=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[free spirit]

Paul was a Roman agent, sent to destroy the Way of Jesus.

Character assassination with lies are the same as the real thing, so I would advise you to repent of this grave sin.

 

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

Ben: Tell me Free Spirit, are you trying to teach Judaism to the Jew? That's all we need now! We are talking about a Jewish man called Yeshua, and not a Greek man called Jesus. Can you see the difference between the two? Besides, Yeshua himself tells you in Mark 12:29 that God is One and the only Lord. Why do you have to contradict him by saying that he was Lord?

Yes Ben two thousand years ago there was a split in the Jewish nation; those that believed in a man called Jesus and those who did not. The Greek name of Yeshua came because in these days the Greek was the "lingua franca" in the Roman empire.

Ben: Hold on fella, there was no such a thing as a split in the Jewish Nation 2000 years ago. Christianity was never Jewish in the first place. Paul did try to join the Nazarenes, who were the ones that constituted a Sect of Judaism, but he didn't succeed.

Ben: Are you behaving like Paul who had no qualms to contradic Yeshua with regards to the Law that Yeshua declared not to have come to abolish and Paul said that's not true but that the Law was abolished in the cross? (Mat. 5:17; Ephe. 2:15) Be careful! To contradict is to stand against; and against is a synonym with "anti." If you believe that Yeshua was Christ, I'll let you fill in the blanks.

To make it simple for you Ben, Paul did not say the law was abolished; but he explained that if you have the gift of the Holy Spirit than you have the character of Christ in you, and if you live in that character you do not need the law to guide you. Because in that character you fulfill the law. But there are not many believers that are prepared to give up their character to gain that of Christ, it takes real faith to do that.


Ben: You have not read the quotation I gave you as an evidence that Paul declared that the Law was abolished on the cross. Read Ephesians 2:15. "The Law in the form of commandments was abolished on the cross." This is a contradiction to Jesus' declaration that nothing was abolished even down to the letter of the Law. (Mat. 5:17-19)

 

[free spirit]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

Ben: Tell me Free Spirit, are you trying to teach Judaism to the Jew? That's all we need now! We are talking about a Jewish man called Yeshua, and not a Greek man called Jesus. Can you see the difference between the two? Besides, Yeshua himself tells you in Mark 12:29 that God is One and the only Lord. Why do you have to contradict him by saying that he was Lord?

Yes Ben two thousand years ago there was a split in the Jewish nation; those that believed in a man called Jesus and those who did not. The Greek name of Yeshua came because in these days the Greek was the "lingua franca" in the Roman empire.

Ben: Hold on fella, there was no such a thing as a split in the Jewish Nation 2000 years ago. Christianity was never Jewish in the first place. Paul did try to join the Nazarenes, who were the ones that constituted a Sect of Judaism, but he didn't succeed.
FS. You and I were not there, so we have to believe those who wrote that many Jews believed and became obedient to the way.

Ben: Are you behaving like Paul who had no qualms to contradic Yeshua with regards to the Law that Yeshua declared not to have come to abolish and Paul said that's not true but that the Law was abolished in the cross? (Mat. 5:17; Ephe. 2:15) Be careful! To contradict is to stand against; and against is a synonym with "anti." If you believe that Yeshua was Christ, I'll let you fill in the blanks.

To make it simple for you Ben, Paul did not say the law was abolished; but he explained that if you have the gift of the Holy Spirit than you have the character of Christ in you, and if you live in that character you do not need the law to guide you. Because in that character you fulfill the law. But there are not many believers that are prepared to give up their character to gain that of Christ, it takes real faith to do that.


Ben: You have not read the quotation I gave you as an evidence that Paul declared that the Law was abolished on the cross. Read Ephesians 2:15. "The Law in the form of commandments was abolished on the cross." This is a contradiction to Jesus' declaration that nothing was abolished even down to the letter of the Law. (Mat. 5:17-19)

FS. Sorry Ben you do not have understanding, because by one man ADAM the world was condemned to die, so it took one man to obey or fulfill the law to Justify the world.
We read in Ephesians 2:11 to 18; therefore remember, that formerly you the gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision, which is performed in the flesh by human hands, remember that you were at that time separated from Christ excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenant of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. but now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. for he himself is our peace who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in his flesh the enmity which is the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in himself he might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity; and he came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father."
So you see Ben the law is not abolished, but it is fulfilled if you are in his spirit: in other words if you are in his spirit you are no longer under the law: or if you are in his spirit you have supplanted the law.
or you have to have his spirit to be able to fulfill the law.
Do not be deceived Ben for only in him you will be safe from the accusations of the law.
To make it simple Ben, the Jews had the law and the promises: by fulfilling the law Jesus has made possible for all those who receive him to fulfill the law also, regardless if they are Jews or gentiles.
So Ben I know you consider yourself more Godly then I but that is unkind and untrue, we are all equal in Christ; So brother give me a hug.

