Someone had to be First

[Thief]

Hardly. There is nothing beyond very questionable doctrine to even state that there was such a thing as a non-arbitrary "first" person.

To tell a person from other, "non-people" primates, one has first to establish the parameters to do so.

Even then, there is no true certainty that people did not differentiate several times independently - even at the exact same time. Depending on how one defines a "person", it may be even nearly certain that it happened that way.

someone had to be first.....
it's a linear thing
did you post an answer to the poll?

 

[DavidFirth]

I have to go with "none of the above" Thief, no option for the infidel? I guess my "Adam" would perhaps be the first recognisable Homo sapiens, though I don't think a "Homo sapien" popped out of the womb of one of our ancestors one day, it was a gradual evolution. Like most things in life the lines are blurred.

Well, at one point a Homo sapien would have had to pop out according to the theory.

 

[Polymath257]

someone had to be first.....
it's a linear thing
did you post an answer to the poll?

It is NOT a linear thing. It is a matter of populations. It is also a matter of vague definitions.

So, was there a first person to speak English? No. A population existed whose language gradually changed. But 'English' has fuzzy boundaries and so not one single person was the first to speak it. There was not enough change from one generation to the next to qualify as a new language, yet a new language developed.

In the same way, humans developed from a population of great apes. The change from one generation to the next wasn't enough to make a different species, yet a new species developed. No one person was a 'first'.

 

[LuisDantas]

someone had to be first.....

Given certain constraints, which are not very likely to apply.

it's a linear thing

That being one of the constraints.

did you post an answer to the poll?

No.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Well, at one point a Homo sapien would have had to pop out according to the theory.

I've used this "language" allegory before about speciation, but I think it is useful in putting across the idea. Spanish evolved from the Latin language, but that does not mean a Spanish speaking baby popped out of a Latin speaking woman's womb one day. People migrated, the language slowly begun to change little by little, to "mutate" until eventually someone speaking Latin would no longer understand someone speaking Spanish. The comparison is not perfect, but goes some way to illustrating how speciation works I hope.

 

[DavidFirth]

I've used this "language" allegory before about speciation, but I think it is useful in putting across the idea. Spanish evolved from the Latin language, but that does not mean a Spanish speaking baby popped out of a Latin speaking woman's womb one day. People migrated, the language slowly begun to change little by little, to "mutate" until eventually someone speaking Latin would no longer understand someone speaking Spanish. The comparison is not perfect, but goes some way to illustrating how speciation works I hope.

Well, at one point a Homo sapien would have had to pop out according to the theory.

 

[Willamena]

What is this requirement for a "first?"

 

[DavidFirth]

What is this requirement for a "first?"

It's kind of required before you can have a second or a third or a thirty millionth.

 

[Willamena]

It's kind of required before you can have a second or a third or a thirty millionth.

Right. It's entirely arbitrary.

 

[Polymath257]

Well, at one point a Homo sapien would have had to pop out according to the theory.

No more than a spanish speaking baby has to pop out of a Latin speaking mother.

The boundaries are blurry.

 

[Thief]

Given certain constraints, which are not very likely to apply.



That being one of the constraints.


No.

No more than a spanish speaking baby has to pop out of a Latin speaking mother.

The boundaries are blurry.

I would insist.....the restraint or boundary is simple
at some point in the movement.....no form of Man on this earth
THEN......Man appears and the movement begins

are the two of you denying a distinct individual?
someone more than animal?

or are we still that creature ....still evolving
and each of us doomed to the grave?

but even so.....somewhere on this planet
somewhere to his own
Someone said.......I AM
more so than the rest of the animals

the distinct individual happened
it happens now .....for each of us

reverse the accumulating numbers.....and there stands.....One

 

[Polymath257]

I would insist.....the restraint or boundary is simple
at some point in the movement.....no form of Man on this earth
THEN......Man appears and the movement begins

are the two of you denying a distinct individual?
someone more than animal?

or are we still that creature ....still evolving
and each of us doomed to the grave?

but even so.....somewhere on this planet
somewhere to his own
Someone said.......I AM
more so than the rest of the animals

the distinct individual happened
it happens now .....for each of us

reverse the accumulating numbers.....and there stands.....One

Those from the species Homo erectus would be hard to distinguish from Homo sapiens if dressed and walking on the street. yet they were a different species.

The boundaries are quite broad. In fact, broader than the variation in any population. It takes several generations to pass from 'clearly not human' to 'clearly human'.

There was no 'first'.

 

[Thief]

Those from the species Homo erectus would be hard to distinguish from Homo sapiens if dressed and walking on the street. yet they were a different species.

The boundaries are quite broad. In fact, broader than the variation in any population. It takes several generations to pass from 'clearly not human' to 'clearly human'.

There was no 'first'.

you prefer?...simultaneous
more than one at one time

ok.......but someone had to be first to walk with God

and though we may never no which one did it
someone had to be first to say.....I AM.....

someone had to be first to realize......the rest of the animals....
are not like ME!

 

[Polymath257]

you prefer?...simultaneous
more than one at one time

ok.......but someone had to be first to walk with God

and though we may never no which one did it
someone had to be first to say.....I AM.....

someone had to be first to realize......the rest of the animals....
are not like ME!

There is no God to walk with. There may have been a first to believe in a God, but I'm not sure even that is true.

 

[Thief]

There is no God to walk with. There may have been a first to believe in a God, but I'm not sure even that is true.

so.....

let's white wash the fence.....
the grass
the trees
the rocks
and everything else we can

stand back and say.......can't see the fence any more
no boundary

 

[Polymath257]

so.....

let's white wash the fence.....
the grass
the trees
the rocks
and everything else we can

stand back and say.......can't see the fence any more
no boundary

I didn't say *no* boundary. I said the boundary is wide and ill defined. Just like with language, species are not marked off with clear lines.

 

[Thief]

I didn't say *no* boundary. I said the boundary is wide and ill defined. Just like with language, species are not marked off with clear lines.

we have genetics...if nothing else

but for this thread.....Man is a distinct creature
unlike any other

and at some point.....that distinction had a beginning

someone was first

 

[Polymath257]

we have genetics...if nothing else

but for this thread.....Man is a distinct creature
unlike any other

and at some point.....that distinction had a beginning

someone was first

And Spanish is a distinct language. But there was no first Spanish speaker.

The distinction, while clear now, was less clear in the past.

 

[Thief]

And Spanish is a distinct language. But there was no first Spanish speaker.

The distinction, while clear now, was less clear in the past.

no doubt....the first man to really look at the situation had the same problem

he looks at everyone around him
looks at himself
looks at everyone around him....

and then realizes......wtf

 

[Polymath257]

no doubt....the first man to really look at the situation had the same problem

he looks at everyone around him
looks at himself
looks at everyone around him....

and then realizes......wtf

Why would you expect there to be a first? I'm sure he looked around and saw a lot of people very similar to himself.