What does "who this is" mean? You?
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Some people are preordained to be destroyed by fire on the day of judgement (Revelation 13:8).
- Thread starter XIII-Legion
- Start date
What does "who this is" mean? You?
Are you my judge?
XIII-Legion
Member
Barack Obama.
Obama has no way to escape judgement day, and God has no mercy on his soul.
Amen. (Revelation 20:15).
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McBell
Unbound
Is is speaking for God or as god?
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
"Societal Retribution" means to implement a "death penalty" upon all that suit a morally reprehensible crime/conviction with a "societal" imposition of finality and death, which I support.
Well, if you see yourself as "moral" you should.
In those terms, no.
To follow a "divine entity" to exact any ultimate justice, which by very definition exceeds any and all "understanding" by we mere mortal creatures, can choose to obey "man's laws".
"Man" however, CAN also choose to both define and rid itself from those that deliberately exclude themselves from the measures of humanity and a mortal existence. Nothing in the OT that either excludes nor prevents that...
...just saying.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
Legion,
You are absolutely correct when you say that the Bible says some will be destroyed. The point that many miss, is that no one is preordained to destruction, a person can repent, turn around and be saved. It is not that ant people are foreordained to death, but that some are, not any particular ones.
The Bible tells us that we must endure to the end to be saved. Any person can be in a saved condition all his life, and fall away just before death, and a person could be out of God's favor all his life, and repent just before death, and be saved. This principle is stated three times, in the Bible, Ezekiel 3:16-21, 18:21-24, 33:7-16.
The Bible tells us that God is righteous in every way. It would not be righteous to condemn a person to death before he deserves it, Deut 32:4, Job 34:10.
That is pretty great you think you have the right list but I found the real true list and everyone is on it. All will be saved.
No. It's God's will that all be saved. Saying that God predestines certain people to Hell is to deny that He loves us and wishes that we be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Matthew 18:
10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[d] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[e] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
We all have our names written in the Book of Life, but we can choose to erase our names from that book by rejecting God's offer of salvation. God has preordained us for Heaven. If we choose to accept that offer and work with Him, then that preordination becomes predestination.
Hell was never intended for us, but only for the devil and his angels. See Matthew 25:41--
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
That was written about 100 lifespans ago, and it seems XIII we are living nowhere near to the time that it was written. Many copies of Revelation dry-rotted over a thousand years ago! It is a waste of time to try and put all of the stuff in that book into the future. You are wasting your time. The time was near. We are far away. Our time is far, far away from that time.
No, to be "moral" means to refuse or resist President Obama's attempt to "recruit" such a foreign national into US politics.
But on the other hand, it would be IMMORAL to expect a foreign national to leave his country behind to immigrate to the USA with the express purpose to run for office.
Think about it. If God had wanted such a person to run for office in America, surely it stands to reason such a person would've been born in the USA instead of some other place. If God is all-powerful he could easily have arranged for such a person to be born in America instead of some other country.
Evidently, God never intended such a person to be American, nor to run for office in the USA; otherwise, s/he would've been born in America, and there would be no conflict of interest, cultural difference or ideological contention.
And I don't give a damn about what Rowan Williams said; for his interpretation of resisting God's will is nothing but his own opinion; but you have to seriously ask how it can be against God's will to refuse President Obama's invite to run for office in America; especially if such a person is a foreign national, is not an American citizen, has been singled out from the rest of the crowd, but doesn't like your country at all.
So to hell with Obama's agenda; and to hell with the Archbishop.
Just get it through your thick skull such a person will never set foot on American soil, s/he is not American, and will never run for office in your god-forsaken country.
This is the best MORAL advice and argument I can give you. So take it or leave it.
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Responding to the above seemingly political post: USA is a very mixed blood country. I think for our next president we should have a Scotsman. We have a lot of native Scotsmen here. Wouldn't that just be savagely entertaining to have a Scottish president here in the USA? He'd win the vote by a 'Wee margin'.
How about an Iroquois? Talk about the end of the world!
How about an Iroquois? Talk about the end of the world!
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Responding to the above seemingly political post: USA is a very mixed blood country. I think for our next president we should have a Scotsman. We have a lot of native Scotsmen here. Wouldn't that just be savagely entertaining to have a Scottish president here in the USA? He'd win the vote by a 'Wee margin'.
Thank you for divulging your background; but this is nonsense.
You're obviously not referring to Scots people. Why would a Scotsman win a US presidential election by a slight margin in light of the fact Obama won the 2008 election by a considerable margin despite the fact he's a minority?
To win by a 'split decision' would be reminiscent of JFK's election in 1960; but Catholics would no longer be considered a 'minority' in the 21st century.
