Some Important Facts for the Religious (and Everybody Else)

[firedragon]

Some people still don't realize that Genesis is wrong and need to know that it's plagiarized Babylonian mythology.

Can you prove without doubt that Genesis copied from Gilgamesh? What are the evidences you have other than saying "Gilgamesh has a similar flood and some actors in hermeneutics"?

I will look forward to your analysis.

 

[Jagella]

I mean, none of those really bother me or don't fit into what I currently practice.

Many religious people really hate science and other modern disciplines because what we're learning from them is that religion has been getting it wrong all along. It's important to religious people that their beliefs be true because they want the rewards promised by their religion. Consequently, hostility often results when those bubbles are burst.

This feels a bit like it is aimed at Abrahamic traditions though lol.

Primarily, yes, the OP presents facts that will especially bother Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

I think pretty much any religion taken from a 100% literal standpoint is gonna seem a bit silly on the surface.

Taking religion figuratively doesn't help much. Doing so is just a way of covering up all the errors that are way too obvious if the religion is taken literally. At least conservative religion is more logically consistent than liberal religion not to say more honest.

 

[Jagella]

My only contention is number 3.

Only a neural system is required. Jelly fish don't have brains for example.

I'm not sure what your point is, but "neural systems" are physical. So poor jelly fish must die and lose forever whatever awareness they have. Just like we do.

And I love it!!!

 

[Jagella]

1) Prove it.
2) Prove it.
3) Prove it.
4) Prove it.
5) Prove it.
6) Prove it.
7) Prove it.
8) Prove it.

Maybe I overestimated the knowledge of the members here, or perhaps they don't know how to look things up. Every listed item in the OP is fairly common knowledge and can be found on Google, Wikipedia, and YouTube. Did you try any of those resources? I'd also recommend the works of Carl Sagan and in particular Sean M. Carroll's work on explaining how what we know from modern physics rules out any possibility of life after death.

9) Jesus did.

If modern-day healers like Benny Hinn are faking it, then why believe Jesus was any different? I think the answer to this question is that Hinn is close enough for us to see that he's a fraud while Christ's activities are far away and long ago if they ever happened at all. Miracles tend to be more believable the more remote they are because remote miracles are harder to falsify. That's why people believe Jesus rose from the dead two thousand years ago five thousand miles away rather than two days ago on their front porch!

Atheists must prove they are right at all costs.

Getting my facts straight cost me years of study and the loss of my Christian faith.

Nothing else seems to matter to them. They are not unlike school yard bullies attempting to impose their will on everyone else.

I wonder who else might act like that and if atheists got it from them. In any case, I see that people openly expressing skepticism of religious claims is seen by some believers as bullying. It's odd that people who believe they follow an all-powerful God can get defensive so easily. Besides, did Christ not command his followers to rejoice when they feel reviled for his sake?

 

[Jagella]

And what evidence you have that those are the facts? The problem here is that none of those can be proven correct. They are only common beliefs.

I see you deny what modern science has to say waving its theories away as "only common beliefs."

 

[Jagella]

@sun rise, @dybmh, @Twilight Hue

I don't get your objections. What is your evidence? (And no, the so-called "reincarnation evidence" isn't evidence for disembodied consciousness.)

Most of what I posted on the list in the OP is common knowledge you can easily look up. Now, item 3 might not be so well known. I'd suggest you check out How we know there's no afterlife - With Sean Carroll.

 

[Jagella]

Almost all the points on your list are fully accepted by mainstream Christianity, so I'm not sure what this achieves.

In that case "mainstream Christianity" accepts that there is no life after death, no creator-God, no miraculous healings, and no Bible they can depend upon for truth. It may be just a bizarre coincidence, but almost all the Christians I know deny almost everything on my list.

By the way, I need to start a thread about that sophisticated Christianity that accepts evolution I keep hearing about but that I never see. I'm hoping that somebody can tell me where to find it.

 

[Jagella]

Some people have apparently failed to grasp commonplace concepts like allegory, metaphor and myth. Statements like “Genesis is wrong” are meaningless coming from someone who is quite clearly reading it wrong.

Should I read Genesis your way to make Genesis right? Why not just see it as clearly wrong rather than struggle to get some truth out of it? Oh, and if Genesis 1-2 is allegory, metaphor, and myth (which it obviously is), then God is only a metaphor too.

 

[Jagella]

I think calling it 'right' or 'wrong' would be an oversimplification.

If I get something wrong and get called on it, then may I wave away the correction as an "oversimplification"? I wonder if students can use that tact on math tests.

I said I believe miraculous healing does occur. I never said to abandon normal medical treatment.

I've often wondered why Jesus needs help from doctors. Did he ever say: "Physician heal thyself just in case I can't"?

 

[Jagella]

Let me see if I understand your argument:
Some religious people make false claims.
Therefore, religion is simply wrong.

