"Some Feminists are Man-Haters"

[Kori]

Let me be clear I do not hate most men because I threw a dart at a dart board and it landed on "Hate most men" opposed to "Hate some men" or "hate all men". I feel the way I feel for VERY real reasons. At least I can admit it. Do not lecture me because I am honest.

 

[LittlePinky82]

Of course I didn't read. This is not the first time I have come across the concept. And I have read many articles about it before. What I have objected to is not the possibility that privilege exists. I have objected to your judging of societies you have not investigated and about which have admitted knowing next to nothing. How do you know there is privilege in a place you know nothing about? It is because you believe in the idea of privilege like it is an article of faith. To you, it appears, it must be true, always...everywhere.

Well here's some recent issues women are still having in South Africa.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/...th-barriers-to-antenatal-care-in-south-africa

http://people-power.beforeitsnews.c...ggle-against-lesbian-hate-crimes-2695126.html

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-16/heres-how-south-african-students-talk-about-race-and-gender


http://www.ngopulse.org/article/south-africa-misses-mark-women-politics


I'm not as ignorant as you think...


You just seem to be more against this (and perhaps anti-feminist? It kind of seems like it with your previous responses about gender studies) and not wanting to agree with it so I don't think there's anything else to be said. I'm sorry but I just can't keep going with the same arguments for the nth time. Cheers. I think this thread has run it's course too it seems so see ya round.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My point is why focus on those so much when there's a much more pronounced difference between poor and wealthy.

As has been pointed out, that focus is there. There is focus, study, and emphasis on the huge disadvantages of being poor, such as how it's actually more expensive to be poor, food deserts, crime ridden neighborhoods, and the fact it's very likely that you and your kids are going to live and die poor.

 

[Thanda]

Well here's some recent issues women are still having in South Africa.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/...th-barriers-to-antenatal-care-in-south-africa

If you knew how terrible the public hospital system is in South Africa especially in black areas as a result of apartheid you would understand that the lack of antenatal care for women in South Africa is not a product of men's privilege or women's lack of it. I would know, my father and sister died in appalling conditions in just such hospitals.

Interestingly I was listening to the radio a few months ago. The topic was about how inaccessible most clinics and hospitals are for men (in South Africa), especially when it comes to them going for check ups that might involve their private parts (STD's, prostate cancer and such issues). The reason that was identified was the dominance of women in the health sector which doesn't allow men a comfortable space. As a result many men avoid going for check ups and this results in them sometimes dying of illnesses that could have been easily treated.

The moral of this story is, always remember that everything happens within a context and everyone has their struggles.

http://people-power.beforeitsnews.c...ggle-against-lesbian-hate-crimes-2695126.html

Yes there are terrible practices like this in South Africa. Again it is something that happens within the context of a very violent country (one of the highest murder, rape, assault and robbery rates in world). Just last year there were attacks on foreigners by some groups. Gay men, while probably not getting raped for obvious reasons, don't fare that much better. But hopefully with better education and economic opportunities things will improve on all fronts.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-16/heres-how-south-african-students-talk-about-race-and-gender

Not exactly sure what I'm supposed to gain from this. Did she publish the words of everyone she spoke to or a selection. And if a selection what was the criteria? I have no doubt that the views of those who spoke were honest and heartfelt. But their views and experiences are their own. Many men working under dangerous circumstances in our mines might have a different story to tell about what it is like to be a man in South Africa.

And I will note one more thing. One of the ladies spoke about how it seems like men get away with the mistreatment of women. I've been mugged a few times. We were also robbed at our home a couple of times while we were in the house. From those experiences I developed a feeling that it is useless going to the police for assistance. That is a feeling many have in the country (not just rape survivors) and it has resulted in many incidences of vigilante justice.
So again, everything happens withing a context. It isn't bad for women (and rape survivors in particular) but rosy for everyone else - it's rough all over.

http://www.ngopulse.org/article/south-africa-misses-mark-women-politics

As I've already discussed the Apex fallacy I need not go into this any further.

I'm not as ignorant as you think...

Thank goodness for google

 

[Revoltingest]

If you knew how terrible the public hospital system is in South Africa especially in black areas as a result of apartheid you would understand that the lack of antenatal care for women in South Africa is not a product of men's privilege or women's lack of it. I would know, my father and sister died in appalling conditions in just such hospitals.

