Some thoughts about the usual motivations of Christianity and Islaam in practice

[Buddha Dharma]

@LuisDantas I do have a thought for you, since going through some of the comments in this thread.

The Quran may appear to make blanket statements about believers and non-believers, but I'm not sure how true to the context such a reading is. The Quran has a definite historical context, and indeed setting in many instances.

The text documents actual conflicts the Muslims had to fight in defense, and sometimes such passages are advising about that. This is made even stronger when considered the Quran was compiled from repeating what Muhammad said. Therefore, it can be easy to not infer such a context.

A good example of a passage frequently misused is in Surah 9. The one that says slay the polytheists. That's in a historical context, and scholars of the Quran know it is. Because Muslims and Hindus have even intermarried for several centuries now.

Some scholars wrongfully stir up antagonism against Hindus to be sure, but how could something in a historical context be talking about all polytheists? See what I mean?

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are a lot of misconceptions about what Islam stands for. Mostly the misunderstandings have arisen from terrorist attacks, clergy or a biased reading of Islam given the West by Christian missionaries.

Firstly, the Umayyads and Abbasids did not represent Islam but went against the specific laws of the Quran which only permits defensive warfare, and they embarked on a killing and conquering campaign for wealth and power. These are current day Sunnis.

The Quran in reality teaches tolerance towards all Faiths and ‘no compulsion in religion’. Other passages indicate love for Christians. Muhammad loved Christians and instituted Covenants with them in which Muslims are told to grant them full freedom to practise their religion and even to assist them for free to repair and build their churches.

This is a fascinating read and quite contrary to the misinformation being spread about Islam in the west.

Prophet Muhammad's Letter to Monks of St. Catherine Monastery

Disobedience to the Quran or Bible does not make these Holy Books complicit in wars, bloodshed or murders committed by those who claim to be followers. The Quran clearly in Sura 2:190 permits only self defense and the Gospels teach love.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Buddha Dharma , I have been very consistently told by Muslims that the Qur'an's message is understood to be eternally valid (as opposed to localized to the time and place of its writing) and also that Muslims (and above all Muslim women) can't really marry people who are not "of the book", meaning Abrahamic beliefs. Or, for women, only Muslims.

Have you learned differently?

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Have you learned differently?

I've had it explained to me and easily inferred from reading the Quran myself that it is in a historical context when it talks about warfare conditions. What else could the Quran be talking about when it says things like remember when you took a treaty of peace from among the disbelievers? and other such statements? These relate to a historical event that actually happened, do they not?

 

[LuisDantas]

@loverofhumanity , there is an easily-abused danger in the idea of self-defense when it is taught alongside an image of unfair persecution.

 

[LuisDantas]

I've had it explained to me and easily inferred from reading the Quran myself that it is in a historical context when it talks about warfare conditions. What else could the Quran be talking about when it says things like remember when you took a treaty of peace from among the disbelievers? and other such statements? These relate to a historical event that actually happened, do they not?

Far as I can tell, the marriage restrictions at the very least remain current.

The Qur'an actually denounces innovation ("bidah") as deviation from the right path.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Far as I can tell, the marriage restrictions at the very least remain current.

That they may, but I am not certain because I know there's been attempts to clarify by both Sunni and Shi'ite scholars on these matters.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

@LuisDantas I certainly wouldn't want to underplay the very serious problem of fanatics. It is a problem. However, I try to be extremely careful when talking about Islam because Muslims are not all bad people. There are people in my country at present, including President Trump himself- that judge all Muslims by the fanatics.

I don't deny the problematic aspects exist, and I don't think I'm being merely politically correct when I take care for some of our citizens that happen to be practicing Muslims. I live in a culture very infused with fear at the moment and I try not to encourage that.

I won't go into what I think a Buddhist's responsibility is toward his fellow creatures. I'll stick to the subject.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity , there is an easily-abused danger in the idea of self-defense when it is taught alongside an image of unfair persecution.

Any organisation religious or otherwise can abuse its power. Politics is perhaps the most ‘persecuted’ of all codes continually blaming the ‘opposition’ instead of acknowledging its mistakes.


It’s unfortunately , the immaturity of humanity to often not want to accept responsibility for our deeds. Whatever religion, race or nationality, we are each responsible for our doings.

So you make a good point about some trying to make up a pretext of being persecuted in order to avoid accepting responsibility and so we must be vigilant and just in these matters and ensure that we read the reality of any such claims, correctly.

 

[LuisDantas]

That they may, but I am not certain because I know there's been attempts to clarify by both Sunni and Shi'ite scholars on these matters.

There is certainly no shortage of attempts at clarifying Islaamic doctrine. Muhammad himself famously once asked for writing tools for that very purpose, shortly before his death (interestingly, he was denied his wish).

Still, I find it most unlikely that such a obsolescence of marriage restrictions would not have been mentioned in clear, unambiguous terms if it were well consolidated.

