his experiences.
That being said, here's a poem he wrote about three months into his tour of duty - when the shock of the situation was fresh and the offensive was in full swing:
I think we tread on dangerous ground when we try to generalize too much in this area. Each soldier, airman, sailor, or marine is affected differently and carries different responsibilities, memories, and choices with them for the rest of their lives.
I have watched (and lived) the effects of military service on my immediate family all my life. My son served 18 months with an infantry unit in Iraq. The picture below breaks my heart - when I see the fatigue and stress on his face about midway through his tour of duty:
Now - two years later, here's the same guy (with his fiancee):
My son, who left for Iraq at age 19 - young, irresponsible, and frankly a very shallow person - is now much more compassionate, a much deeper thinker, and much more appreciative of what he has been given in life. He also understands the concept of sacrifice much more deeply. He's a better man.
He was in Iraq long enough to see the tide turn and to see the positive results of what they were doing over there - and that's made a big difference in his perspective and the way he has assimilated his experiences.
That being said, here's a poem he wrote about three months into his tour of duty - when the shock of the situation was fresh and the offensive was in full swing:
To Hell With Fear
Don’t ask me how things are out here
For you don’t want the truth,
This place where nineteen year old boys
Lose their grasp on youth.
For you don’t want the truth,
This place where nineteen year old boys
Lose their grasp on youth.
You want to hear a story
Told of heat and sand and fear
But even as I tell you this,
A story’s all you’ll hear.
Told of heat and sand and fear
But even as I tell you this,
A story’s all you’ll hear.
I can’t describe the way it feels
To feel you’re going to die
To wake and watch another night,
Never knowing why.
To feel you’re going to die
To wake and watch another night,
Never knowing why.
Can’t we forget the fear of death
There lurking every day?
Maybe just a little peace,
For sanity, we pray.
There lurking every day?
Maybe just a little peace,
For sanity, we pray.
The hatred shut behind the doors
Of houses that we pass,
Will take away from fragile sands
Inside the hour glass.
Of houses that we pass,
Will take away from fragile sands
Inside the hour glass.
And someday soon, not far from now,
A fire will come at us,
As missile flashes from a rooftop
Chip away at us.
A fire will come at us,
As missile flashes from a rooftop
Chip away at us.
And that is where you’ll find the fear
Erect and standing tall,
Basking in the brutish hate
That takes away from all.
Erect and standing tall,
Basking in the brutish hate
That takes away from all.
No matter where the missile points –
At us or back at them –
We can’t escape the fear inside
The hate that burns within.
At us or back at them –
We can’t escape the fear inside
The hate that burns within.
Some may find that fear is good –
A numbness that they can keep,
A reason behind killing men,
Excuses to find sleep.
A numbness that they can keep,
A reason behind killing men,
Excuses to find sleep.
But fear will keep some men awake,
Their eyes half closed at night,
A fear that fills their throat
And makes them flinch at sudden light.
Their eyes half closed at night,
A fear that fills their throat
And makes them flinch at sudden light.
Every man must conquer this
And do as soldiers do,
Killing shouldn’t bother us
As it may bother you.
And do as soldiers do,
Killing shouldn’t bother us
As it may bother you.
The moral status of the war
Should not be our concern.
Coming into contact,
We will let the hatred burn.
Should not be our concern.
Coming into contact,
We will let the hatred burn.
If the perimeter is breached
And you’re to kill a man
To hell with fear – grab his face
And kill him with your hands.
And you’re to kill a man
To hell with fear – grab his face
And kill him with your hands.
PFC Allen _______, US Army Airborne Infantry
Age 20
January 2007
Baghdad, Iraq
Age 20
January 2007
Baghdad, Iraq
No doubt about it - war leaves quite an impression.
dust1n
Zindīq
When I worked for a publisher, I had to edit about 500 poems for a particular solider. It was very obvious he did not have quite the experience your son did.
From my experience, between the two polarities of the effects of combat veterans: the model citizen, spouse, and parent versus the subject in the OP link.....there is a huge grey area where many veterans experience first hand the fragility of life and who also struggle with bloodshed on both the receiving end and as perpetrator.
Honestly, I think it's myopic to assume one way or the other that a returning veteran will exhibit only one of the two opposing traits. Most of them have been changed radically, and IMO nearly all of them need assistance at varying levels in transitioning back to civilian life.