Hmm.
Some scientific people make false claims.
Does this imply that science is simply wrong?

You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that if religion's core dogmas are wrong, then religion is, of course, wrong.

And where did you get that I said religion is wrong because some religious people make false claims? I've noticed that a lot of people read into my posts things I never said. Maybe they want me to be wrong, and just in case I'm not wrong, they make me wrong.

 

[George-ananda]

I've often wondered why Jesus needs help from doctors. Did he ever say: "Physician heal thyself just in case I can't"?

The physical body is intended to experience birth and death. Only in unusual cases for reasons beyond our purview is the natural course rearranged.

 

[Jagella]

The physical body is intended to experience birth and death. Only in unusual cases for reasons beyond our purview is the natural course rearranged.

Why not just accept that "the natural course (is never) rearranged"? A conclusion like that needs no spaghetti logic to justify it, and it will neither disappoint people nor endanger them.

 

[George-ananda]

Why not just accept that "the natural course (is never) rearranged"? A conclusion like that needs no spaghetti logic to justify it, and it will neither disappoint people nor endanger them.

Because I know of well documented miraculous cures. Everybody should understand to expect the natural workings of karma. Medical care is always the correct course.

 

[stanberger]

Those facts really aren't reconcilable with many religious claims. They demonstrate that religion is simply wrong regarding its claims about the world.



Then you need to tell Einstein that. According to his Theory of Relativity, it is impossible for anything with mass to travel at or above the speed of light.



My point is that a religion that claims it is from "the beginning" cannot be a Johnny-come-lately in the history of religion. If religions like Judaism and Christianity came on the scene after Hinduism, and they did, then it is very difficult to explain their being true. Were Yahweh and Jesus just sitting around while men created a religion before Yahweh and Jesus got around to it? Different religions cropping up around the world at different times is very strong evidence that people are making up religion.



Name one religious healer who is genuine. I have a lot of health and fitness problems that that healer can help me with.

 

[sun rise]

I don't think the poster used the word "impossible"

He did originally but it's not there now - presumably edited.

 

[sun rise]

Can you prove without doubt that Genesis copied from Gilgamesh? What are the evidences you have other than saying "Gilgamesh has a similar flood and some actors in hermeneutics"?

I will look forward to your analysis.

Your challenge to @Jagella interested me so I looked around:

The Flood of Noah and the Flood of Gilgamesh has a point-by-point comparison.

The next site I found speaks directly to "copied"
Did the Bible 'Steal' the Flood Story from Gilgamesh?
All signs point to yes, that the authors of Genesis were clearly aware of the divine deluge described in the earlier Epic of Gilgamesh.

"We actually have the smoking gun," says Pryke. "Archeologists have found bits of the Epic of Gilgamesh all over [Ancient Israel]. It looks like Gilgamesh was something that was in broad circulation at the time."

 

[firedragon]

Your challenge to @Jagella interested me so I looked around:

The Flood of Noah and the Flood of Gilgamesh has a point-by-point comparison.

The next site I found speaks directly to "copied"
Did the Bible 'Steal' the Flood Story from Gilgamesh?
All signs point to yes, that the authors of Genesis were clearly aware of the divine deluge described in the earlier Epic of Gilgamesh.

"We actually have the smoking gun," says Pryke. "Archeologists have found bits of the Epic of Gilgamesh all over [Ancient Israel]. It looks like Gilgamesh was something that was in broad circulation at the time."

How would you know if "Gilgamesh" borrowed from "Abraham" or not? Consider it carefully.

 

[Jagella]

Because I know of well documented miraculous cures. Everybody should understand to expect the natural workings of karma. Medical care is always the correct course.

Seeing is believing. How might I acquire one these miraculous cures you speak of? I do hope I can fare better than I did with Christian faith healers. I wonder why if these miraculous cures happen, then why is medical science ignorant of them.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Seeing is believing. How might I acquire one these miraculous cures you speak of? I do hope I can fare better than I did with Christian faith healers. I wonder why if these miraculous cures happen, then why is medical science ignorant of them.

Because there is no money to earn in healing by abilities, the medical science only want to make money, many sicknesses and disabilities could be cured in one treatment, but medical science do not see a value in non profit healing.

 

[Heyo]

In that case "mainstream Christianity" accepts that there is no life after death, no creator-God, no miraculous healings, and no Bible they can depend upon for truth. It may be just a bizarre coincidence, but almost all the Christians I know deny almost everything on my list.

By the way, I need to start a thread about that sophisticated Christianity that accepts evolution I keep hearing about but that I never see. I'm hoping that somebody can tell me where to find it.

Try the Vatican - or one of its branches. I bet there is an RCC in driving distance.
Alternatively try Lutheran or Episcopalian churches.

You must be stuck somewhere in the bible belt where Southern Baptists are dominant. You've got a bad sample there. Worldwide Christianity is sophisticated, just not in that part of the US.