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Some arguments for vegetarianism

Rin

Member
When people ask me why I am vegetarian, I respond vaguely with something like "for health/environmental reasons". I know that what they are actually asking is something more akin to "Why are you being so stupid?" so I make sure I don't mention anything about morality or I'll just confirm that thought before I've been given a chance to explain myself. They don't care so I don't elaborate and we manage to get along without offending each other.

However, it is frustrating to be asked this question so regularly and not be able to give an honest answer! Like most human beings, I like to express what I believe so I will do it here. Here is why I think we have a moral compulsion to be vegetarian (and more!):

I don't believe in an objective moral standard. I think if we encountered one, nobody would care anyway. We do things that are right because we feel deep down that they are right and we feel a bit sick on the inside when we do the things we know are wrong. The problem with this subjective morality is its tendency to get manipulated by outside sources or even just our immoral desires. For example, slave owners probably didn't feel sick on the inside because they were desensitised to what they were doing.

So how can we overcome these problems? I don't know! But sometimes we can detect inconsistencies in our own beliefs that reveal to us that at least two things cannot both be morally acceptable and then it is up to us to choose which one we must give up. Had slave owners analysed more closely the differences between themselves and slaves, perhaps they would have been faced with such a choice.

On to animals then. A few years ago, a cat was found dead near my house riddled with BB pellets. I remember feeling pretty sick upon hearing about that. But the thing is, most people feel pretty sick when they hear that too. I don't have much to say to those who don't but for those who do, what you have just experienced is an unwillingness to treat non-human life as mere objects. That means that you believe that some things are off the cards when it comes to animals.

But this is where the defeasibility of our subjective morality becomes problematic. If we think its wrong to shoot cats full of pellets for our own personal pleasure but not to kill cattle for food, then we have drawn a line. There wouldn't be a problem if we just didn't care about animals at all because then we could just draw the line at "anything goes" but are bleeding hearts don't let us, unfortunately. And this new line is much harder to draw for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, we don't know enough about ourselves to know how different we are from animals. If we adopt an "anything goes" attitude and bank on the hope that such a difference is large then we could find ourselves in the same position as the slave owner. Secondly, the "anything goes" attitude is the norm... we are socialised towards it. We cannot tell how much of that attitude is a genuine moral choice and how much is mere desensitisation to immoral acts.

These concerns are not definitive. But they don't need to be. Its not like we are faced with a moral dilemma. Abortion is a moral dilemma issue because there is potential harm to be sown on both sides. But vegetarianism is all about doing the least harm. It is the safe option. If it turns out that meat eating was alright and we can do with animals as we like, then vegetarians will not have caused any harm in the mean time. The same is not true for meat-eaters. The above concerns indicate that the rational course is to tread safely until, if and when, we know more and vegetarianism is clearly the path of moral safety.

So to sum up: People appear to have conflicted reactions to animal treatment. We have no definitive answers and our subjective morality could be wrong. Thus we are in a position that could not more clearly call out for a cautious morality. Vegetarianism is a position of least potential harm and thus fits the bill completely.

Thats just my two cents. Thanks for listening and letting me get that off my chest :).

P.S. There are of course plenty of benefits for your health and the environment if you are vegetarian but I would be lying if I said I cared about them nearly as much as I do about the moral benefits.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
My reasons for being vegetarian are entirely based on morality. I see animals as thinking, feeling, conscious individuals with the right to moral consideration. I could not allow myself to be responsible for the suffering and death of an animal. My reasons do not lie in the intellectual capacity of a species, but the experiences of that species. The only time I would kill an animal on purpose is if it is necessary for my own survival.
 
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Rin

Member
Madhuri said:
My reasons for being vegetarian are entirely based on morality. I see animals as thinking, feeling, conscious individuals with the right to moral consideration. I could not allow myself to be responsible for the suffering and death of an animal. My reasons do not lie in the intellectual capacity of a species, but the experiences of that species. The only time I would kill an animal on purpose is if it is necessary for my own survival.

