Some Important Facts for the Religious (and Everybody Else)

[Augustus]

One of the Green Planet episodes (David Attenborough) concerned trees and fungi communicating and carrying out preferential behaviour. It is, as you say, fascinating.

****ing toadstools, coming over here taking our sunlight and soil nutrients, should send 'em back where they came from...

 

[Altfish]

3. It is unscientific to say "impossible". Out-of-body experiences: Neuroscience or the paranormal?

I don't think the poster used the word "impossible"

 

[dybmh]

the so-called "reincarnation evidence" isn't evidence for disembodied consciousness.)

Why not? Past life memories are evidence for consciousness surviving brain death.

 

[Heyo]

Why not? Past life memories are evidence for consciousness surviving brain death.

As outlined in post #65, if true, it may be evidence for memories surviving, not necessarily consciousness.

 

[robocop (actually)]

1. No religious or spiritual healer has ever been proved to have genuine healing powers although many of them have been exposed as frauds.

I have been cured by blessing for third nerve palsy (double vision) more than once. I had to believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which verse in that says "Holy Spirit, the intermediary between God and His creation."?

He is no intermediary? He is a messenger.

Yes, without Muhammad there was no Message.

God Chose Muhammad to be that Mediator, God gave Muhammad the Holy Spirit, that is Muhammad was Annointed with that Message, Muhammad was 'Christ'.

No one else gets that Message from Allah, but by Submitting to the Message given by Muhammad. That is why we have to be born again with the 'Spirit of Faith, from our human spirit, into the light of the Holy Spirit.

The sun and mirror is the best explanation 9f the Mediation from Allah to Man.


In the above image the Mirror is the Messenger, the Perfect reflection of the Holy Spirit (The Word of God), they are the Chosen Messenger. A different mirror in each age, but the same reflection of Allah is seen, relative to our understanding and capacities.

That is how Muhammad, a material body is the first Messenger and will be the Last Messenger.

This is all through the Bible as well, it is the Covenant given in the Old Testament, that God will never leave us alone, God will always send His Messengers/Prophets.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

God Chose Muhammad to be that Mediator

Nope. You are making things up.

A mediator is absolutely different to a rasool.

Maybe you should just read a bit. Not just make things up.

Sorry Tony. This is more than absurd.

 

[Ponder This]

1. The observable cosmos is 13.6 billion years old and has evolved into its present form.
2. The earth is 4.6 billion years old and along with the rest of the solar system formed under gravity from a cloud of dust and gas in space.
3. There no evidence that any consciousness can function without a living, physical brain.
4. Humans and chimpanzees have a common ancestor, and we split off from that ancestor six million years ago in Africa.
5. Prehistoric religion goes back at least thirty thousand years.
6. Historic religion started about five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia and Egypt.
7. The oldest religion practiced today is Hinduism.
8. The creation stories in Genesis 1-2 are taken from Babylonian mythology.
9. No religious or spiritual healer has ever been proved to have genuine healing powers although many of them have been exposed as frauds.

There are many more such facts, but my point is that if you know what's going on, then you know better than to believe what religion claims.

There are many more such facts, but my point is that if you know what's going on, then you know better than to believe what religion claims.

Those facts really aren't reconcilable with many religious claims. They demonstrate that religion is simply wrong regarding its claims about the world.

Let me see if I understand your argument:
Some religious people make false claims.
Therefore, religion is simply wrong.

Hmm.
Some scientific people make false claims.
Does this imply that science is simply wrong?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry Tony. This is more than absurd

All the best Firedragon, peace be with you.

May peace be upon Muhammad, a Messenger of Allah.

Regards Tony

 

[RestlessSoul]

so bible no longer considered the inerrant word of god ?

I’m not sure it ever was? Revelation is, as far as I’m aware, the only book in the Bible that is considered to be revealed, and that particular book has never been central to any mainstream Christian theology.

As for Genesis, I think that book is so obviously intended as allegory, it’s difficult to imagine that anyone would ever have taken it literally. Apparently though, people have and do, so I guess I’m wrong on that last point.

 

[dybmh]

As outlined in post #65, if true, it may be evidence for memories surviving, not necessarily consciousness.

The original claim in the OP is that there is no evidence for a functioning consciousness without a physical brain. So it really depends on what is meant by "consciousness functioning."

Certainly, these past life cases are peculiar enough to move the ball down the field towards rationalizing belief in consciousness functioning outside of a physical brain. They do provide evidence, come from a reputable source, and are published for peer review.

In post 65 you describe a possible mechanism for these observations. If they are simply electro-magnetic, what is the source for these waves after brain death?

 

[Heyo]

The original claim in the OP is that there is no evidence for a functioning consciousness without a physical brain. So it really depends on what is meant by "consciousness functioning."

Certainly, these past life cases are peculiar enough to move the ball down the field towards rationalizing belief in consciousness functioning outside of a physical brain. They do provide evidence, come from a reputable source, and are published for peer review.

We have much better evidence for consciousness outside a living brain: every halfway sophisticated AI is better than some vague memories, no matter which definition of consciousness you use.

 

[dybmh]

We have much better evidence for consciousness outside a living brain: every halfway sophisticated AI is better than some vague memories, no matter which definition of consciousness you use.

The example previously provided of Ryan Hammons do not describe vague memories. They are specific.

