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Some thoughts on consciousness

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I don't have the qualifications or sufficient knowledge to get into this to any depth but some suggestions as to what might be relevant regarding human consciousness, and rather obviously more to do with function and natural philosophy. I find the argument that consciousness exists in everything and has always existed rather lame, and tend to see it as more just another development through evolution even if it is one of the more difficult issues to unravel.

1. This article doesn't necessarily explain consciousness explicitly but does seem to coincide with my thoughts about the evolution of consciousness, and probably gets closer to the issue, that is, that evolution played a major role in its development and involved complexity issues:

A New Theory Explains How Consciousness Evolved

Ever since Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species in 1859, evolution has been the grand unifying theory of biology. Yet one of our most important biological traits, consciousness, is rarely studied in the context of evolution. Theories of consciousness come from religion, from philosophy, from cognitive science, but not so much from evolutionary biology. Maybe that’s why so few theories have been able to tackle basic questions such as: What is the adaptive value of consciousness? When did it evolve and what animals have it? The Attention Schema Theory (AST), developed over the past five years, may be able to answer those questions. The theory suggests that consciousness arises as a solution to one of the most fundamental problems facing any nervous system: Too much information constantly flows in to be fully processed. The brain evolved increasingly sophisticated mechanisms for deeply processing a few select signals at the expense of others, and in the AST, consciousness is the ultimate result of that evolutionary sequence. If the theory is right — and that has yet to be determined — then consciousness evolved gradually over the past half billion years and is present in a range of vertebrate species.

And from Attention schema theory - Wikipedia:

The AST can be summarized in three broad points. First, the brain is an information-processing device. Second, it has a capacity to focus its processing resources more on some signals than on others. That focus may be on select, incoming sensory signals, or it may be on internal information such as specific, recalled memories. That ability to process select information in a focused manner is sometimes called attention. Third, the brain not only uses the process of attention, but it also builds a set of information, or a representation, descriptive of attention. That representation, or internal model, is the attention schema.

2. So perhaps consciousness developed from the inability to monitor the myriad activity involved in the actual workings of the brain/nervous system, and evolved so as to monitor and make sense of the most important or crucial aspects - priorities probably being (for humans) our sensory inputs, how we feel as to our physical and mental well-being, making sense of our experiences, or keeping track of our motivations and drives, etc. We know that much of our consciousness is actually unconscious (or subconscious), since we know that much is going on in our heads (and our bodies) besides our conscious thinking and feeling, but having a limited ability to monitor it all perhaps results in what is our awareness of consciousness. So perhaps consciousness is just the limited processes we experience - sensory input, memories (retrieving and making of such), processing of such (thinking or feeling), together with all the rest of the activities that make up what we experience as consciousness, and much else going on is only available when it becomes more a priority or when we use methods to observe such (as when examining the subconscious).

3. Consciousness might then be just a construct (map or model) of the priority experiences that is relatively easy for the mind to grasp rather than all the various events contributing to such - in essence then, something like AST. And just as language tends towards a construct of reality, so then consciousness itself might similarly be a construct simply to cope with the necessities of dealing with vast amounts of information. I think this article is useful at this stage:

Most Popular Theories of Consciousness Are Worse Than Wrong

4. Our reality is really a model, construct, or map of such in our minds - our world view, our beliefs, how we perceive ourselves and/or others, etc. - and one reason for seeing consciousness similarly is that it is quite difficult to change any particular perspective (gained over time) since we tend to crave stability and are usually averse to changes that might upset what we might see as our being or essence. This is apart from the resistance we often feel towards changing beliefs anyway. Hence the difficulties in overcoming many personality or mental health issues often seen - change perhaps seen more as threat (to existence of the person, which is mostly a construct too). And one can see why such is so when our construct of our self has taken so long to form and might require much work to undo what has already been built.