However, non-white minorities may still encounter the same resistance, prejudice, and opposition now as JFK did back in 1960.
Although American voters have a right to choose or reject a candidate based on whatever grounds, they don't have a 'right' to comment on the reasons behind it; for the 1st Amendment is not necessarily consistent, and concordant with God's law, and God's will.
Secular law is not the same as religious law (or God's will); and God doesn't need to justify what He does in front of the creation before He destroys it.
However, it would be incorrect to assume that Christian voters are the only ones who would oppose minorities in a US presidential election; for the holocaust in Revelation 20:15 is not the exclusive reserve of Christians only, but all people will stand in judgement before God on the last day.
The atonement of Christ implies that Jesus will be God's spokesman on the day of judgement. God's will and the will of Jesus are one and the same. (Revelation 13:8).
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Omtita
Almost Always Right
Not preordained. It is important to understand that when the Bible refers to the founding of the world it doesn't mean the creation of Earth. The Greek kataboles literally means "throwing down [of seed]." When Jesus mentioned Abel as living in the founding of the world he was talking about Abel as being a child of Adam and Eve, living in the world of mankind. The events that are taking place during the "founding of the world" are human events after creation. (Luke 11:48-51 / Matthew 25:34 / Revelation 13:8; 17:8 / Hebrews 9:26) Paul makes it clear that the act of creation was finished from the founding of the world at Hebrews 4:3. The seed that was thrown down was the beginning of mankind in the wake of the sin of Adam. Genesis 3:15 refers to the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent in a figurative sense that is repeated throughout the Bible as the offspring of the serpent, Satan, as those against God and the seed of the woman as those being for God, as a spiritual bride. (Matthew 23:33 / Revelation 21:2) God's plan for the messiah was first mentioned there at Genesis 3:15.
Perhaps you would be interested in my article on Determinism / Free will which addresses the question of predestination?
The fact is that Christians here in the USA are wrong to treat black skinned people differently than white skinned people. They were wrong to invade and to conquer the natives who lived here before themselves. Manifest Destiny was wrong. Fear and loathing of homosexuals is wrong. (Even teasing Scottish people is slightly wrong, but sometimes it seems appropriate.)
ha ha good joke using Revelation as some kind of prognostication device. Lets be serious again though and return to a serious point of view. As has been pointed out, the book Revelation is so very, very old that it is not talking about events in the future or anytime in the recent past, such as in the last 1900 years or so. Chapter 1 verse 1 says the book is about "...what must soon take place..." not what must take place after 2014 years. Not even about things happening in 1942-1947, because that is not soon. Soon means soon, and it doesn't mean 100 lifetimes later. If I spend my whole life waiting for someone who says they will be back soon, and I die waiting then they do not really come back 'Soon'. That is not what soon means. Soon means soon.
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InChrist
Free4ever
I don't agree that this passage is clear that some individuals are preordained to be destroyed on the day of judgement. First, because that concept goes against God's character and the entirety of scripture where it is abundantly clear He desires all to come to repentance and be saved. Secondly, the isolated verse you are pointing to says nothing about "why" some names are not written in the book (although it seems obvious that those individuals are worshipping the beast who blasphemes God). Yet there are other passages in the scriptures which do clarify this and give further insight into the book of life and the reason some names are not there...and it is not due to predestination.
"Several verses speak of God blotting or not blotting names out of the book of life: I will not blot out his name out of the book of life (Rv 3:5); God shall take away his part out of the book of life (Rv 22:19); ...if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.... Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Ex 32:32,33). These references to blotting out of the book of life allow only two possibilities: 1) everyones name is written in the book of life from eternity past, indicating Gods desire for all to be saved, until they have irrevocably rejected Christ, when their name is blotted out; or 2) when a person gets saved, his name is placed in the book of life for the first time, and when He later turns against Christ, his name is blotted out. Neither of these fits Calvinism. The first denies that God only intends to save a select elect, and the second denies the eternal security of the redeemed.
References to those whose names are in the book of life (Phil:4:3; Rv 21:27) and those whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rv 13:8; 17:8; 20:15)offer no clue as to how or why names are written or are not written there. They only tell us that at the end of history, some names will be found, and some names will not be found written therein. But the fact that names can be and in fact are blotted out of the book of life is clear.
Of the two alternatives above, since the second one, which allows for some of the redeemed to lose their salvation, contradicts Christs clear promise (shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death unto life - Jn:5:24), we must opt for the first. Comparing all of the verses, we can only conclude that, in keeping with Gods desire that all be saved, from eternity past every persons name is written in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from before the foundation of the world. Whose names are blotted out? The names of those who refuse to yield to the wooing of the Holy Spirit. For this sin, there is no forgiveness (Mk 3:28; Lk 12:10).