*Veggie highfive* I think I agree with you very closely on this. Most vegetarians I know are not vegetarians because of morality. I think the "morality-strain" has been discredited to the point of it not being taken seriously which is a shame. I definitely agree that intellectual capacity is irrelevant and experience is very important. I think that most people are unable to conceive on the individuality of animals and instead see them as interchangeable to an extent that surely cannot be supported by genetics.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
*Veggie highfive* I think I agree with you very closely on this. Most vegetarians I know are not vegetarians because of morality. I think the "morality-strain" has been discredited to the point of it not being taken seriously which is a shame. I definitely agree that intellectual capacity is irrelevant and experience is very important. I think that most people are unable to conceive on the individuality of animals and instead see them as interchangeable to an extent that surely cannot be supported by genetics.

Scientists are realising more and more that animals have higher mental capacities than was previously -assumed-. It has become evident that the idea of animals being non-feeling, non-sentient creatures is rooted in Greek and Christian conception and has no bearing on reality. Some animals are even showing signs of empathy and culture.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
My reasons for being vegetarian are entirely based on morality. I see animals as thinking, feeling, conscious individuals with the right to moral consideration. I could not allow myself to be responsible for the suffering and death of an animal. My reasons do not lie in the intellectual capacity of a species, but the experiences of that species. The only time I would kill an animal on purpose is if it is necessary for my own survival.
Just out of curiousity, do you believe that we are morally obliged to abstain from meat simply because we are thinking beings? I ask, because even though one might consider animals to be thinking, feeling, conscious individuals, that does not negate the fact that in nature, some animals are going to be eaten by other animals, and that's just how it works. Biologically speaking, we are omnivores. I agree that we eat too much meat, and our methods of procuring our meat is ethically and environmentally questionable, if not down-right wrong. But I have a hard time finding issue with the hunter, who takes down a wild deer for his sustenance. That is, after all, only the natural order of things.
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
I have no problem eating animals. It is natural for us to kill and eat them, they are after all part of our diet.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey, avid meat-eater here ;)

So how can we overcome these problems?
Why are they problems? Assuming that there is no objective standard(as you stated) how is it a problem that our morals reflect social understandings of right and wrong?

That means that you believe that some things are off the cards when it comes to animals.
I am with you so far... some things are off the table...

But this is where the defeasibility of our subjective morality becomes problematic. If we think its wrong to shoot cats full of pellets for our own personal pleasure but not to kill cattle for food, then we have drawn a line. There wouldn't be a problem if we just didn't care about animals at all because then we could just draw the line at "anything goes" but are bleeding hearts don't let us, unfortunately. And this new line is much harder to draw for a couple of reasons.
I fail to see how it is a problem that our morals are not simple/simplistic...

Firstly, we don't know enough about ourselves to know how different we are from animals.
The difference between ourselves and (other) animals is of no matter, as an arguement for meat eating can be made on either side of it...

Secondly, the "anything goes" attitude is the norm... we are socialised towards it. We cannot tell how much of that attitude is a genuine moral choice and how much is mere desensitisation to immoral acts.
Without an objective base to speak from, how do could you said that something we find to be not immoral is desensitisation? In fact, talk of immorality, except from one's own perspective seems pointless without such a base...

Its not like we are faced with a moral dilemma. Abortion is a moral dilemma issue because there is potential harm to be sown on both sides. But vegetarianism is all about doing the least harm. It is the safe option.
If everyone had to be vegetarian some families could not survive, they do not have the financials to buy all of their food... they must hunt some of it... thus vegetarianism has the potential for harm...

If it turns out that meat eating was alright
What would the mechanism for it "turning out" either alright, or not, be?

We have no definitive answers and our subjective morality could be wrong.
In a worldview without objective morality talk of an individuals morals being wrong is meaningless...

At the beginning of your post you state that there is no objective morality, then go about contructing an arguement based on, what seems, the possibility of us finding an objective base to compare our current standards to sometime in the future...
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Just out of curiousity, do you believe that we are morally obliged to abstain from meat simply because we are thinking beings? I ask, because even though one might consider animals to be thinking, feeling, conscious individuals, that does not negate the fact that in nature, some animals are going to be eaten by other animals, and that's just how it works. Biologically speaking, we are omnivores. I agree that we eat too much meat, and our methods of procuring our meat is ethically and environmentally questionable, if not down-right wrong. But I have a hard time finding issue with the hunter, who takes down a wild deer for his sustenance. That is, after all, only the natural order of things.

