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Some Important Facts for the Religious (and Everybody Else)

firedragon

Veteran Member
I offered there was a talk and then offered a link to a shorter summary.

You have just read it incorrectly.

Regards Tony

Alright. Dismiss that. Please answer there question below related to your link.

Why is it that in the Qur'an whch you are bound to believe is Gods word without any choice, never say anything about the spirit being an intermediary between God and his creation?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Also why is it that in the Qur'an whch you are bound to believe is Gods word without any choice, never say anything about the spirit being an intermediary between God and his creation?

Is not that kind of strange?

I find it strange in that when I read the Quran the verses do say it is.

[Quran 16:102] Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."

[Quran 26:192] This (Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe.

[Quran 26:193] The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it

I see all the Holy books offer that in one way and another.

You have read the Kitab-i-iqan, thus you know that Baha'u'llah has offered that the Messenger receives their revelation of the Holy Spirit in one way or another, with Muhammad it was via the Angel Gabriel, with Moses the Burning Bush, with the Bab the severed head of Imam Ali and Baha’u’llah the Maid of Heaven.

So God, Holy Spirit Via Gabriel, Muhammad = Message to mankind.

I just look at the Quran with a different frame of reference.

Regards Tony
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Back a scientist said is no time.

As time is present with biological Life, living only is summarising a count.

By choice.

Hence if you decide we agree by brothers just human you changed let's count time as from 0AD.

Light says science is a clear cold gas owning no space. To be cold and clear.

Set alight it burns introduces space and light. Hence what introduced light to be enabled to live is present only.

As you human brother owned humans scientific preaching.

Behind us he said is nothing as mass is gone. As the sun gave us light. It's burning out Going away.

So why today are you lying. What human condition owning greed riches human control causes you to lie?

As I want is why just humans who should just exist and not change anything says science.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I find it strange in that when I read the Quran the verses do say it is.

[Quran 16:102] Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."

[Quran 26:192] This (Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe.

[Quran 26:193] The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it

I see all the Holy books offer that in one way and another.

You have read the Kitab-i-iqan, thus you know that Baha'u'llah has offered that the Messenger receives their revelation of the Holy Spirit in one way or another, with Muhammad it was via the Angel Gabriel, with Moses the Burning Bush, with the Bab the severed head of Imam Ali and Baha’u’llah the Maid of Heaven.

So God, Holy Spirit Via Gabriel, Muhammad = Message to mankind.

I just look at the Quran with a different frame of reference.

Regards Tony

Which verse in that says "Holy Spirit, the intermediary between God and His creation."?

He is no intermediary? He is a messenger.

You have read the Kitab-i-iqan, thus you know that Baha'u'llah has offered that the Messenger receives their revelation of the Holy Spirit in one way or another, with Muhammad it was via the Angel Gabriel, with Moses the Burning Bush, with the Bab the severed head of Imam Ali and Baha’u’llah the Maid of Heaven.

I have read it. Of course. It was you guys who motivated me to read it. But I am referring to the Qur'an.

there is no verse in the Quran that ever says any spirit or physical being is an intermediate between God and humanity. A messenger is not an intermediary. He only brings messages to humanity. An intermediary is a completely different being.

Its a Christian concept you are trying your best to impose upon other religions and the Quran so that you can appeal to the Christian audience.

Catching fish.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
And what evidence you have that those are the facts? The problem here is that none of those can be proven correct. They are only common beliefs.
Anyone who calls for proof in science has
already displayed disqualifying ignorance,
as far as the value of their opinion.

As for evidence-
The statements made have vastly more
behind them than mere opinion, but as noted,
you would not know that.

Ignorance may be chronic, but its not
incurable. Or, charming, ftm.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I personally find exploring ancient religions or the idea of paleolithic religion really interesting but like you said very speculative.

It's fun to think about what our ancient ancestors may of believed but we will probably never know. Heck even more modern pagan/polytheistic traditions tend to have a lot of speculation. A good portion of the religious practices from the past were just not written down and I am talking recently. Something that I think is fun to think about as an example is how did ancient Greeks actually feel about their gods? On the surface you might say they took them very seriously but even a little bit of digging further down demonstrates that the answer is probably not that straight forward.

One of the most common things pointed to as the beginning of religious practice is burial. This makes a number of assumptions that you could never really prove. Who is to say that when a member of a tribe died but wasn't buried before that there wasn't some ritual performed? Who is to say what these people believed about death? Add this to the fact that because of the cultural bias towards settled civilization we tend to ignore what came before and assume the default best option / thought came about after settlement.