In other words, I think it's more prudent to consider that huge grey area more so than diagnosing the returning soldier as either the model hero or the sociopathic monster who can't cope. Most soldiers find strengths they never thought they had at the same time silently having to come to terms with the ugly and horrific images of combat. It's much more complex because, well, they're human.
Honestly, I think it's myopic to assume one way or the other that a returning veteran will exhibit only one of the two opposing traits. Most of them have been changed radically, and IMO nearly all of them need assistance at varying levels in transitioning back to civilian life.
In other words, I think it's more prudent to consider that huge grey area more so than diagnosing the returning soldier as either the model hero or the sociopathic monster who can't cope. Most soldiers find strengths they never thought they had at the same time silently having to come to terms with the ugly and horrific images of combat. It's much more complex because, well, they're human.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Heck, as a military SPOUSE with zero actual combat experience, it was difficult to transition to civilian life.
There are huge differences between the military community and the civilian community. Throw in some actual combat and bloodshed and sure - there are going to be some difficult transitions.
I can only speak from personal experience and through my family's lives and legacies. Overall, I would have to say that military service has been a more positive than negative influence in our lives.
But that's just us.
There are huge differences between the military community and the civilian community. Throw in some actual combat and bloodshed and sure - there are going to be some difficult transitions.
I can only speak from personal experience and through my family's lives and legacies. Overall, I would have to say that military service has been a more positive than negative influence in our lives.
But that's just us.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Excellent Sundance Film Festival winner for anyone curious about the particular stresses of 21st century military families:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqIvlCSLzM
Grace is Gone.
By the way - CLINT EASTWOOD and his son wrote most of the songs on the excellent soundtrack. Whoduthunkit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqIvlCSLzM
Grace is Gone.
By the way - CLINT EASTWOOD and his son wrote most of the songs on the excellent soundtrack. Whoduthunkit?
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You're not alone. But I'm sure you knew that. I'm a former military wife. Twice, even.
I'll be sure to check out your link. Military life is full of extreme highs and lows. More drama than most things I did on stage. LOL
I think it's important to point out that combat veterans are just as human as the rest of us. It makes my husband feel uncomfortable being called a hero because he doesn't try to elevate himself above anyone else. But he also objects to being called a mindless drone of the "fascist regime".
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Mystic - I agree totally. I've seen my son get so embarrassed because someone tries to pay for his drink or his meal when he's out in public wearing his uniform.
He will always feel like it's his platoon leader - not him - who is/was the hero. His platoon leader was killed by a sniper in Iraq while delivering crayons to a school.
I wrote a letter to the family when I heard about this tragedy. I didn't find out till much later that they read this letter at their son's funeral. I was stunned, touched, and also embarrassed.
What a small gesture it was on my part - much too small. Here is the letter I wrote. Rereading it, I still can't see how it really gave anyone much comfort. But maybe that wasn't the point in reading it.
Saturday, May 05, 2007
Dear _______ Family,
Your son _____ was my son’s platoon leader. My son’s name is PFC _____ _______ and he is 20 years old. When I spoke with _____ this morning, he talked a lot about _____ and I thought you might want to hear what he had to say.
As you know, the 501st has lost a number of soldiers, and _____ knew several of them personally, but I have never heard the sorrow in his voice that I heard this morning as he talked about _____.
_____ told me that Lt. _____ was someone he really admired. He said that _____ had enjoyed his recent visit home so much – that he had talked about it and had really, really appreciated the time he got to spend with his family. He considered this past visit home to be a blessing. Those were the exact words Allen used, based on his conversations with _____. I know that phrase had to come from _____, because _____ wouldn’t generally say something like that.
_____ repeatedly said to me, “Momma, he was a great, great guy. He was my platoon leader, and I just can’t believe he’s gone. He was great. Just great.”
You know how young guys are – sometimes they aren’t eloquent, but believe me, I could tell by _____’s voice how much he admired _____. _____ is tough as nails. He doesn’t share grief readily. He and his entire platoon are grieving for your loss, and theirs.
Your son made a lasting impression on my son and I want you to know how much I appreciate _____’s leadership – and most of all, his kindness toward my boy.
My son's job now is to carry on the lessons your son instilled in his men. _____’s example of cheerful, giving leadership is what all young men should strive toward. Your son’s life was not wasted. This world is a better place because of men like _____ ________.
My prayers are with you and my family grieves with yours. God be with you through this sad, sad time.