5. Also (if any have experienced this they might recognise such) it can be quite frightening when one's apparent perceptions are shaken by new evidence (or experiences) that tends to indicate our beliefs do not correspond so much with reality (especially concerning ourselves perhaps). This often feels like a jolt to one's being, integrity, or sense of self. This perhaps explains why so many having religious beliefs are not so amenable to accepting something which goes against their belief system - and perhaps is so for those without such beliefs too. Many go through life seeing death and destruction all around, vicious criminals at every turn, injustice as the norm, etc., whilst others will see the opposite and these factors very much as not being the norm. Many apparently will distrust science simply because much conflicts with their religiously held beliefs. Whichever view is held, it can be difficult to persuade any to change their beliefs (or system of beliefs) since often they will be selective as to what information they process in order to maintain the status quo.

6. I've never taken any illegal recreational drugs so can't comment much on what they might do to one's brain but the evidence suggests that some can cause harm, with this possibly coming from damage to any perceptions of oneself - or the shaking of the tree that is our model of reality. But what they might do to our consciousness I'll leave to others - given that the claim often made is that many do expand one's consciousness.

7. The nature of Flow experiences might be another area of interest here, where perhaps the mind closes down our conscious awareness to leave more resources for the task at hand, and where any consciousness might interfere with such. In such experiences, there is little awareness of what one is doing apart from knowing that it is usually the best that one could do in the circumstances - which I did experience once whilst rock-climbing, where hands and feet seemed to automatically be positioned without the slightest hesitation or thought given to such.

8. Another piece of evidence for our consciousness being limited is how we can often solve problems whilst asleep. I have experienced this too - mine being a technical problem whilst at college, so presumably enough of my brain was working on it to solve it during sleep. And it would make sense here in that whilst asleep perhaps more resources were available. I certainly couldn't solve it whilst awake even after spending several hours at it, and neither could the rest of the class apparently since I was the only one who did actually solve the problem.

9. The issues that have occurred with free will - coming from measuring brain signaling before action taking - might not be such an issue if consciousness involved a lot more processing to bring some things to awareness, and hence where there would always be a delay between some events. And it wouldn't be remarkable presumably to find that consciousness does involve some resources and time, given that our instinctive reactions often are faster than anything we do by conscious volition.

10. And from all the previous, it seems likely that in fact there are different levels of consciousness (as per some psychological models or as described by various religious beliefs) which simply came from evolution, and where perhaps the notion of a viewer and the viewed might apply but where such instead comes from interactions between the layers - whatever these might be. Such might give the impression of 'our self' as viewer to what passes through our consciousness (subjective theatre of experience), when it might be just the highest level giving such an impression.

11. To arrive at any theory of consciousness surely it is best to follow the trail back through evolution to see how it might have evolved in our more primitive ancestors (even if very difficult to do), and where limitations, as suggested, possibly occurred simply because of the nature of complexity and what is possible biologically and neurologically. So consciousness became such as exists for us humans now because our brains became so complex, with language probably adding the last and even more complex layer of consciousness.

12. In much earlier times perhaps (and presumably) some creatures would be conscious of many more processes within their brains and nervous systems. And this process of evolution - where some gains were made (capacity) but with some sacrifices (monitoring of such pruned) - seems eminently reasonable, to me at least. And of course this then suggests that non-human animals will likely have some form of consciousness, not as evolved as humans and differing in degree, which again accords with reality. It would be difficult to explain away much of animal behaviour if we were to assume that they were not conscious (or minimally so), especially those quite close to us in evolutionary terms, but what level of consciousness do they actually possess?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Continued.

13. Awareness and consciousness in young children might inform us, when they start to realise others have different thoughts, experiences, and behaviours than themselves. Such that awareness and consciousness perhaps too grows as they mature and is not fully formed when they are born. Hence the development of consciousness in our maturing also mirrors the consciousness growth that we have experienced as a species.

Babies Have Consciousness, Study Finds | Live Science

14. Also, the out-of-body experiences and such, might be explained better by us having a model of reality and where this can be disturbed in various ways.

