• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Some Thoughts on Catholicism and the Current State of Things

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Since the Church is/was mainly made of men, it is not surprising that it does.

So, unless there is some evidence in Scriptures that this is the case, I must conclude that this is just what the RCC made up. And they made it up, because they are probably sexist. Can you imagine the Holy Spirit whispering in the pope's ear saying "psss, man is good, woman is not. You need to have that chromosome difference to turn a wafer into the other third of Us, otherwise it will never work". C'mon, what God would ever do that?

Anyway, about the crashing down thing. Are you sure? Hasn't that ever been a case where two popes spoke ex-cathedra saying contradicting things? And even if not, the Holy Spirit could change Its mind. After all, stoning children, and forcing a raped girl to many her rapist, was Ok back then, but sort of suboptimal today, so why not?

On the contrary, I think the RCC will crush down soon if It does not do anything. So, inaction is more dangerous. You are losing people at such a rate, that you will get extinct in a generation or two, at least here in Europe, if you do not act on that.

I suggest:

1) Allowing gay couples to be blessed, or even married. I mean, if weapons get a blessing, why not people loving each others?
2) Allowing clergy to marry. Also to reduce sexual tensions going astray and causing bad press
3) Allowing women same status. Including the capability to administer the sacraments
4) Allowing condoms and other means of procreation prevention. Possibly, allow abortion, too
5 Allowing euthanasia, or assisted suicide

That should increases the chance to survive a couple of generations more. Just a modest suggestion to help, and with all due respect for your belief and the RCC, of course.

Ciao

- viole
Catholicism isn't going anywhere. Just because Europeans decided to allow their cultures and demographics to collapse, doesn't mean that all peoples have followed suit. The center of Christianity will just shift to Africa and Asia, where Christianity is robust and very conservative. We will likely get an African pope very soon.

Your suggestions just aren't going to happen, and can't happen, aside from possibly the priestly celibacy thing. The rest are just totally outside of Church dogma, and can't be changed. It's laughable to think that promoting killing babies and suicide will somehow keep a religion going. The liberal churches are all dying much faster than the traditional ones. I walk into an Episcopal parish or mainline Protestant church, and it's all white haired elderly people for the most part. My neighborhood Catholic parish has tons of young people attending Mass on Sundays, though. You can't support death and expect life. Use some logic here. :rolleyes:
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
The liberal churches are all dying much faster than the traditional ones. I walk into an Episcopal parish or mainline Protestant church, and it's all white haired elderly people for the most part.
Indeed. The mainline churches have shown us that progressive Christianity is a dead end.

We will likely get an African pope very soon.
Cardinal Sarah for pope!

Unfortunately, his age makes that unlikely.
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No. It was formulated by Constantine the emperor.
It was ordered by Constantine, but he was no theologian. Instead, roughly 1000 bishops over 1/2 century worked on that and also the canon.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Catholicism isn't going anywhere. Just because Europeans decided to allow their cultures and demographics to collapse, doesn't mean that all peoples have followed suit. The center of Christianity will just shift to Africa and Asia, where Christianity is robust and very conservative. We will likely get an African pope very soon.
Fine. I wonder what will happen when they will also be at our economical, and educational level. More importantly, what will happen when they will be safe, from wars, famines, lack of social safety nets, and all those things that might motivate humans to find some spiritual help, when nothing else helps.


Your suggestions just aren't going to happen, and can't happen, aside from possibly the priestly celibacy thing. The rest are just totally outside of Church dogma, and can't be changed. It's laughable to think that promoting killing babies and suicide will somehow keep a religion going. The liberal churches are all dying much faster than the traditional ones. I walk into an Episcopal parish or mainline Protestant church, and it's all white haired elderly people for the most part. My neighborhood Catholic parish has tons of young people attending Mass on Sundays, though. You can't support death and expect life. Use some logic here.
Well, that is probably not in Europe. Here only very old people go to Catholic churches, unless if not for tourism.

Who told you that I support death and expect life? That would be indeed irrational. Fact is, I do not. If I promote embryos termination, as I do, if the woman desires so, for sure I do not expect life because of that, whatever you mean with that.

so, probably abortion is also a bit too much, even for progressive Catholics. But birth control, and help in terminating one’s life, are becoming more and more debatable. Same with the position of women in the church. Other thongs like the incredible amount of child abuse, and the criminal cover up over the decades, the refusal to bless gay couples, and all those things that would best fit in the 16th century, are driving people away.

if you consider that in countries like Switzerland and Germany, you pay considerably less taxes if you leave the church, then I think the church itself will need to modernize, to show the value for the money, so to speak. Or we might experience the so called last stone, from the last church, falling on the heard of the last priest. At least on this part of the world. :)

ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yeah, if we take the axioms of secular liberalism for granted then this assumption makes sense. If we assume the Church sincerely believes that the male only priesthood is divine revelation then cries of sexism cease to be meaningful.
Maybe, but I wonder what is more plausible. At least from a rational point of view. Especially because, as far as I know, there is no Scriptural evidence of that.
In other words. If God exists he sees the world as a good western European.
Are there bad western Europeans? We are the light of the world :)

but not necessarily. God could exist, and the Church just made up what He might have told them long ago, for power or whatever reason, and now they cannot reverse without undermining their very system based on infallibility, and Holy Ghost inspirations. A sort of catch-22. I think that would be vastly more plausible.

i think it will be interesting to see how it ends for such an institution that seems to be still stuck in the 16th century. And I wonder why it still exists. Also considering the debate, running in the Vatican today between conservatives and “progressive”.

i really hope the arch conservatives win.