Psychology Today - Evaluating the Evidence for Reincarnation

"Around the age of 4, Ryan Hammons told his mother Cyndi, “I think I used to be somebody else.” Whenever they saw the Hollywood sign on TV, Ryan would get excited, saying that was his home and he wanted to return there. He said that he had been an agent in Hollywood and that the agency had changed people’s names. He talked about dancing on Broadway and living in a house with a large swimming pool. Sometimes when songs came on the radio, he would stand up and start tap dancing. He talked about going to fancy parties with a “cowboy man” who had a horse that performed tricks and also did cigarette commercials. At school, when asked to draw pictures of his home, he would always draw four people—himself, his parents, and “the old me” (5).

Cyndi began to write down everything that Ryan told her about his past life. She borrowed books about Hollywood from the local library, hoping they would help Ryan process his memories. In one book, they found a still from an old movie called Night After Night. Ryan became very animated and shouted, “Mummy, that’s George—we did a picture together!” Then he pointed to a man to the side of the photo and said, “And that’s me.” Ryan had always said that he didn’t know the name of his previous personality, and at first Cyndi was unable to identify the man he pointed at. However, she found out that the other man was an actor named George Raft.

When Ryan was 5, his mother made contact with Jim Tucker, who agreed to investigate his claims. A film archivist (employed by a TV production company who made a documentary about Ryan) identified the man Ryan said was “me” as Marty Martyn, a dancer, actor, and agent who died in 1964. When Tucker visited Ryan and his parents, Ryan was asked to pick out photos of people and places that related to Marty Martyn, which he did successfully.

Most of Ryan’s statements about his previous life had been recorded by his mother before Tucker got involved, and before Marty Martyn was identified. Some statements had already been verified by his mother. For example, she had confirmed that the cowboy friend he often spoke about was a man called Wild Bill Elliot. With Tucker’s help, other statements were verified from sources such as public records at national archives, newspapers, obituaries, travel documents, and census reports. (Since Martyn was an obscure figure, there was no information about him on the internet, at least at that time.) Martyn’s daughter was contacted and verified other statements.

In total, 55 of Ryan’s statements about his previous life were verified. For example, it was confirmed that Marty Martyn was once a tap dancer, that he ran a talent agency that changed people’s names, that he had several wives, that his favorite restaurant was in Chinatown, that he spent a lot of time in Paris, that he had a large collection of sunglasses, that he bought his daughter a dog when she was 6, and so on. When Cyndi took him to the beautiful old building where the Marty Martyn Talent Agency had once been, he acted “as if he were truly returning home after a long journey...His whole face lit up with joy” (6).

(5) Tucker, J. (2021) Cases of the reincarnation type. In Kelly, E & Marshall, P. (Eds.). Consciousness unbound.. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield.

(6) Kean, L. (2017). Surviving death. New York: Three Rivers Press, p. 66.

I ask again regarding post 65; what is the source of the electromagnetic waves after brain death?

 

[Viker]

then you know better than to believe what religion claims

Which one? Not every religion makes claims counter to what science can confirm. Not every religion is strict Abrahamic literalism.

 

[Jagella]

Please, most religious types have already moved past the literalist reading of Genesis, sheesh.

Some people still don't realize that Genesis is wrong and need to know that it's plagiarized Babylonian mythology.

And I believe miraculous healings have occurred.

I just hope that people don't believe that. When people waste their time with religious quackery, then tragedy is very often the result.

 

[Heyo]

I ask again regarding post 65; what is the source of the electromagnetic waves after brain death?

The original thoughts of the individual having them. There is no reason to believe that they could be endlessly reflected until picked up by a sensitive child but it is a hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon (if real) that is closer to the phenomenon and makes less assumptions than "reincarnation". I.e. according to Occam's razor, the evidence is for the "transferred memory" hypothesis more than for "reincarnation".
There are more hints against reincarnation like the incompleteness of the memories, the fact that the children mostly forget about the memories later and become individuals in no way connected to the originator of the memories and, most notably, a lack of memories after the death of the originator.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Some people still don't realize that Genesis is wrong and need to know that it's plagiarized Babylonian mythology.



I just hope that people don't believe that. When people waste their time with religious quackery, then tragedy is very often the result.

Some people have apparently failed to grasp commonplace concepts like allegory, metaphor and myth. Statements like “Genesis is wrong” are meaningless coming from someone who is quite clearly reading it wrong.

 

[George-ananda]

Some people still don't realize that Genesis is wrong and need to know that it's plagiarized Babylonian mythology.

I think calling it 'right' or 'wrong' would be an oversimplification.

I just hope that people don't believe that. When people waste their time with religious quackery, then tragedy is very often the result.

I said I believe miraculous healing does occur. I never said to abandon normal medical treatment.

 

[Jagella]

Or vice versa; the creation stories in Genesis 1-2 are an oral tradition so it could be that Babylonian mythology took the stories from Hebrew tradition.

All the sources I've ever checked including Britannica and Wikipedia state that the Genesis creation stories are based in Babylonian mythology. For example, from Genesis Creation Narratives we read:

Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology, but adapted them to their belief in one God, establishing a monotheistic creation in opposition to the polytheistic creation myth of ancient Israel's neighbors.

There's no evidence at all that Jewish religion influenced the Babylonians' mythology.

 

[firedragon]

Some people have apparently failed to grasp commonplace concepts like allegory, metaphor and myth. Statements like “Genesis is wrong” are meaningless coming from someone who is quite clearly reading it wrong.

Hmm. Thats a pretty strange comment I must say. But, also strangely, I have to agree with you. I mean your analysis of Genesis and other peoples statements (Not the part about someone reading it wrong).

Nice.