15. If we do ever construct truly advanced AI computing systems, that operate so similarly to a human brain and which seems to show evidence of consciousness, it might be difficult (unless religiously inclined) to refute that the system works much like the human brain, and hence perhaps the theories that might eventually be produced about such (the human brain) being in fact correct. We have the fMRI scanner to indicate when a person is conscious and this together with other instruments might aid in our understanding of consciousness, just like the microscope and telescope opened up new areas of knowledge, and advancing into areas not thought possible previously. Many might believe that we cannot understand consciousness because it is such a part of us but I think this is a false assumption.

Scientists Closing in on Theory of Consciousness | Live Science

Recently, researchers discovered a brain area that acts as a kind of on-off switch for the brain. When they electrically stimulated this region, called the claustrum, the patient became unconscious instantly. In fact, Koch and Francis Crick, the molecular biologist who famously helped discover the double-helix structure of DNA, had previously hypothesized that this region might integrate information across different parts of the brain, like the conductor of a symphony.

16. Perhaps consciousness is much like our experience of pain - which is essentially just a feedback mechanism to deal with harm to our physical bodies - such that our awareness of consciousness may not feel much like pain but serves the same purpose and much more - to protect us from harm, to promote our well-being, and all other such considerations.

17. Another aspect concerning consciousness, as being just one layer that we experience, is the fact that we go unconscious or faint at certain times, as if such was a protective mechanism for us, and where some layer below consciousness knew better. My experience of this came as a child, when as a new boy at secondary school, I was avoiding the initiation ceremonies that some others had to undergo when my older brother was chosen instead. A fact I only connected when later at home whilst sitting alone on the floor he came up behind me and apparently tried to break my back. He pushed down on my head with all his might until I could feel my spine bowing out. At this point I fainted and went limp, presumably to avoid damage. And it seems to be the case that this happens all too often - our passing out to avoid damage, whatever that might be, to our self.

These points make the most sense, for me at least, as to consciousness simply being something functional that came from evolution, but what is actually occurring still remains, that is, the process itself, other than just being a process. Some articles worth a look:

What Actually Is Consciousness, and How Did It Evolve?
10 Problems With Consciousness
Attention schema theory - Wikipedia
The demystification of consciousness
10 Crazy Theories About Human Consciousness - Listverse
10 Ways to Alter Your Consciousness Without Drugs
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Good references! The past assertions of the mystery and uniqueness of consciousness is fading under the increase in research confirming the natural origins and evolution of consciousness.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Good references! The past assertions of the mystery and uniqueness of consciousness is fading under the increase in research confirming the natural origins and evolution of consciousness.
I find it weird, and sad, that we humans so easily deceive ourselves into presuming to understand something simply because we have discovered the physical mechanisms of it's construction.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I find it weird, and sad, that we humans so easily deceive ourselves into presuming to understand something simply because we have discovered the physical mechanisms of it's construction.
In the end, we don't have to "understand something" in order to recognize that it has what the "spiritualist" would likely consider "mundane" origins. I find it weird, and sad, that some would consider any part of it "mundane" just because it didn't have imaginary friends in its origin story, because it necessarily means that, to the one holding such ideas, the entire content of the universe is "mundane," and that's a sad, sad perspective to have in my opinion.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I find it weird, and sad, that we humans so easily deceive ourselves into presuming to understand something simply because we have discovered the physical mechanisms of it's construction.
Well we haven't got there yet but the prospects look better than not being so, and probably better for such if, as likely, our consciousness did just have as ordinary origins as much else in our physical being. And for me, it would be a blessing to find the true origins, since we might treat other life a lot better.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Well we haven't got there yet but the prospects look better than not being so, and probably better for such if, as likely, our consciousness did just have as ordinary origins as much else in our physical being. And for me, it would be a blessing to find the true origins, since we might treat other life a lot better.
But there is nothing ordinary about any of this. And the origin of it all is still a complete mystery. Understanding the evolutionary mechanisms by which consciousness developed does not explain the existence of consciousness or the realm of metaphysical possibilities that consciousness gives us access to.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But there is nothing ordinary about any of this. And the origin of it all is still a complete mystery. Understanding the evolutionary mechanisms by which consciousness developed does not explain the existence of consciousness or the realm of metaphysical possibilities that consciousness gives us access to.
Metaphysical possibilities = Imagination
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Metaphysical possibilities = Imagination
Applied imagination: as in how the hole in the middle of a flattened disc can transport a load. Real possibilities that could not exist without access to the metaphysical realm of consciousness.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Applied imagination: as in how the hole in the middle of a flattened disc can transport a load. Real possibilities that could not exist without access to the metaphysical realm of consciousness.
I like the term applied imagination. :) And of course, that which was only once imagined can sometimes become reality. I just don't see the need for terms like "Realm" and "Metephysical" as if we were talking about a separate place or location.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
But there is nothing ordinary about any of this. And the origin of it all is still a complete mystery. Understanding the evolutionary mechanisms by which consciousness developed does not explain the existence of consciousness or the realm of metaphysical possibilities that consciousness gives us access to.
Well it's not ordinary at the moment but might be so when we understand it better. Who knows where we will get to when we try to understand what goes on in the minds of non-human animals - which should probably inform us more.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Isn't information an abstract quality that represents the causation of physical properties in a system?