Interestingly I was listening to the radio a few months ago. The topic was about how inaccessible most clinics and hospitals are for men (in South Africa), especially when it comes to them going for check ups that might involve their private parts (STD's, prostate cancer and such issues). The reason that was identified was the dominance of women in the health sector which doesn't allow men a comfortable space. As a result many men avoid going for check ups and this results in them sometimes dying of illnesses that could have been easily treated.

The moral of this story is, always remember that everything happens within a context and everyone has their struggles.



Yes there are terrible practices like this in South Africa. Again it is something that happens within the context of a very violent country (one of the highest murder, rape, assault and robbery rates in world). Just last year there were attacks on foreigners by some groups. Gay men, while probably not getting raped for obvious reasons, don't fare that much better. But hopefully with better education and economic opportunities things will improve on all fronts.



Not exactly sure what I'm supposed to gain from this. Did she publish the words of everyone she spoke to or a selection. And if a selection what was the criteria? I have no doubt that the views of those who spoke were honest and heartfelt. But their views and experiences are their own. Many men working under dangerous circumstances in our mines might have a different story to tell about what it is like to be a man in South Africa.

And I will note one more thing. One of the ladies spoke about how it seems like men get away with the mistreatment of women. I've been mugged a few times. We were also robbed at our home a couple of times while we were in the house. From those experiences I developed a feeling that it is useless going to the police for assistance. That is a feeling many have in the country (not just rape survivors) and it has resulted in many incidences of vigilante justice.
So again, everything happens withing a context. It isn't bad for women (and rape survivors in particular) but rosy for everyone else - it's rough all over.



As I've already discussed the Apex fallacy I need not go into this any further.



Thank goodness for google

Are you an anti-feminist?

 

[Thanda]

Are you an anti-feminist?

I think I am. My main rub with it actually isn't women's rights. It is the ideology that has been built around their movement. Patriarchy and privilege have, IMO, been made to be the prism through which the whole complexity of the world and human interactions must be seen. All interactions between the sexes get framed in the context of power and dominance. There is no space for the love a man has for his wife and a wife for her husband. No space for the strife and struggles and compromises of human relationships. It reminds of the equally ridiculous gynocentrism doctrine of the men's rights movement. I utterly reject all such attempts at oversimplification of human existence.

As an aside, I found the following post which kind of sums up my feelings about the "patriarchy" doctrine:

 

[LittlePinky82]

If you knew how terrible the public hospital system is in South Africa especially in black areas as a result of apartheid you would understand that the lack of antenatal care for women in South Africa is not a product of men's privilege or women's lack of it. I would know, my father and sister died in appalling conditions in just such hospitals.

Interestingly I was listening to the radio a few months ago. The topic was about how inaccessible most clinics and hospitals are for men (in South Africa), especially when it comes to them going for check ups that might involve their private parts (STD's, prostate cancer and such issues). The reason that was identified was the dominance of women in the health sector which doesn't allow men a comfortable space. As a result many men avoid going for check ups and this results in them sometimes dying of illnesses that could have been easily treated.

The moral of this story is, always remember that everything happens within a context and everyone has their struggles.



Yes there are terrible practices like this in South Africa. Again it is something that happens within the context of a very violent country (one of the highest murder, rape, assault and robbery rates in world). Just last year there were attacks on foreigners by some groups. Gay men, while probably not getting raped for obvious reasons, don't fare that much better. But hopefully with better education and economic opportunities things will improve on all fronts.



Not exactly sure what I'm supposed to gain from this. Did she publish the words of everyone she spoke to or a selection. And if a selection what was the criteria? I have no doubt that the views of those who spoke were honest and heartfelt. But their views and experiences are their own. Many men working under dangerous circumstances in our mines might have a different story to tell about what it is like to be a man in South Africa.

And I will note one more thing. One of the ladies spoke about how it seems like men get away with the mistreatment of women. I've been mugged a few times. We were also robbed at our home a couple of times while we were in the house. From those experiences I developed a feeling that it is useless going to the police for assistance. That is a feeling many have in the country (not just rape survivors) and it has resulted in many incidences of vigilante justice.
So again, everything happens withing a context. It isn't bad for women (and rape survivors in particular) but rosy for everyone else - it's rough all over.



As I've already discussed the Apex fallacy I need not go into this any further.



Thank goodness for google

You still don't get it. Just because I don't keep up with current events every day somewhere doesn't mean I'm completely clueless. Don't underestimate people.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I think I am. My main rub with it actually isn't women's rights. It is the ideology that has been built around their money. Patriarchy and privilege have, IMO, been made to be the prism through which the world complexity of the world and human interactions. All interactions between the sexes get framed in the context of power and dominance. There is no space for the love a man has for his wife and a wife for her husband. No space for the for the strife and struggles and compromises of human relationships. It reminds of the equally ridiculous gynocentrism doctrine of the men's rights movement. I utterly reject all such attempts at oversimplification of human existence.