 

[Ben Masada]

FS. Sorry Ben you do not have understanding, because by one man ADAM the world was condemned to die, so it took one man to obey or fulfill the law to Justify the world.
We read in Ephesians 2:11 to 18; therefore remember, that formerly you the gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision, which is performed in the flesh by human hands, remember that you were at that time separated from Christ excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenant of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. but now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. for he himself is our peace who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in his flesh the enmity which is the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in himself he might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity; and he came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father."
So you see Ben the law is not abolished, but it is fulfilled if you are in his spirit: in other words if you are in his spirit you are no longer under the law: or if you are in his spirit you have supplanted the law.
or you have to have his spirit to be able to fulfill the law.
Do not be deceived Ben for only in him you will be safe from the accusations of the law.
To make it simple Ben, the Jews had the law and the promises: by fulfilling the law Jesus has made possible for all those who receive him to fulfill the law also, regardless if they are Jews or gentiles.
So Ben I know you consider yourself more Godly then I but that is unkind and untrue, we are all equal in Christ; So brother give me a hug.

Perhaps I lack understanding of Pauline rhetorics. You lack understanding of reality. You know and perhaps you see everyday that we all eventually die. Death is not related to the sin of one man, Adam, but to the fact that we have been born. Everyone who is born is condemned to die; and not because of sin but because he has been born.

Paul said that the Law was abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15) And when Jesus said that he had come to fulfill it, he connected his fulfilling of the Law with two factors: First, with the permanence of Heavens and Earth. And second, with the need for all of us to do exactly the same. Read Matthew 5:18,19. As you see, Paul was wrong.

The Law does not accuse; the Law whows if what you are doing can lead you to death. The Law is like a map showing you the way to enjoy your life without trouble. To understand better what I am talking about, read Psalm 119.

 

[Vile Atheist]

I lolled.

 

[free spirit]

Perhaps I lack understanding of Pauline rhetorics. You lack understanding of reality.

There are two reality; reality in the flesh and reality in the spirit. We are discussing reality in the spirit here.

You know and perhaps you see everyday that we all eventually die. Death is not related to the sin of one man, Adam, but to the fact that we have been born. Everyone who is born is condemned to die; and not because of sin but because he has been born.

Genesis 3: 16 - 17; "and the lord god commanded the man, saying, from any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die."
Romans 5: 18 - 19, 'so then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. for as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one the many will be made righteous.

Paul said that the Law was abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15) And when Jesus said that he had come to fulfill it, he connected his fulfilling of the Law with two factors: First, with the permanence of Heavens and Earth. And second, with the need for all of us to do exactly the same. Read Matthew 5:18,19. As you see, Paul was wrong.

Romans 7 we read
Or do you not know, brethren (For I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were FORBIDDEN by the law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in THE LIFE of the Spirit and not in OBEDIENCE of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the law; for I would not have known about coveting if the law had not said. You shall not covet.
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead.
9 And I was once alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me,
11 for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effective my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

The Law does not accuse; the Law whows if what you are doing can lead you to death. The Law is like a map showing you the way to enjoy your life without trouble. To understand better what I am talking about, read Psalm 119.

No one can go a lifetime and not break the law, once you have broken it you are guilty. Jesus is the only one that fulfilled the law. Read Galatians for detailed informations.

 

[Ben Masada]

No one can go a lifetime and not break the law, once you have broken it you are guilty. Jesus is the only one that fulfilled the law. Read Galatians for detailed informations.

Who does not break the Law? The problem with the Law is not the fact of breaking it but rejecting it. To break the Law is human; to reject it is insurrection. Jesus broke the Golden Rule. According to the gospels, he would treat his coreligionaries, the Pharisees as hypocrites. No one likes to be treated as a hypocrite. So, "Do not do unto others what you would not like they did unto you." Jesus caused financial damages to the people trying to make a living in immediacies of the Temple. Would you like to see someone messing around with your business? I doubt it. So, Jesus broke the Law.