I don't see any reason why a physical mechanism would imply a functionally specific task to accommodate anything at all solely on a physical basis.

Abstract qualities do have causal properties in nature is something I consider worthwhile of investigation.

The mere fact that we have memories that store for the purposes of identifying, conceptualizing, and reasoning in the environment does give us unique survival advantages. There are purposes inherent in the system of consciousness. The purposes inherent in consciousness work together so that humans can survive and thrive in the environment.

Self awareness allows us to ponder our existence, and make corrections to our perceptions among other things. A purpose is implied in the faculty.

I see no reason to give up thinking that consciousness is made by intelligent means.
There are clearly functions with purposes, and not merely functions without any purposes.

Intelligence in nature is worthy of investigation. Science alone has no why answers in explaining consciousness. Philosophy of metaphysics must be applied.

All this article does is remove the why question from consideration. And it offers it's philosophy that information is not a special quality of existence. But the article offers no reasons for consciousness. It merely explains it away.

Philosophy is not dead after all, but is necessary to understand ourselves better.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Isn't information an abstract quality that represents the causation of physical properties in a system?

I don't see any reason why a physical mechanism would imply a functionally specific task to accommodate anything at all solely on a physical basis.

Abstract qualities do have causal properties in nature is something I consider worthwhile of investigation.

The mere fact that we have memories that store for the purposes of identifying, conceptualizing, and reasoning in the environment does give us unique survival advantages. There are purposes inherent in the system of consciousness. The purposes inherent in consciousness work together so that humans can survive and thrive in the environment.
But is this any different than what other animal species have achieved also? Given that it is probably only in the last tens of thousand of years that human consciousness has sprung into vivid life (enhanced almost certainly by our language) so as to enable our success as a species and probably giving us a power which we don't actually seem to be using that well.
Self awareness allows us to ponder our existence, and make corrections to our perceptions among other things. A purpose is implied in the faculty.

I see no reason to give up thinking that consciousness is made by intelligent means.
There are clearly functions with purposes, and not merely functions without any purposes.
Not even when it seems to have taken us so long to do so?
Intelligence in nature is worthy of investigation. Science alone has no why answers in explaining consciousness. Philosophy of metaphysics must be applied.

All this article does is remove the why question from consideration. And it offers it's philosophy that information is not a special quality of existence. But the article offers no reasons for consciousness. It merely explains it away.