As an aside, I found the following post which kind of sums up my feelings about the "patriarchy" doctrine:

View attachment 12047

So you admit to being anti feminist which means nothing I say you will acknowledge. Tsk.

 

[Revoltingest]

So you admit to being anti feminist which means nothing I say you will acknowledge. Tsk.

If I may step in here.....
I see some identifying as "anti-feminist" cuz of the public perception of feminism.
It's easy to see something like the Hillary campaign flap, which gets a great deal
of attention, & not want to be associated with such astonishing attitudes.
It necessarily mean that one is against gender equality.
There's often more common ground than heated discussions would make it appear.

(I identify as a "non-feminist", "egalitarian" or sometimes as a "libertarian feminist"
cuz it's more accurate, & avoids all the unfortunate baggage. But I'm all about the
equality, & I go even farther in bodily autonomy & associated rights for all people.)

 

[LittlePinky82]

If I may step in here.....
I see some identifying as "anti-feminist" because of the public perception of feminism.
It's easy to see something like the Hillary campaign flap, which gets a great deal of
attention, & not want to be associated with such astonishing attitudes.
It necessarily mean that one is against gender equality.

(I identify as a "non-feminist", "egalitarian" or sometimes as a "libertarian feminist"
cuz it's more accurate, & avoids all the unfortunate baggage. But I'm all about the
equality, & I go even farther in bodily autonomy & associated rights for all people.)

From his posts and earlier comments about gender studies that is obviously not the case. He keeps showing his ignorance or really just refusing to accept he has privilege as a male. See him pointing to himself about getting robbed. See the previous quote about that issue. Having privilege doesn't mean bad things will never happen to members of your group. It means how do you fare vs the other side? When you get robbed does the police listen to your group as a whole? He keeps time and again pointing to individuals as if they represent everyone. It's clear he has anti feminist feelings.

 

[Revoltingest]

From his posts and earlier comments about gender studies that is obviously not the case. He keeps showing his ignorance or really just refusing to accept he has privilege as a male. See him pointing to himself about getting robbed. See the previous quote about that issue. Having privilege doesn't mean bad things will never happen to members of your group. It means how do you fare vs the other side? When you get robbed does the police listen to your group as a whole?

It isn't so obvious to me.
He's an interesting guy (very different background from mine), & I'd like to hear him expound upon his views about gender related rights.
Hear that, @Thanda ? You're invited to tell us all more about your philosophy.
We won't bite.
(I won't, anyway.)

 

[LittlePinky82]

It isn't so obvious to me.
He's an interesting guy (very different background from mine), & I'd like to hear him expound upon his views about gender related rights.
Hear that, @Thanda ? You're invited to tell us all more about your philosophy.
We won't bite.
(I won't, anyway.)

If he's going to keep saying the same thing over and over I'm not interested.

 

[rocala]

'Some feminists are man haters'
Well an awful lot of men are women haters. The only difference is the stupid *******s don't give it a name, they think it's normal??????????????/

 

[Revoltingest]

If he's going to keep saying the same thing over and over I'm not interested.

We can steer the conversation in a little different direction, ie,
talking about values & goals, instead of contentious issues.

 

[LittlePinky82]

We can steer the conversation in a little different direction, ie,
talking about values & goals, instead of contentious issues.

Not interested. Yall can but I'm not. Especially if there's going to be the same type of attitude from some people. I've got better things to do.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes, you still have more power than your female counter parts. You're looking at it from you alone and not you part of a group system. That's your problem. If you have a female in the same situation in your scenario you're going to have the power in the situation. And if you're white you're going to have more power than your non-white counter part. I suggest you read some sociology on the matter.

Mate, I'm a half Indian FEMALE. Nice assumption there by the way.

Being "part of a group" doesn't do much for the individual in ****ty circumstances. Your attempt to force us all into this paradigm of privilege and power struggles conveniently ignores personal struggles that EVERYONE faces. Regardless of wealth, sex or race. White male privilege doesn't do a whole lot of good for you if you are homeless. If you die from AIDS or you are mentally ill and facing abuse in care (even if your abusive staff are black and/or women.)