 

[free spirit]

Who does not break the Law? The problem with the Law is not the fact of breaking it but rejecting it. To break the Law is human; to reject it is insurrection. Jesus broke the Golden Rule. According to the gospels, he would treat his coreligionaries, the Pharisees as hypocrites. No one likes to be treated as a hypocrite. So, "Do not do unto others what you would not like they did unto you." Jesus caused financial damages to the people trying to make a living in immediacies of the Temple. Would you like to see someone messing around with your business? I doubt it. So, Jesus broke the Law.

Luke 19: 45 - 46; "and he entered the temple and began to cast out those who were selling, saying to them, it is written, and my house shall be a house of prayer, but you have made it a robbers' den."

Mark 11: 15 to 18; " and they came to Jerusalem. and he entered the temple and began to cast out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who were selling doves; and he would not permit anyone to carry goods through the temple. and he began to teach and say to them, is it not written, my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations? but you have made it a robbers' den. and the chief priest and the scribes heard this, and began seeking how to destroy him; for they were afraid of him, for all the multitude was astonished at his teaching."

So Ben you like to tell only half of the story, I am disappointed.
Jesus is Lord and God, therefore he is the law; you should be proud of him.

 

[Ben Masada]

Luke 19: 45 - 46; "and he entered the temple and began to cast out those who were selling, saying to them, it is written, and my house shall be a house of prayer, but you have made it a robbers' den."

Mark 11: 15 to 18; " and they came to Jerusalem. and he entered the temple and began to cast out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who were selling doves; and he would not permit anyone to carry goods through the temple. and he began to teach and say to them, is it not written, my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations? but you have made it a robbers' den. and the chief priest and the scribes heard this, and began seeking how to destroy him; for they were afraid of him, for all the multitude was astonished at his teaching."

So Ben you like to tell only half of the story, I am disappointed.
Jesus is Lord and God, therefore he is the law; you should be proud of him.

Not so fast my friend! I am the inside one of the two of us. You are an outsider just as were the gospel writers, who had a very poor knowledge of what being Jewish is. It is even very probable that they were never in Israel, considering that all the books of the NT, especially the gospels were written from outside Israel.

The Jewish leaders in their attachment to the letter of the Law, would never permit business inside the Temple. Do you happen to know why there were money changers? Because the foreign currency could not hit the bottom of the coffers of the Temple. Because an animal for sacrifice could not be bought with foreign currency. It had to be changed into the Temple shekel first in order to be cosher for sacrifice.

"Carrying goods through the Temple!" That's ignorance of Jewishness. I am almost sure the gospel writers never saw the inside of the Temple, or how meticulous it was kept by the Temple servants from the presence of unwanted elements. Am I not justified to defend Judaism from these attacks of Christianity? If Christianity had started and behaved just like any other religion which respects Judaism, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[free spirit]

Not so fast my friend! I am the inside one of the two of us. You are an outsider just as were the gospel writers, who had a very poor knowledge of what being Jewish is. It is even very probable that they were never in Israel, considering that all the books of the NT, especially the gospels were written from outside Israel.

Israel is a spiritual term, it was never meant to be an earthly state. Spiritually I am Israel, the bride of Christ.

The Jewish leaders in their attachment to the letter of the Law, would never permit business inside the Temple.

Greed can make people do things not proper.

Do you happen to know why there were money changers? Because the foreign currency could not hit the bottom of the coffers of the Temple. Because an animal for sacrifice could not be bought with foreign currency. It had to be changed into the Temple shekel first in order to be cosher for sacrifice.

Yes I know.

"Carrying goods through the Temple!" That's ignorance of Jewishness. I am almost sure the gospel writers never saw the inside of the Temple, or how meticulous it was kept by the Temple servants from the presence of unwanted elements.

I do not know but it could have been the temple courtyard.

Am I not justified to defend Judaism from these attacks of Christianity? If Christianity had started and behaved just like any other religion which respects Judaism, we would not be having this discussion.

You are good in defending Judaism, but your labors are useless for God is no longer interested in that religion. Look two thousand years have past from Jesus, which you do not recognize as a prophet, so how long has been since your religion has been visited by a prophet from God, and which one of them your religion did not persecute or kill.