Philosophy is not dead after all, but is necessary to understand ourselves better.
Well I won't be alive to see it, but I very much doubt we will not see some better answers as to what consciousness actually is, particularly if the AI advances predicted aid us in doing so. And it's just that all other explanations as to what we experience as consciousness seem to favour humans over all other species and also tends to promote beliefs not having substantial foundations that gets my goat (or monkey, or dolphin, etc.) :oops:
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
I like the term applied imagination. :) And of course, that which was only once imagined can sometimes become reality. I just don't see the need for terms like "Realm" and "Metephysical" as if we were talking about a separate place or location.
These possibilities did not exist, and could not exist, without conscious awareness, and the transcendence of imagination. So it IS a whole new realm of possibility that emerges from, and yet transcends the otherwise extant realm of possibility. And like it or not, this does call into question what other realms of possibility might exist beyond the physical, and metaphysical that we can currently experience.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
These possibilities did not exist, and could not exist, without conscious awareness, and the transcendence of imagination. So it IS a whole new realm of possibility that emerges from, and yet transcends the otherwise extant realm of possibility. And like it or not, this does call into question what other realms of possibility might exist beyond the physical, and metaphysical that we can currently experience.
What is consciousness anyway? I think it simply means awake and aware. It means that the central nervous system is able to receive input from the senses and process those inputs, whether it is as simple recognition or acknowledgement, to complex processing and evaluation.

But this is not unique to human beings. Do not all organisms with a central nervous system have consciousness? And creativity and imagination is not limited to human beings either. Do not other animals make tools and creatively solve problems?

Consciousness for life forms simply means the bio-chemical central processor is on and functioning. What that processor can do is directly tied to the complexity and arrangement of the component parts.

If I imagine something unique, it only exists in the hardware of my central nervous system. If I die before sharing it, that imagined something is lost. It did not exist in a separate realm outside of myself. Someone may imagine something similar, but unless I share it, my imagining would be lost.

A creative idea, if shared, can influence others and change or broadened choices others may make. It can alter the course of things, that without the new, creative idea, would either plod along as would be assumed, or proceeded in other ways. You seems to want to poetically place future possibility in its own reality, separate from actual reality. That's fine if it helps you think about it that way. But the infinite of possibilities do not all exist, all the time, waiting to be selected. They only exist when they are created or thought up by someone, and then shared in some way.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Consciousness is acceptance of natural.

Intelligence seeks to destroy and proves it is not conscious of acceptance as basic advice to the human self doing all the referencing.

As you seem to think an abstract wisdom of consciousness discovered will give you access to something higher than intelligence.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
What is consciousness anyway? I think it simply means awake and aware. It means that the central nervous system is able to receive input from the senses and process those inputs, whether it is as simple recognition or acknowledgement, to complex processing and evaluation.

But this is not unique to human beings. Do not all organisms with a central nervous system have consciousness? And creativity and imagination is not limited to human beings either. Do not other animals make tools and creatively solve problems?

Consciousness for life forms simply means the bio-chemical central processor is on and functioning. What that processor can do is directly tied to the complexity and arrangement of the component parts.

If I imagine something unique, it only exists in the hardware of my central nervous system. If I die before sharing it, that imagined something is lost. It did not exist in a separate realm outside of myself. Someone may imagine something similar, but unless I share it, my imagining would be lost.

A creative idea, if shared, can influence others and change or broadened choices others may make. It can alter the course of things, that without the new, creative idea, would either plod along as would be assumed, or proceeded in other ways. You seems to want to poetically place future possibility in its own reality, separate from actual reality. That's fine if it helps you think about it that way. But the infinite of possibilities do not all exist, all the time, waiting to be selected. They only exist when they are created or thought up by someone, and then shared in some way.
Think of existence as manifesting various realms of possibility. There is the physical realm, where energy is being expressed through a whole array of quantum phenomena that can and do interact in all sorts of amazing and interesting ways (let's call it the realm of physical possibilities). But then something truly extraordinary (transcendent) happens: a certain combination of physical possibilities somehow results in the occurrence of "life". Bits if physical existence become self-motivated, and self-propelled! Opening up a whole new realm of what is existentially possible, in addition to the previous physical realm of possibilities. Let's call this the realm of living possibilities.