My time spent as a military kid, wife, and mom is full of intense memories. I'll never forget how I felt when I first held my son in my arms after his 18+ months in combat. I was so worried then about how he would re adjust to "regular" life - and it WAS an adjustment for him. He needed some counseling and some time to assimilate all that he had experienced, into the fabric of his entire life.
I think that's the key -that we assimilate it rather than let it define our entire life. I think those who are able to do that are healthier mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
He will always feel like it's his platoon leader - not him - who is/was the hero. His platoon leader was killed by a sniper in Iraq while delivering crayons to a school.
I wrote a letter to the family when I heard about this tragedy. I didn't find out till much later that they read this letter at their son's funeral. I was stunned, touched, and also embarrassed.
What a small gesture it was on my part - much too small. Here is the letter I wrote. Rereading it, I still can't see how it really gave anyone much comfort. But maybe that wasn't the point in reading it.
Saturday, May 05, 2007
Dear _______ Family,
Your son _____ was my son’s platoon leader. My son’s name is PFC _____ _______ and he is 20 years old. When I spoke with _____ this morning, he talked a lot about _____ and I thought you might want to hear what he had to say.
As you know, the 501st has lost a number of soldiers, and _____ knew several of them personally, but I have never heard the sorrow in his voice that I heard this morning as he talked about _____.
_____ told me that Lt. _____ was someone he really admired. He said that _____ had enjoyed his recent visit home so much – that he had talked about it and had really, really appreciated the time he got to spend with his family. He considered this past visit home to be a blessing. Those were the exact words Allen used, based on his conversations with _____. I know that phrase had to come from _____, because _____ wouldn’t generally say something like that.
_____ repeatedly said to me, “Momma, he was a great, great guy. He was my platoon leader, and I just can’t believe he’s gone. He was great. Just great.”
You know how young guys are – sometimes they aren’t eloquent, but believe me, I could tell by _____’s voice how much he admired _____. _____ is tough as nails. He doesn’t share grief readily. He and his entire platoon are grieving for your loss, and theirs.
Your son made a lasting impression on my son and I want you to know how much I appreciate _____’s leadership – and most of all, his kindness toward my boy.
My son's job now is to carry on the lessons your son instilled in his men. _____’s example of cheerful, giving leadership is what all young men should strive toward. Your son’s life was not wasted. This world is a better place because of men like _____ ________.
My prayers are with you and my family grieves with yours. God be with you through this sad, sad time.
My time spent as a military kid, wife, and mom is full of intense memories. I'll never forget how I felt when I first held my son in my arms after his 18+ months in combat. I was so worried then about how he would re adjust to "regular" life - and it WAS an adjustment for him. He needed some counseling and some time to assimilate all that he had experienced, into the fabric of his entire life.
I think that's the key -that we assimilate it rather than let it define our entire life. I think those who are able to do that are healthier mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
dust1n
Zindīq
"In the police report, the girl told authorities that "Daddy was upset becuase she wouldn't say her letters" and that he then put her in the water.
"It was hot! The water was hot!" the girl told police, according to the incident report. "I told him I would say my letters then! My heart shirt got wet."
Tabor told authorities that "his purpose was to punish her by putting her in the water because he knows she is afraid of it and he wanted her to cooperate."
"She said her letters after that," Tabor told the cops, admitting that he had grown frustrated with the girl after practicing the letters for "approximately three hours."
...
His arraignment is scheduled for Tuesday, Feb. 16 in Thurston County Superior Court, according to the Nisqually Valley News.
The girl lived with Tabor, his girlfriend and several other children who belonged to the girlfriend. Included in the house was a 2-month-old baby boy Tabor had with his girlfriend.
Tabor's daughter had only been living with him for just two months, according to Stancil. A court ruled late last year that Tabor would split custody of his daughter with the girl's mother in five month increments. Tabor was to care for the girl for the first half of 2010, said Stancil.
...
According to a Joseph Piek, a spokesman for the Lewis-McChord base where Tabor is assigned, Tabor is a helicopter repairer.
Tabor was assigned to Joint Base Lewis-McChord in December 2006 and was deployed with his unit to Iraq for 15 months from May 2007 to August 2008.
Since posting bail, Tabor has been restricted to the base and is living in his unit's barracks, according to Piek."
Joshua Tabor Accused of Waterboarding Young Daughter - ABC News