Thus there is nothing in what Scripture says about the book of life to give any comfort to Calvinists, but only discomfort."
Why does Revelation 17:8 (and maybe Revelation 13:8, depending on the translation used) refer to those whose names were not written in the book of life from the creation of the world...?
Question: Why does Revelation 17:8 (and maybe Revelation 13:8, depending on the translation used) refer to those
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Thank you for shouting the crazy out loud.
All I can offer at this point, is your own testament, happily revealed above.
All I can offer in rebuttal is that the majority of voting Americans, in the last two elections running, is that "conservative" candidates LOST, and not by only significant margins...
..so to ever claim that you choose to speak for the "majority" of Americans, is just plain dumb stupid.
Unless of course you choose to speak for the Almighty as the ultimate authority, in which case we might fairly assume you are WRONG,
Amen.
Kelvin.Max
caelitus mihi vires
LOL. But you're presumptuous to say it.
Because we don't care about your country, which is not our country at all.
So then, do you presume to know God better than Jesus?
But how can a mere mortal such as you are pretend to know God better than His Son Jesus? (John 5:22-23, 5:27-30, 14:6).
FYI, what happened last night outside the Birdlip dormitories at Oxstall's Campus is a sheer sign of desperation on your part - as well as desperation by your immediate entourage - because it's a long shot with negligible chance of ever succeeding, and you know it.
But what makes you think you can "sell" something that won't sell in the first place?
And what makes you think you can "sell" something I don't want?
As if to say a mere mortal like you can somehow change God's purpose, and change the entire course of history of God's plan?
But how do you presume to change my attitude if I don't want to change my attitude?
And how do you presume to survive the last judgement unless I change my attitude?
But how desperate and pathetic you must be to rely on such "soft power", which is only real in a negative (repellent) sense?
So then, you remind me of James Stewart and the Church H.Q. in Cardiff.
But how do you presume that "I must, and will come to the True Parents" if I don't want to go back to the church?
Fair comment (analogy) or not?
But of course you must know the history behind the church and my heretofore conversation with Stewart.
But do you see any sign at all that I would ever go back to the church?
No of course not!
So how then do you presume you would survive the last judgement given that you have no chance to ever change my attitude on this point?
PS. And what good is your soft power when it's negative instead of positive; which means you will simply dig your own grave by persisting, and the hangman's noose will be ever tight around your neck. But your persistence - and that of your entourage - will make me all the more resolved to execute God's judgement on the day of final reckoning. (Revelation 21:8).
By all means continue to do what you will and laugh as much as you want. But when the time comes I will have the last laugh. (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21; John 5:22-23, 5:27-30, 10:9, 14:6; Revelation 13:8, 20:15, 21:8)
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We need not (and should not!) take everything written in the bible as literally true. We are under no instruction to do so, nor are we under any compunction to do so. We are free to take from the bible what we find inspirational and wrestle with the rest. Revelation is a highly metaphoric writing, and not to be taken literalistically. Too many people take Revelation way too seriously. It leads to too many wacko theological constructions. Like some of them presented here.
we-live-now
Active Member
I completely agree. ALL of the old creation will be destroyed by God's HOLY fire. It is happening right now. It's called "death" and its the mysterious way God fulfills his perfect law and causes us to be born again as his sons (and daughters). Anything under his law that is NOT himself must and WILL DIE by his holy "fire".
The actual word for "fire" in the Bible is pur and it really means to purify or refine. God's Holy fire is not like the natural fire we are used to that is destructive. God's fire is perfect and it makes all things that come into contact with it just like itself.
Contrary to what we have been taught about God (that isn't true) ALL of us will be "salted" and purified with his Holy fire. See Mark 9:49.
For everyone will be salted with fire Mark 9:49
Look at the definition of the word "fire". Its the same as the lake of "fire". It is not a literal fire like we think, it is a spiritual fire which are the trials a person goes through and spiritual testing.
Strong's Concordance # 4442
pur: fire
Original Word: πῦρ, πυρός, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pur
Phonetic Spelling: (poor)
Short Definition: fire, trials
Definition: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.
Please notice that the word "believers" is irrelevant. Everyone whether they "believe" or not will be "salted" and purified in his fire. Believers who are part of his body now are in his fire now in this life. The rest WILL follow. This is what causes us to turn to him and for his seed inside to take "root" and grow. This, my friend is the TRULY good news the Bible says and the World needs to hear. God IS love and perfect love casts OUT fear.
God bless.
Duane