 

[Ben Masada]

Israel is a spiritual term, it was never meant to be an earthly state. Spiritually I am Israel, the bride of Christ.

Nice try pal. Try again or convert if you real mean what you say.

Greed can make people do things not proper.

Greed is good, but tradition is stronger. Jewish tradition is stronger than greed.

I do not know but it could have been the temple courtyard.

The Temple courtyard was large enough. But it's better than "through the Temple." I am half glad you have improved that much.

You are good in defending Judaism, but your labors are useless for God is no longer interested in that religion.

What makes you think so, your feelings? You can't imagine how mistaken you are.

Look two thousand years have past from Jesus, which you do not recognize as a prophet, so how long has been since your religion has been visited by a prophet from God, and which one of them your religion did not persecute or kill.

We don't need anymore Prophets. Since the day the Jews returned from Babylon and Ezra organized our Scriptures, the New Covenant has been established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. Now, we no longer need Prophets or anyone to teach us how to know the Lord. We have the Scriptures to know all we need about the Lord. (Jer. 31:34)

For these Scriptures which have been enjoined on us today are not too mysterious and remote for us. They are not up in the sky, that we should say, "Who will go up in the sky to get them for us and tell us of them, that we may carry them out? Nor are they across the sea, that we should say, "Who will cross the sea to get them for us and tell us of them, that we may carry them out? No, they are something very near to us , already in our own mouths and in our own hearts; we have only to carry them out. (Deut. 30:11-14)

 

[free spirit]

Israel is a spiritual term, it was never meant to be an earthly state. Spiritually I am Israel, the bride of Christ.

Nice try pal. Try again or convert if you real mean what you say.

We read in Romans chapter 9: "even us, whom he also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
As he says also in Hosea, I will call those who were not my people, my people. And her who was not beloved, beloved.
And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, you are not my people. There they shall be called sons of the living God.
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved,
For the Lord will execute his word upon the earth thoroughly and quickly.
And just as Isaiah foretold, except the Lord of Sabbath had left to us a posterity, we would have become as Sodom, and Gomorrah.
What shall we say then? Those Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith,
but Israel, pursuing THE law of righteousness, did not arrive at that RIGHTEOUSNESS
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone OF FAITH.
Just as it is written, behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence, and he who believes in him will not be disappointed."

Greed can make people do things not proper.

Greed is good, but tradition is stronger. Jewish tradition is stronger than greed.

Greed is idolatry, some individuals are slaves of greed

I do not know but it could have been the temple courtyard.

The Temple courtyard was large enough. But it's better than "through the Temple." I am half glad you have improved that much.

Some people are slaves of the letter of the word, I am slave of the spirit of God.

You are good in defending Judaism, but your labors are useless for God is no longer interested in that religion.

What makes you think so, your feelings? You can't imagine how mistaken you are.
[/QUOTE
We read in Hebrews 8:
"7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he says. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant, which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying know the Lord, for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more,
13 When he said, a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

Look two thousand years have past from Jesus, which you do not recognize as a prophet, so how long has been since your religion has been visited by a prophet from God, and which one of them your religion did not persecute or kill.

We don't need anymore Prophets. Since the day the Jews returned from Babylon and Ezra organized our Scriptures, the New Covenant has been established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. Now, we no longer need Prophets or anyone to teach us how to know the Lord. We have the Scriptures to know all we need about the Lord. (Jer. 31:34)

You have just killed God again.

For these Scriptures which have been enjoined on us today are not too mysterious and remote for us. They are not up in the sky, that we should say, "Who will go up in the sky to get them for us and tell us of them, that we may carry them out? Nor are they across the sea, that we should say, "Who will cross the sea to get them for us and tell us of them, that we may carry them out? No, they are something very near to us , already in our own mouths and in our own hearts; we have only to carry them out. (Deut. 30:11-14)

But you lack Divine guidance therefore you are lost in the wilderness, in the company of wild beasts.