It seems to me that basing whether or not you take religion seriously on the idea that older people did it differently is a bit silly.

What do you mean by taking it seriously?

A lot of religions proved serious as smallpox for
anyone outside, and many inside.


Serious like what? True? Useful?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Some Important Facts for the Religious (and Everybody Else)
  1. The observable cosmos is 13.6 billion years old and has evolved into its present form.
  2. The earth is 4.6 billion years old and along with the rest of the solar system formed under gravity from a cloud of dust and gas in space.
  3. There no evidence that any consciousness can function without a living, physical brain.
  4. Humans and chimpanzees have a common ancestor, and we split off from that ancestor six million years ago in Africa.
  5. Prehistoric religion goes back at least thirty thousand years.
  6. Historic religion started about five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia and Egypt.
  7. The oldest religion practiced today is Hinduism.
  8. The creation stories in Genesis 1-2 are taken from Babylonian mythology.
  9. No religious or spiritual healer has ever been proved to have genuine healing powers although many of them have been exposed as frauds.
There are many more such facts, but my point is that if you know what's going on, then you know better than to believe what religion claims.

Clara Tea's opinion:

UNIVERSE'S AGE:

Ask Ethan: How do we know the universe is 13.8 billion years old?

The universe is 13.8 billion years give or take 1%, using Friedmann's Equation (from quantum mechanics), not 3.6. (source above)

Apparently, Miss Universe lied about her age (but only about 200,000,000 years off), and younger, of course. We'll find out when she applies for social security.

But, science doesn't assert that this is the final answer. It leaves open the possibilty that some other theory could change it.

The entire universe is not visible, since the metric of space (like a chess board grid) is stretching faster than the speed of light. Nothing can cross that grid (according to mainstream theory) faster than the speed of light.

The age of the universe is also confirmed by variable stars, which are known to pulse at a fixed rate, due to internal pressure due to their mass. This means that even if the variable star appears to pulse slower (slowed by time dilation due to extreme gravitational fields, according to general relativity), they can still be used to determine how fast the stars are moving (due to the shift), and that is an indication of how far away they are. On the Hertsprung-Russel diagram, the acceleration of the universe is apparent due to these variable stars.

EARTH'S AGE:

The earth and solar system was not formed from merely a cloud of dust and gas. Rather, the heavy elements of earth are theorized to have formed in supernova explosions. Otherwise, such heavy elements could not be produced by the big bang. I wonder if the extreme pressure of the big bang could have made those heavy elements, and maybe some day scientists will have to modify their opinions? The age of the earth is measured by radioactive dating. In other words, the solar system (including earth) is currently said to be made of recycled matter that used to be part of a star. But theories change.

Dr. Virginia Trimble, cosmologist of UC, Irvine, married Dr. Weber, a renowned physicist who is credited for the creation of the first gravity wave detector (which no one could duplicate, so didn't originally give him credit). She was his very very very much younger student. She said that Dr. Weber suggested that she dates the explosion of the crab nebula's super-nova by measuring the doppler shift (because it is close enough to do so). She succeeded. Dating old things was her specialty. The crab nebula is Tau X-1, which is the first X-ray source measured in space, and it is called Tau because it is in the constellation Taurus. All of the signs of the zodiac are on the ecliptic (the path that the sun takes through the sky).

PROOF OF CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT A HUMAN BRAIN:

What about an animal brain? What about a tiny fish in an aquarium that doesn't hide when the owner comes in the room, but hides when strangers come in. It is smart enough to know a friend, and it isn't just about food (probably).

Dr. Jessica Utts, UC Davis (at the time), cooperated with SRI (Stanford Research Institute, part of Stanford University) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and later the project was taken over by SAIC (a republican private think tank started by Iran Contra scandal generals who were given billions of dollars of US money to do research). Dr. Utts proved that ESP was real. She is a statistician, and was head of her department at UC Irvine (her current locale). Psychics insist that they grab info out of the thin blue sky. If so, there is some form of thought or fact storage in the form of psychic energy. Could that be the stuff that God is made of? Could God tap into that same information? Some psychics claim to contact dead people or spirits or angels, or even God. Can we prove that they didn't, knowing that ESP has been proven to be real?

HUMANS AND CHIMPS HAVE COMMON ANCESTOR:

Have you seen my sister? If that doesn't convince you.....

PREHISTORIC RELIGION:

Neanderthals were buried in what appears to have been a ritual, with arms crossed. Maybe that indicates religion? That's what current scientists think, but that might be stretching known facts.

HEALING POWERS PROVEN? MANY FRAUDS?