Humans are fortunate in that we have a system which allows us to eat a great variety of food and survive on a number of diets. We are perfectly capable of surviving without meat in contemporary society as we have access to many nutritional foods.
The choice to be vegetarian is not relevant then to what is natural (in my opinion). What makes us very different to other animals is that we have this quality known as emphathy. We are able to understand that another creature can suffer, and that our own actions can contribute to this suffering. It is because of this understanding that a person may develop a feeling of moral obligation to reduce the suffering that is rampant in this world. Many things are natural, but what we consider good or bad or moral and immoral are subjective. I do not follow the rational that just because something is natural it is justifiable. That would make many things that our current society and culture consider immoral to be completely fine.
 

Rin

Member
Heya Mister Emu,
I'll start at the end :).
Mister Emu said:
In a worldview without objective morality talk of an individuals morals being wrong is meaningless...

At the beginning of your post you state that there is no objective morality, then go about contructing an arguement based on, what seems, the possibility of us finding an objective base to compare our current standards to sometime in the future...
Objective morality is like a tree, the branches are only as strong as its roots. Subjective morality is more like a cloud, nothing holds it up but if its particles are arranged just right, it will come down. We can still test for "wrongness" in subjective morality by looking at the arrangement of our morals and noticing inconsistencies. Furthermore, if I believe moral x because of some fact y and fact y turns out to be wrong then I should determine moral x to be wrong. Moral x is still subjective because fact y is not moral and does not justify moral x. It just happens to cause me to hold moral x.

So to be clear, there are two ways a subjective moral can be considered false. If it fails to cohere with some other moral or if it is dependent on a non-moral, false fact.

Mister Emu said:
Why are they problems? Assuming that there is no objective standard(as you stated) how is it a problem that our morals reflect social understandings of right and wrong?
They are problems because we would give up a moral if we percieved it to be inconsistent or based in error. This is not to say that we should do this (for that would be objective) only that we do, in fact, do this. And because we follow this path, anything that obscures inconsistency of error is an obstacle in our way: a problem.

Mister Emu said:
I fail to see how it is a problem that our morals are not simple/simplistic...
The more complex the situtiation, the harder it is to remove errors and inconsistencies from our morals. Thus if there are two competing philosophies and we cannot choose between them because the situation is too complex, we should choose the philosophy that has the smallest possibility of causing harm. Why? Because we don't want to cause harm.

Mister Emu said:
The difference between ourselves and (other) animals is of no matter, as an arguement for meat eating can be made on either side of it...
I disagree. Because if you are able to produce an argument that justifies eating meat but that is unable to distinguish between human meat and animal meat then you have adopted cannibalism. But I know you have not adopted cannibalism. Thus at some point you must make a claim that seperates humans from animals.

Mister Emu said:
If everyone had to be vegetarian some families could not survive, they do not have the financials to buy all of their food... they must hunt some of it... thus vegetarianism has the potential for harm...
I agree completely. Context is important. The same goes for killing humans, stealing or just about any moral, as far as I can see. Generally, we demand higher moral standards based on our situations and so vegetarianism, like any moral, is for those in a suitable situation. However, once in that situation, it appears inconsistent to ignore it.
 

Rin

Member
Father Heathen said:
What about all those innocent microbes on those veggies that will die in your digestive juices?
Vegetarianism is the path of least harm not no harm. I have no idea what to think about "innocent" microbes and am quite happy to wallow in my ignorance. But it is irrelevant. If microbes deserve not to die then we need to do more than vegetarianism. If they are mere objects then we need to do just vegetarianism. Either way, vegetarianism is not challenged.

Panda said:
I have no problem eating animals. It is natural for us to kill and eat them, they are after all part of our diet.
If you believe in an objective morality that makes it natural for us to kill and eat animals then your belief system is consistent. However, if you feel morally dirty upon being cruel, say, to an animal then there appears to be some tension between your conscience and this objective morality. Why do animals have enough moral status to justify killing them for food but not for pleasure? What moral fact makes this so?