 

[saltandlight]

I think you shouldn't be so harsh to Ben. We should instead use gentle instruction and guidance to show him the truth.
Question for Ben: If Jesus isn't the Messiah, then who will proclaim all the things he did? I don't think anyone would have the guts to do what Jesus did. He fulfilled all the prophecies and obeyed God until the end and He has risen victorious over death and Satan. Why do you reject someone who brings hope and salvation? Jesus did the things He did to show God's people/Israel that change was needed and that he wanted to save all of the people on the Earth. He tried to show Israel that you couldn't keep God all for yourself. You were meant to be the light of the world, the glorious nation who exalts His Name, the people who declare His prescence and Glory. You were meant to be the light of the nations, nations were to be drawn to you, to see why Israel was the why it is, and thus showing God to them. But that was not to be. And now Christians are the new light, Jesus is the new light, and as a Pharisee in the Sanhedrin, named Gamaliel said: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do with these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four thousand men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
So as you can see as the Sanhedrin let Peter (he was part of the apostles that were brought in to see the Sanhedrin) go, he continued to preach and went on to start the church in Rome, and Christians have continued to spread rapidly across the world.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If Jesus isn't the Messiah, then who will proclaim all the things he did?

From my point of view, he wasn't nearly as wonderful as you think he was. I would prefer that nobody proclaim the things he allegedly did.

I don't think anyone would have the guts to do what Jesus did.

If non-Jewish woman came to ask me for help, I wouldn't have the guts to compare her and everyone she knows to dogs

He fulfilled all the prophecies

Not even one.

and obeyed God until the end

I disagree with that as well.

and He has risen victorious over death and Satan.

nonsense.

Why do you reject someone who brings hope and salvation?

Part of what rejection means is that we don't believe he brought hope and salvation. I figure you would have put that one together all by yourself.

Jesus did the things He did to show God's people/Israel that change was needed and that he wanted to save all of the people on the Earth.

The only change that was needed was for Jews to return to the days where they were observing the Torah with sincerity. And if you look in the words of the prophets, all of the people on the Earth are well provided for and taken care of.

He tried to show Israel that you couldn't keep God all for yourself.

Israel never claimed exclusive possession of God.

You were meant to be the light of the world, the glorious nation who exalts His Name, the people who declare His prescence and Glory. You were meant to be the light of the nations, nations were to be drawn to you, to see why Israel was the why it is, and thus showing God to them. But that was not to be.

??? Are you saying that God and His prophets are liars?

And now Christians are the new light, Jesus is the new light,

If anything, especially from a Jewish point of view, Christians and Jesus are an example of what NOT to do or be like. To me, Christianity represents giving up... abandoning the concept of personal responsibility for one's actions.. and completely ignoring God's will because you figure you know what God wants better than God does, and can get away with doing nothing because you believe someone else came to do it for you.

This may seem wonderful to you. It seems horrible from a Jew's point of view.

and as a Pharisee in the Sanhedrin, named Gamaliel said: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do with these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four thousand men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

I'm willing to bet he never actually said that.

 

[Bware]

There are parts of the gospels, such as this part, where I can say with certainty that it's not what Jesus actually did or said.

This was probably the construct of the author. It contradicts the rest of the entire New Testament, and the rest of the gospel and other three.

With certainty? Did you write it? Pretty sure that the books were written from first hand accounts, do you doubt the validity of the Bible? Gasp!

 

[saltandlight]

??? Are you saying that God and His prophets are liars?




No, I am not. I do not wish to offend you or God or the prophets in any way.
So now I return a question to you:
Who do you believe would be the Messiah that God would send to Israel to bring salvation?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Who do you believe would be the Messiah that God would send to Israel to bring salvation?

Are you asking for a name? Or a general set of circumstances?

Take a look at Isaiah 11 and Ezekiel 37, and get back to me.

 

[saltandlight]

Isn't the genealogy of Jesus reaffirming Isaiah 11?
I think Ezekiel 37 talks of the second coming of Christ. But if I look at it from a Jewish perspective, it looks like a mighty holy king will return to restore Israel to glory and for Israel to be one again. This I think has already occured with modern day Israel. Because the western nations granted the Jews the land of Palestine after the horrible deeds of Hitler and WWII.
But I might not be right.
Please comment Poisonshady313

 

[Ben Masada]

We read in Romans chapter 9: "even us, whom he also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
As he says also in Hosea, I will call those who were not my people, my people. And her who was not beloved, beloved.
And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, you are not my people. There they shall be called sons of the living God.
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved,
For the Lord will execute his word upon the earth thoroughly and quickly.
And just as Isaiah foretold, except the Lord of Sabbath had left to us a posterity, we would have become as Sodom, and Gomorrah.
What shall we say then? Those Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith,
but Israel, pursuing THE law of righteousness, did not arrive at that RIGHTEOUSNESS
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone OF FAITH.
Just as it is written, behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence, and he who believes in him will not be disappointed."