And then another extraordinary and transcendent existential leap occurs: Those self-motivation and self-propulsion living bits of existence evolve to manifest a conscious self/other awareness. And through them, existence can now observe itself! And 'ponder' itself! Explore itself. And even seek after it's own 'meaning' through the bits of itself that have transcended the limitations of matter and energy, and of self-motivation and self-propulsion (life). It certainly makes me wonder what other transcendent realms of possibility might exist that we humans are not even aware of.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Think of existence as manifesting various realms of possibility. There is the physical realm, where energy is being expressed through a whole array of quantum phenomena that can and do interact in all sorts of amazing and interesting ways (let's call it the realm of physical possibilities). But then something truly extraordinary (transcendent) happens: a certain combination of physical possibilities somehow results in the occurrence of "life". Bits if physical existence become self-motivated, and self-propelled! Opening up a whole new realm of what is existentially possible, in addition to the previous physical realm of possibilities. Let's call this the realm of living possibilities.

And then another extraordinary and transcendent existential leap occurs: Those self-motivation and self-propulsion living bits of existence evolve to manifest a conscious self/other awareness. And through them, existence can now observe itself! And 'ponder' itself! Explore itself. And even seek after it's own 'meaning' through the bits of itself that have transcended the limitations of matter and energy, and of self-motivation and self-propulsion (life). It certainly makes me wonder what other transcendent realms of possibility might exist that we humans are not even aware of.
I get it. The whole life from inanimate to conscious life forms is way cool. And most certainly, we have not figured out all the ins and outs of the cosmos. Lots of potentially cool new things may still be in store for us to discover.

That being said, I don't see things as transcending. Various atomic elements can be arranged to form self-replicating bio-chemical organic computers (life containing a central nervous system). We can arrange these elements in other ways to make metal-silicon-plastic computers. Perhaps we will be able to make metal-silicon computers self-replicating as well.

The fact that one organic conscious species is complex enough to not only be conscious (aware, receive input and interact with environment), but to ask whether it's existence has meaning, does not necessarily mean that the question has an answer, or an answer other than 'no'.

I am equally jazzed about potential possibilities. I just don't think of them in poetic, metaphorical language. How life began is a stumper. We don't have sufficient information to know what happened. We have no way of knowing if we create a system with conditions that result in spontaneous organic life, if that system is exactly the same as the serendipitous events that started life on earth. We have nothing to compare it to. For all we know, there may have been billions of proto-life beginnings, and only the one that resulted in life as we know it actually took hold. There could have been more than one type of proto-life existing at the same time, and only one resulted in the current chain of life.

What is fairly clear is that once those initial single-celled organisms took hold, there was no other meaning or mandate other than to survive and replicate. That is the meaning of life.

And even seek after it's own 'meaning' through the bits of itself that have transcended the limitations of matter and energy, and of self-motivation and self-propulsion (life)
Not sure I get this part. What bits are transcending the limitations of matter and energy? How do you know that anything is transcending the limitations of matter and energy? Either there are limits and transcending them is not a thing, or else the limits are not a thing, in which case you are still not transcending, you are just observing additional properties of matter and energy.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I get it. The whole life from inanimate to conscious life forms is way cool. And most certainly, we have not figured out all the ins and outs of the cosmos. Lots of potentially cool new things may still be in store for us to discover.

That being said, I don't see things as transcending. Various atomic elements can be arranged to form self-replicating bio-chemical organic computers (life containing a central nervous system). We can arrange these elements in other ways to make metal-silicon-plastic computers. Perhaps we will be able to make metal-silicon computers self-replicating as well.
It isn't about the how. It's about whole new levels of possibility opening up that did not and could not exist, before. This is why it is "transcendent". The previous level of existential possibility is transcended into a whole new lever of existential possibility. I know that atheists can't deal with the word "transcendence", but that truth is the truth. Life is transcendent of inanimate matter. Conscious self-awareness is transcendent of both life and inanimate matter. And each of these expressions of transcendence create a whole new realm of existential possibility.They don't NEGATE the realm from which they spring, but they do clearly transcend (rise above/surpass) it.