And please, Asians in Western countries are on average far more successful than their white counterparts. Despite being a minority. (I'd post a link, but alas will have to wait for my laptop to stop updating. Stupid phone and it's limitations.) This success is most likely a result of Asian people actually being productive instead of being whinging POMS lamenting at the "privilege" of their classmates. Well that and that stereotype of the high education standards Asian parents have for their kids is pretty accurate. My half Chinese friend would lament over an A minus and I was always steeling myself for the "disappointed" speech after my poor performance in school, mostly B's on my report card unfortunately.


Disclaimer. I'd like it noted that my use of the phrase "whinging poms" is that of the Aussie vernacular sense, jovial and snarky, rather than any attempt at intentionally insulting to my British brethren.

 

[LittlePinky82]

Mate, I'm a half Indian FEMALE. Nice assumption there by the way.

Being "part of a group" doesn't do much for the individual in ****ty circumstances. Your attempt to force us all into this paradigm of privilege and power struggles conveniently ignores personal struggles that EVERYONE faces. Regardless of wealth, sex or race. White male privilege doesn't do a whole lot of good for you if you are homeless. If you die from AIDS or you are mentally ill and facing abuse in care (even if your abusive staff are black and/or women.)

And please, Asians in Western countries are on average far more successful than their white counterparts. Despite being a minority. (I'd post a link, but alas will have to wait for my laptop to stop updating. Stupid phone and it's limitations.) This success is most likely a result of Asian people actually being productive instead of being whinging POMS lamenting at the "privilege" of their classmates. Well that and that stereotype of the high education standards Asian parents have for their kids is pretty accurate. My half Chinese friend would lament over an A minus and I was always steeling myself for the "disappointed" speech after my poor performance in school, mostly B's on my report card unfortunately.

Sorry but that's your doing. You haven't given any indication of anything about you except where you're from. Don't blame me there, mate. But, again, that's what privilege is about. See the previous quote i posted about that. Its not about you as an individual. And Asian Americans still have plenty of racism issues to deal with. Hence why, as a group, they've worked so hard. It helps to understand why for something like that. They've had to work hard to get where they are. And then you have people like you try to use Asian Americans like that. What a gross post. And I guess where you missed the quote I used that says it's not about how nothing bad will happen to you in the said privileged group but what do you have bring in that said privileged group that the non privileged group doesn't have. And I don't have to force anything. It already exists and has for a long time. If I wasn't here typing my responses it'd still exist.

 

[freethinker44]

Let me be clear I do not hate most men because I threw a dart at a dart board and it landed on "Hate most men" opposed to "Hate some men" or "hate all men". I feel the way I feel for VERY real reasons. At least I can admit it. Do not lecture me because I am honest.

I don't know what your reasons are, but they're wrong.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I don't know what your reasons are, but they're wrong.

Unless the person says why that's not really fair. Clearly there's some type of feelings there that need to be resolved.

 

[SomeRandom]

Sorry but that's your doing. You haven't given any indication of anything about you except where you're from. Don't blame me there, mate. But, again, that's what privilege is about. See the previous quote i posted about that. Its not about you as an individual. And Asian Americans still have plenty of racism issues to deal with. Hence why, as a group, they've worked so hard. It helps to understand why for something like that. They've had to work hard to get where they are. And then you have people like you try to use Asian Americans like that. What a gross post.

I specifically asked in the post you first responded to if the White homeless man had more privilege than I. A woman.
So no, you just jumped on an assumption without any real basis, to the point of ignoring specific contextual clues.

Yeh everyone has to deal with racism. So? Asians are no nonsense types and they work hard. Did I say otherwise? But I find it insulting, as a minority, that you would use us in a manner which paints us as helpless victims. We are not. We do something about our status. And some of us are sick of others speaking on our behalf lamenting over racism that we overcome, both from society and in our own communities. Half and halves will know what I'm talking about there.

You talk about us Asians/minorities as though we are your pet projects. Cooing with pride at our achievements like we had to overcome something terrible. In reality us Western born minorities living in suburbia didn't face as many hardships in comparison to our parents. A fact that is commonly seized upon by our parents at every conceivable opportunity.
In lower economic areas that is a different story, of course. But I do not imagine it was any less difficult for the white person living in the lower economic status either.
Course you probably can tell me why their plight is less important just because of their melanin levels?

It's very easy for the sociological types (specifically Gender/Women's studies) to pontificate on the tragedies of our society. Lament over things like privilege and the like. But I find it rather interesting that they refuse to listen to any sort of dissent from the very minorities they speak on behalf of. Speaking generally, of course.