You are quoting the author of Replacement Theology; what did you expect?


Greed is idolatry, some individuals are slaves of greed

It is better to be slaves of greed than to be born already a slave for lack of greed. Slaves are not greedy. That's why they are slaves in the first place. In our greed, we can help ourselves and the rest of the world. Think where you would be and how if it were not for us, the greedy ones.

Some people are slaves of the letter of the word, I am slave of the spirit of God.

So, you have nothing to do with Jesus, for he was a slave of the letter of the Law. Read Matthew 5:18,19.

You are good in defending Judaism, but your labors are useless for God is no longer interested in that religion.

What makes you think so, your feelings? You can't imagine how mistaken you are. God still manifests His holiness among the nations through the Jews. (Ezek. 20:41)

We read in Hebrews 8:
"7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he says. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant, which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying know the Lord, for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more,
13 When he said, a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

You continue reading from the author of Replacement Theology. As you do it, your hatred for the Jews only increases.


You have just killed God again.

Your god 's name must be Baalzebub, who can be killed like a fly with the slept of a hand. In Hebrew the name Baalzebub means god of the flies. Now, that your god has been killed again, why don't you accept the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? That's your chance.


But you lack Divine guidance therefore you are lost in the wilderness, in the company of wild beasts.

Myself, no more. I have returned to the Land of the Living. I am no longer in the company of the Gentiles. Read Isaiah 53:8,9 and Ezekiel 37:12.

 

[Ben Masada]

I think you shouldn't be so harsh to Ben. We should instead use gentle instruction and guidance to show him the truth.

How can you show me the Truth if you don't have it? Jesus said that the Truth is the Word of God. (John 17:17) and the Psalmist says that the Word of God was granted to Israel only and to no other people on earht. (Psalm 147:19,20) So, the oposite is true; I mean, if you want the Truth, the address must be Zion the Jewish People. (Isa. 2:2,3)

Question for Ben: If Jesus isn't the Messiah, then who will proclaim all the things he did? I don't think anyone would have the guts to do what Jesus did.

The things Jesus did and taught, he left with the Sect of the Nazarenes. Then, 30 years later Paul adulterated everything and founded Christianity. (Acts 11:26)

He fulfilled all the prophecies and obeyed God until the end and He has risen victorious over death and Satan.

Show me one single eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection and I will be satisfied.

Why do you reject someone who brings hope and salvation? Jesus did the things He did to show God's people/Israel that change was needed and that he wanted to save all of the people on the Earth.

I accept Jesus for what he really was. You are the one who reject the Jesus of Nazareth for the Christ of Paul. There are two kinds of salvation. One is personal salvation that comes through obedience of the Law; and the other one is collective salvation that comes from the existence of Israel as a People before the Lord. (Jer. 31:35,36) This last kind is the salvation Jesus told the Samaritan woman that was of the Jews. (John 4:22)

He tried to show Israel that you couldn't keep God all for yourself. You were meant to be the light of the world, the glorious nation who exalts His Name, the people who declare His prescence and Glory. You were meant to be the light of the nations, nations were to be drawn to you, to see why Israel was the why it is, and thus showing God to them.

That's exactly what we are doing. If it were not for us you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone, and the fire, or even a block of wood in the shape of a demon. You would not even have a Bible to read.

But that was not to be. And now Christians are the new light, Jesus is the new light,

This is Replacement Theology.

and as a Pharisee in the Sanhedrin, named Gamaliel said: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do with these men. Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

Tell me, do you think that Islam is of human origin? Of course you do! Well, it has not failed. And it has even beaten Christianity in the pace of growth. If what you claim Gamaliel said is true, Islam must be of God. You see? It doesn't mean anything.

So as you can see as the Sanhedrin let Peter (he was part of the apostles that were brought in to see the Sanhedrin) go, he continued to preach and went on to start the church in Rome, and Christians have continued to spread rapidly across the world.

What Peter started in Rome was a branch of the Cause of the Nazarenes, the true followers of Jesus, which was absorbed, part into Judaism proper and part into the church of Paul.