On the contrary, what I have read very consistently reaffirms, for instance, that a Muslim woman whose husband leaves Islaam is expected to divorce.him unless he converts back within a short timeframe.

 

[Sunstone]

Something else that occurs to me is that this craving for influence is one major reason why Christians and Muslims have such a hard time in accepting the existence of unbelievers.

The narrative of unfairness and persecution does not mesh at all well with the admission that people are entitled to disagree with their articles of faith, which are after all arbitrary beliefs.

Spot on!

 

[Buddha Dharma]

On the contrary, what I have read very consistently reaffirms, for instance, that a Muslim woman whose husband leaves Islaam is expected to divorce.him unless he converts back within a short timeframe.

I'd be curious to know if the Quran says that, or Hadith. I don't deny you read it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

@LuisDantas is one of those little brothers that annoy me but he is an highly intelligent guy. Very smart, very opinionated but sometimes he makes brash comments......

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have seen it argued plenty of times, by Christians, that since the bible says they will be persecuted that it justifies their beliefs. Anytime a person says they are wrong, ignorant or whatever, they can always point to the bible that it says its prophesied that they will be hated for their beliefs. Similarly they use the fact that their is war and disease, and say, see, the end of times. Christianity can be to the brink of extinction and each individual sect will claim to be the last church as everyone else has fallen from truth. This losing battle of Christianity only intensifies their belief to accept bullying and a type of psychological martyrism(I just made that word up). Couple that with Christianities scapegoat philosophy where humans are to look at themselves as inherently corrupt just fuels the fire. Its like a badge of honor to be ridiculed with that sort of philosophy and only further proves everyone else corruption just to even tell them anything about it.

Islam has similar beliefs of the end of days where there will be increased corruption in the world and rejection of Hadith and that Islam will fall into cruelty, faithful people will be called traitors, honest people disbelieved, cruelty towards Muslims etc.

All these type of philosophies, IMO, justify a persecution complex to only strengthen their personal beliefs. So you can't even tell any of them anything without them being more justified, cause see, the sacred texts said you would call them stupid, how great is God. Thats my "humble" opinion on the issue.

That’s called religious fanaticism when a person’s mind can no longer reflect or reason, but only dogmatically assert.

Closed mindedness is an enormous barrier and obstacle to world peace because in their current state fanatics, not all religionists, who control the religions, continue to claim superiority and supremacy over non believers.

So I am ‘unclean’ or ‘diseased’ or an ‘infidel’ or ‘heathen’ instead of an equal fellow human being. What unspeakable damage this truly unreligious attitude has done to human relations and relations between nations and religions.

We can only fight darkness with light and this ignorance by spreading everywhere the concept of the equality of all human beings regardless of religion or no religion or race or nationality.

Light will always banish darkness and education destroy ignorance. We, humanity are one human family no matter what anyone says.

 

[12jtartar]

I recently learned of "The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom", by Candida Moss.

It gave me quite some food for thought. It was already quite apparent that many Christians are much too eager to position themselves as "persecuted", but I had not realized quite how mainstream that trait has been historically.

There is a perverse yet effective irony at work there. By being encouraged to perceive themselves as wronged people, Christians (and Muslims) all too often end up oblivious to their own abuses of trust and power. Peer reinforcement and plain confort of convenience blunt their self-awareness to the point of full alienation and delusion. Both Christians and Muslims have a long history of acquiring and brandishing both military and political power even as they keep complaining of being misunderstood, persecuted and discriminated against, sometimes bordering on self-parody.

If anything, Islaam suffers from the same defects to an even greater degree. It has been noted that the Qur'ans attitude towards non-believers is consistently arrogant and hypocritical. According to Bill Warner, slightly over half of the Qur'an, Sira and Hadith are actually about non-Muslims. (Source: Kafir with a Capital K - Political Islam )

And indeed, the typical attitude of Muslim apologists is very often and very predictably one based on the assumption that Islaam inherently deserves better than whatever the current situation warrants it... despite the plain fact that Islaamic people have attained power very often in very large communities over continental expanses of land, far too often drawing a lot of blood while at it. We are often reminded that ISIS and other plainly violent groups have Muslim victims, and we are often pressured towards raising doubt on whether those groups should be considered Muslims at all.

Those are marks of adherents of doctrines that teach people to avoid responsibility over their own beliefs and to prefer to take refuge in audacity, arrogance, denial and just plain irresponsibility. By framing their cravings and fears as some form of piety - often enough necessary piety for the "protection of the oppressed" no less, and supposedly in an attempt at pleasing "the one and only God" for good measure - those doctrines create a most impressive trap that impedes its people from actually growing in the spiritual sense.

Cravings for more power, more protection from criticism and more promises of simply deserving better are of course all too human and understandable. But I don't think that they should be raised to actual articles of faith, and definitely not given routine passes simply because people claim to be receiving directives from God.

Of course, both Islaam and Christianity number into the billions and have plenty of true rebels against those waves of immature conformity to the appearance of rebellion. But those waves are still the movers and shakers for the influence of both doctrines, and it is difficult to create meaningful renewal against those fears and cravings.