It's not the mechanics that are important. here. It's the fact that existence expresses this transcendence. It has become AWARE OF ITSELF. And we are a part of that existential self-awareness. It could be said that this is why we exist. That to pursue a greater degree of existential self/other awareness is our purpose, here.
The fact that one organic conscious species is complex enough to not only be conscious (aware, receive input and interact with environment), but to ask whether it's existence has meaning, does not necessarily mean that the question has an answer, or an answer other than 'no'.
We ask because we can. And we can because it's what this progression of existential transcendence created us to do. It would seem that this much of our purpose is clear. And to a greater or lesser degree, we are trying to fulfill it.
I am equally jazzed about potential possibilities. I just don't think of them in poetic, metaphorical language. How life began is a stumper. We don't have sufficient information to know what happened.
We know WHAT happened. We just don't know how, exactly, or when or where. But knowing how, exactly, or when or where isn't going to change anything for us, philosophically. We still are what we are, and so we will remain.
What is fairly clear is that once those initial single-celled organisms took hold, there was no other meaning or mandate other than to survive and replicate. That is the meaning of life.
We don't 'know that' at all. We don't know that we exist only to keep existing. In fact, if that were the case, life and consciousness are both irrelevant. Existential transcendence is irrelevant. But it's not irrelevant. It's fundamental to the nature of existence. And we have our part in that, to play.
What bits are transcending the limitations of matter and energy?
The bits that became more than just a combination of matter and energy. The bits that gave the universe to a whole new range of possibilities that the universe did not and could not otherwise have have.
How do you know that anything is transcending the limitations of matter and energy?
Because matter and energy do not think. They are not alive. They are just physical forces governed by chance possibility and some unknown predetermined limitations.
 
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MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It isn't about the how. It's about whole new levels of possibility opening up that did not and could not exist, before. This is why it is "transcendent". The previous level of existential possibility is transcended into a whole new lever of existential possibility. I know that atheists can't deal with the word "transcendence", but that truth is the truth. Life is transcendent of inanimate matter. Conscious self-awareness is transcendent of both life and inanimate matter. And each of these expressions of transcendence create a whole new realm of existential possibility.They don't NEGATE the realm from which they spring, but they do clearly transcend (rise above/surpass) it.
It all depends on how transcendent is used. I don't have too much issue with the paragraph above, especially if transcend equates to different with the subjective value judgement of better implied.

It's not the mechanics that are important. here. It's the fact that existence expresses this transcendence. It has become AWARE OF ITSELF. And we are a part of that existential self-awareness. It could be said that this is why we exist. That to pursue a greater degree of existential self/other awareness is our purpose, here.
We ask because we can. And we can because it's what this progression of existential transcendence created us to do. It would seem that this much of our purpose is clear. And to a greater or lesser degree, we are trying to fulfill it.
We know WHAT happened. We just don't know how, exactly, or when or where. But knowing how, exactly, or when or where isn't going to change anything for us, philosophically. We still are what we are, and so we will remain.
You put great emphasis on awareness, but our level of awareness came extremely late in the history of life. In fact, I would say that for the majority of this period of life, there was no level of awareness that we might consider significant. Our awareness is not a pre-determined end or goal, just good luck.

We don't 'know that' at all. We don't know that we exist only to keep existing. In fact, if that were the case, life and consciousness are both irrelevant. Existential transcendence is irrelevant. But it's not irrelevant. It's fundamental to the nature of existence. And we have our part in that, to play.
The bits that became more than just a combination of matter and energy. The bits that gave the universe to a whole new range of possibilities that the universe did not and could not otherwise have have.
Because matter and energy do not think. They are not alive. They are just physical forces governed by chance possibility and some unknown predetermined limitations.
OK, we don't know that the only purpose of life is to survive and reproduce, but we can't say it is anything else. I think we can say, based on what we have observed to date, that the only apparent drive and purpose of life is to survive and reproduce.

Yes, Matter/Energy is not alive. However, Matter/Energy can be combined to create living things. It is conceivable that we may be able to create no-organic living things in the future. On some level, current robotic technology quite easily mimics the functional level of lower life form with the only component missing being self-replication. It is not outside the realm of possibility that AI technology rises to the level of human cognition, with no other purpose or cause beyond our will to create it.
As to life and consciousness being irrelevant, there is nothing in the history of our experience to say that it is anything but that. To attach any other purpose or meaning is simply subjective desire. Despite irrelevancy, it does not mean that we cannot appreciate and value it.
 
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