Otherwise, if your morality is subjective, then I am merely saying that we are in a position of ignorance and thus should choose the path of least harm which is vegetarianism.
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Who are you asking?

Anyone who thinks the consumption of animal life is immoral. If microbes are fair game, then let's clime the latter of complexity. Would consuming worms be okay, then? Or Insects, mollusks or crustaceans? None of them are capable of the level of awareness or physical/emotional anguish that mammals are. So if microbes and other tiny animal life are okay then where exactly is the line drawn? Also, our forward facing eyes and teeth structure suggests that humans are naturally omnivorous. Can something be natural and yet immoral?
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Anyone who thinks the consumption of animal life is immoral. If microbes are fair game, then let's clime the latter of complexity. Would consuming worms be okay, then? Or Insects, mollusks or crustaceans? None of them are capable of the level of awareness or physical/emotional anguish that mammals are. So if microbes and other tiny animal life are okay then where exactly is the line drawn? Also, our forward facing eyes and teeth structure suggests that humans are naturally omnivorous. Can something be natural and yet immoral?

A vegetarian will just do what they can. The worm or insect most likely suffers. Because we can usual help to avoid eating these creatures, we do. Also, its freaking GROSS :areyoucra

I htink that Rin answered you very well. And as for your final question, I pointed out in one of my posts that just because something is natural doesn't mean it is moral or good. After all, morality is subjective as are concepts of good/bad. This was my reply:

"Humans are fortunate in that we have a system which allows us to eat a great variety of food and survive on a number of diets. We are perfectly capable of surviving without meat in contemporary society as we have access to many nutritional foods.
The choice to be vegetarian is not relevant then to what is natural (in my opinion). What makes us very different to other animals is that we have this quality known as emphathy. We are able to understand that another creature can suffer, and that our own actions can contribute to this suffering. It is because of this understanding that a person may develop a feeling of moral obligation to reduce the suffering that is rampant in this world. Many things are natural, but what we consider good or bad or moral and immoral are subjective. I do not follow the rational that just because something is natural it is justifiable. That would make many things that our current society and culture consider immoral to be completely fine."
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
It should be emphasised that being vegetarian is a personal choice based on a particular rational and subjective moral thinking.
 

texan1

Active Member
Thank you for the thread and for putting this issue back in my consciousness. I don't believe that consuming animals for food is immoral, but I do believe that the way we harvest and treat the animals we eat is immoral - pretty horrific in most cases. We are so far removed from that process though, so most people don't think about it when they eat a chicken sandwich.

I also think it would be helpful for meat eaters to consider eating less meat. It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" kind of thing. Some people feel like there is no way they will ever have the time or desire to drastically change their diet. But if everyone in the US just cut back a little it could have a huge impact on all fronts - moral, environmental, and health. No one needs to eat meat for every meal, or even everyday.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
I am morally an omnivore. Plants are just as sacred as animals. I do have a big beef (mmmm) with how many animals are raised and killed though.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
These concerns are not definitive. But they don't need to be. Its not like we are faced with a moral dilemma. Abortion is a moral dilemma issue because there is potential harm to be sown on both sides. But vegetarianism is all about doing the least harm. It is the safe option. If it turns out that meat eating was alright and we can do with animals as we like, then vegetarians will not have caused any harm in the mean time. The same is not true for meat-eaters. The above concerns indicate that the rational course is to tread safely until, if and when, we know more and vegetarianism is clearly the path of moral safety.

This reeks of Pascal's Wager... and that's not a good thing.

If it turns out that meat eating is necessary for a person's well being and development, then being vegetarians will indeed cause harm.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I am morally an omnivore. Plants are just as sacred as animals. I do have a big beef (mmmm) with how many animals are raised and killed though.

So if somebody told you that you had to make a choice between uprooting a carrot from the ground or killing a cow it would make no difference to you which was killed?
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
We are so far removed from that process though, so most people don't think about it when they eat a chicken sandwich.

I do think about it every time I eat a chicken sandwich. And I realize what a great guy I am, helping to provide job security for the guy that slaughtered the chicken I eat.
 
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