How accurate do you think these thoughts are? Do you want to contribute any related thoughts?

LuisDantas,
I would say that you hit a home run, as you show much wisdom.
There is just one thing I must disagree with you. You spoke about Christians as doing all the things that are recognized as bad, by all civilized people. Where you are wrong is; there are requirements that must be fulfilled, to actually be a Christian. Since the ones that you have spoken about do not qualify as Christians. These are nominal Christians, name only Christians.
God hates hypocrits, even more than heathens, because these people who claim to be Christian, cause people of other beliefs to blaspheme the Name of God, Romans 2:23,24, because people reason that this is the way Christianity really is, when True Christianity is nothing like these hypocrits.
True Christians do NOT engage in warfare, Matthew 26:52, they do not lie,Ephesians 4:17-25, do not steal, Ephesians 4:28, Hebrews 13:18. Another thing that you seem to overlook; the Bible says that all nations will hate true Christians, Matthew 10:22, 24:9, John 15:17-21.
Consider what the Bible says about the difference between a True Christian and a hypocrits, Luke 6:21-26, 27-31.
Nominal Christians cannot even be compared to True Christians, Titus 2:11-15.

 

[LuisDantas]

@LuisDantas is one of those little brothers that annoy me but he is an highly intelligent guy. Very smart, very opinionated but sometimes he makes brash comments......

Thanks. You are of course welcome to point out any unfairnesses, mistakes or comments you might know of.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I recently learned of "The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom", by Candida Moss.

It gave me quite some food for thought. It was already quite apparent that many Christians are much too eager to position themselves as "persecuted", but I had not realized quite how mainstream that trait has been historically.

There is a perverse yet effective irony at work there. By being encouraged to perceive themselves as wronged people, Christians (and Muslims) all too often end up oblivious to their own abuses of trust and power. Peer reinforcement and plain confort of convenience blunt their self-awareness to the point of full alienation and delusion. Both Christians and Muslims have a long history of acquiring and brandishing both military and political power even as they keep complaining of being misunderstood, persecuted and discriminated against, sometimes bordering on self-parody.

If anything, Islaam suffers from the same defects to an even greater degree. It has been noted that the Qur'ans attitude towards non-believers is consistently arrogant and hypocritical. According to Bill Warner, slightly over half of the Qur'an, Sira and Hadith are actually about non-Muslims. (Source: Kafir with a Capital K - Political Islam )

And indeed, the typical attitude of Muslim apologists is very often and very predictably one based on the assumption that Islaam inherently deserves better than whatever the current situation warrants it... despite the plain fact that Islaamic people have attained power very often in very large communities over continental expanses of land, far too often drawing a lot of blood while at it. We are often reminded that ISIS and other plainly violent groups have Muslim victims, and we are often pressured towards raising doubt on whether those groups should be considered Muslims at all.

Those are marks of adherents of doctrines that teach people to avoid responsibility over their own beliefs and to prefer to take refuge in audacity, arrogance, denial and just plain irresponsibility. By framing their cravings and fears as some form of piety - often enough necessary piety for the "protection of the oppressed" no less, and supposedly in an attempt at pleasing "the one and only God" for good measure - those doctrines create a most impressive trap that impedes its people from actually growing in the spiritual sense.

Cravings for more power, more protection from criticism and more promises of simply deserving better are of course all too human and understandable. But I don't think that they should be raised to actual articles of faith, and definitely not given routine passes simply because people claim to be receiving directives from God.

Of course, both Islaam and Christianity number into the billions and have plenty of true rebels against those waves of immature conformity to the appearance of rebellion. But those waves are still the movers and shakers for the influence of both doctrines, and it is difficult to create meaningful renewal against those fears and cravings.

How accurate do you think these thoughts are? Do you want to contribute any related thoughts?

Hundreds of thousands of African Christians have been raped and killed by war powers in recent years, China is STILL oppressing Christians brutally, and there are frequent lashings from unsaved juntas and dictators against born agains in their countries worldwide. These persecutions--in greater numbers now than in Roman times--are real.

 

[idav]

Hundreds of thousands of African Christians have been raped and killed by war powers in recent years, China is STILL oppressing Christians brutally, and there are frequent lashings from unsaved juntas and dictators against born agains in their countries worldwide. These persecutions--in greater numbers now than in Roman times--are real.

Yes and China and dictatorships are generally oppressive, I doubt it has anything to do with Christianity in those places. China has the worst civil rights in the world and women generally get harsh treatments in the type of places you named.

 

[Muffled]

I don't believe what you wrote has much to do with Christianity. I believe a lot of the flack Christians get is from a reaction to evangelism. Evangelism tends to disturb a person's comfort zone.

 

[Muffled]

It's no surprise that the early church forged stories. Heck, the biggest forged (fiction) story is the bible itself.

I believe your concept of the Bible is a forged story.