Yet, the government hires psychics. The CIA, the police, etc., hire psychics to aid in solving murders and finding things. My friend was employed by the CIA to find a sunken Russian nuclear submarine (which she did). She was also a docent at ARE (Edgar Cayce's Association of Research and Enllightenment). While there are many frauds, there are also many legitimate psychics.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It does lend attention to an inate awareness of every living and non living forms of matter. Like the concept of Gaia for instance. An awareness that spans far beyond the human experience.

It's why I talk to the universe and yell at inanimate objects at times. *grin*

Are you sure such beIefs and behaviour are
like, sane?
 

Follower7

Member
Anyone who calls for proof in science has
already displayed disqualifying ignorance,
as far as the value of their opinion.

As for evidence-
The statements made have vastly more
behind them than mere opinion, but as noted,
you would not know that.

Ignorance may be chronic, but its not
incurable. Or, charming, ftm.

Sticks & Stones. Your response is kind of infantile don't you think? Everyone's opinion is valid & valued. But, apparently not for the oversensitive name calling types?
As far as ignorance is concerned, you sure are projecting. Have some more of that cool aid & chill out. This is a discussion, not a war.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Sticks & Stones. Your response is kind of infantile don't you think? Everyone's opinion is valid & valued. But, apparently not for the oversensitive name calling types?
As far as ignorance is concerned, you sure are projecting. Have some more of that cool aid & chill out. This is a discussion, not a war.

What, you think "proof" is meaningful
in science?
If you have info contrary to what I said,
state it.
A discussion involves more than personal
remarks and just making things up.
 

Follower7

Member
What, you think "proof" is meaningful
in science? What, you think it is meaningless?
If you have info contrary to what I said,
state it. Already did.
A discussion involves more than personal
remarks and just making things up. That's what I said.

Please go find someone else to play with.


 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
  1. The observable cosmos is 13.6 billion years old and has evolved into its present form.
  2. The earth is 4.6 billion years old and along with the rest of the solar system formed under gravity from a cloud of dust and gas in space.
  3. There no evidence that any consciousness can function without a living, physical brain.
  4. Humans and chimpanzees have a common ancestor, and we split off from that ancestor six million years ago in Africa.
  5. Prehistoric religion goes back at least thirty thousand years.
  6. Historic religion started about five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia and Egypt.
  7. The oldest religion practiced today is Hinduism.
  8. The creation stories in Genesis 1-2 are taken from Babylonian mythology.
  9. No religious or spiritual healer has ever been proved to have genuine healing powers although many of them have been exposed as frauds.
There are many more such facts, but my point is that if you know what's going on, then you know better than to believe what religion claims.

What does "religion" claim? More specifically, what does my religion claim that contradicts any of your "facts" on this list?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
  1. The observable cosmos is 13.6 billion years old and has evolved into its present form.
  2. The earth is 4.6 billion years old and along with the rest of the solar system formed under gravity from a cloud of dust and gas in space.
  3. There no evidence that any consciousness can function without a living, physical brain.
  4. Humans and chimpanzees have a common ancestor, and we split off from that ancestor six million years ago in Africa.
  5. Prehistoric religion goes back at least thirty thousand years.
  6. Historic religion started about five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia and Egypt.
  7. The oldest religion practiced today is Hinduism.
  8. The creation stories in Genesis 1-2 are taken from Babylonian mythology.
  9. No religious or spiritual healer has ever been proved to have genuine healing powers although many of them have been exposed as frauds.
There are many more such facts, but my point is that if you know what's going on, then you know better than to believe what religion claims.

I have no reason to disagree with any of that, but are those reasons to avoid religion? They're not mine. Once one rejects the claims of theism for insufficiency of supportive evidence, which can be done knowing none of the things you listed, what reason is left to embrace any of its religions? Not for meaning, purpose, moral direction, answers about reality, comfort, or community.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
@sun rise, @dybmh, @Twilight Hue

I don't get your objections. What is your evidence? (And no, the so-called "reincarnation evidence" isn't evidence for disembodied consciousness.)

I'll let these three answer for themselves, but...
  1. We have not defined consciousness for the purpose of this discussion. Eastern and western views of what consciousness is have some disparity between them.
  2. Lack of objective evidence is not the same as "no evidence." There are those that have experiential evidence of "disembodied consciousness," therefore, these testimonies can be considered evidence. It certainly is in a court of law when there is no objective evidence.
  3. It's foolish to say that just because there is a lack of evidence for something means it it cannot be, especially in light of individual testimony.
 
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