Whether or not the teachings of the current Magisterium can be completely squared with what has been authoritatively taught in the past is actually the topic of the OP. But in terms of formal ex-cathedra statements there has been no contradiction by the recent popes. Ex-cathedra infallibility has only been invoked a handful of times in the Church's two thousand year history.

As I told you, that is the catch-22. you guys are simply not resilient against disturbances or errors. You cannot possibly correct errors, even if it becomes clear they are errors. In fact, suppose, just hypothetically, that a pope in the middle age lied about the Holy Ghost inspiration of a doctrinal dogma. Any dogma. After all, popes are known to lie, like every other human being.

don’t you run the risk of erecting a structure of lies, possibly cumulating themselves over the centuries, that cannot possibly be reverted, for dogmatic reasons, even when it appears clear they are not tenable anymore? And that the accumulating tensions between this structure and the zeitgeist of the increasingly modern world, with the exception of continents that will become more modern later anyway, will result in a mighty crash?


If the Church is right, it will survive one way or the other because God promised it will. Matthew 16:17-19

If the Catholicism is a false religion then good riddance to it.

Since Matthew is shared by protestants, too. That could be generalized to the entire Christianity, not only Catholicism. Even hough, it is not infrequent to see Protestants that do not believe you are Christians. Or that you are as Christian as the Mormons. But what do they know with their thousands of different sub sects?

Number 2. could actually happen. The rest could not without the formal defection of the Church. Which (assuming Catholicism is true) God promised would never happen.
What could happen is a catholic schism in central Europe. The subject is mentioned every now and then. Now they are sort of quieter because they are fan of Francis. But for how long, since Francis does not do anything either, probably because of that catch-22 we have seen.

However, this new branch might let women also turning wafers into a 2000 years old Gods. And it could be that this branch lives longer. Or even replace the old one.

How would that defeat Matthew?

ciao

- viole
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Obviously, you believe what you want to believe. Constantine himself didn't even convert to Christianity until he was older, and it's only then he was actually baptized. He had no background in theology, which is why he called the bishops to assemble and make recommendations to him.

Here:
Character and purpose

Constantine the Great summoned the bishops of the Christian Church to Nicaea to address divisions in the Church (mosaic in Hagia Sophia, Constantinople (Istanbul), c. 1000).
The First Council of Nicaea, the first general council in the history of the Church, was convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great upon the recommendations of a synod led by Bishop Hosius of Corduba in the Eastertide of 325, or rather convened by Hosius and supported by Constantine.[18] This synod had been charged with investigation of the trouble brought about by the Arian controversy in the Greek-speaking east.[19] To most bishops, the teachings of Arius were heretical and dangerous to the salvation of souls.[20] In the summer of 325, the bishops of all provinces were summoned to Nicaea, a place reasonably accessible to many delegates. According to Warren H. Carroll, in the Council of Nicaea, "the Church had taken her first great step to define revealed doctrine more precisely in response to a challenge from a heretical theology."[21]

Attendees
Constantine had invited all 1,800 bishops of the Christian church within the Roman Empire (about 1,000 in the East and 800 in the West), but a smaller and unknown number attended. Eusebius of Caesarea counted more than 250,[22] Athanasius of Alexandria counted 318,[11] and Eustathius of Antioch estimated "about 270"[23] (all three were present at the Council). Later, Socrates Scholasticus recorded more than 300,[24] and Evagrius,[25] Hilary of Poitiers,[26] Jerome,[27] Dionysius Exiguus,[28] and Rufinus[29] each recorded 318. This number 318 is preserved in the liturgies of the Eastern Orthodox Church[30] and the Coptic Orthodox Church.[31] For some, the number is suspicious as it is the number of Abraham's servants in Genesis 14:14, and there was a polemical reason for the Nicene Fathers to imply that they were servants of Abraham, the father of the Faith.[32]

Delegates came from every region of the Roman Empire and from the Christian churches extant within the Sassanid Empire.[33] The participating bishops were given free travel to and from their episcopal sees to the Council, as well as lodging. These bishops did not travel alone; each one had permission to bring with him two priests and three deacons, so the total number of attendees could have been above 1,800. Eusebius speaks of an almost innumerable host of accompanying priests, deacons, and acolytes. A Syriac manuscript lists the names of the eastern bishops which included 22 from Coele-Syria, 19 from Syria Palaestina, 10 from Phoenicia, 6 from Arabia, others from Assyria, Mesopotamia, Persia, etc., but the distinction of bishops from presbyters had not yet formed.[34][35]...
-- First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia
 
Top