Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
There are MANY rationalizations I have made to come to the conclusion that a *great* majority of the NT was not consistent with the Tanakh. I will just point out one of the most obvious which would be the allegory of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son. Using a bit of my thinking ability (not even much need be applied), one can catch the meaning of this allegory to see the warning of the deception in the NT. By sending a ram to Abraham who was going to obediently sacrifice his son, clearly we are being told that G.d would not require the sacrifice, but rather what He was requiring was obedience. And sure enough, this is written clearly throughout the Tanakh.
Ok back to this. Obediance yes, but Abraham was tested to show his obediance....Now stay with me. How do you get obediance? What is obediance? Obediance is to obey right? Obey is to hear, harken, listen, understand etc etc. Did Abraham obey without faith? Did Abraham just hear God and not have faith? When he said "the Lord will provide" after Isaac asked where is the sacrifice was his response just a routine response where he was trying to hide from his son that he was about to kill him or was it that he truly had faith that His God who had promised him already that THIS CHILD not his other, ishmael, was the child of the promises that was given and that he truly believed, had faith, had no doubt that "his Lord will provide" a sacrifice instead of having to kill his son, which was the one of the promises.
Obedience and faith go hand and hand. Just as Jesus said "why do you call me Lord, (this is showing some kind of faith right) but do not do what i say? Do you see it? Hes say "why even have faith in Me if you do not show obedience to what i say?
Its funny how you want to throw out faith and anyone (including those who showed it in the OT) who shows this "doesnt know the real Truth". I could show you many of examples of faith in the OT and how through faith and obedience those who truly worshipped God were "blessed" by God.
As far as Hellenistic religions go, are you aware of what exactly it is? Because I would think if you were, then you would not be surprised by my declaration (one I can confidently make after having educated myself to the different religions and cultures of the ancient world). Are you really not aware that the story of Jesus (that being the inclusion of the death, burial, and resurrection) was not a new religious concept? If you are aware and still declaring that this man, Jesus did in fact carry out this well known mythological version of Hellenistic teachings, then you are denying the declarations made by G.d in Isaiah that when He creates, not only is it *as* He declares it, but also that it is distinctively and undeniably Him creating it.Thus, reason for our being able to trust Him... because He has laid out His Laws (including the Natural Laws), and this is what He will be working within.
Ha, i am well aware that "the Jesus story" seems hellenistic, for that fact it is in almost every pagan religion of old. But so is the Moses, Abraham and other "stories" in other pagan religions. Thats part of the whole deception. God told Adam He will provide a Saviour for mankind and just like any story passed by word of mouth through years and years and generations and generations it was bound to get twisted and distorted. This was part of God Plan. He even allowed His own "chosen" people to distort His Word and put lies in it.
Jer 8:8 - " How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.
And so i ask you, who meticulously penned the OT? Oh the tanach?
Do not get me as wrong. Jesus plays into that most undoubtedly, but most overlook how it is exactly that G.d declared it to be so.Too many believe that if they do in fact leap with a faith filled heart, the net will magically materialize out of thin air! Sorry to say.. I took a guided tour of that leap and as I suspected.. there is no magical net. :no:
Not a man.. that is damn sure. I worship G.d in both spirit and Truth. It is knowledge coupled with understanding via "intimacy." Just because a man declares that they are the Truth does not mean I am going to throw myself at them in total adoration via blind faith in what they say. However, the Word speaks the Truth; The Word shows the way; and the Word gives Life. Jesus represented the Word incarnate (as did others in the Tanakh).. but to worship the man and believe the story surrounding him in the literal sense is to have missed the Truth by a long shot; it is to have missed that intimate understanding of the Truth.
I really do not doubt this at all.
AK4, you know how I see the above... BS in all honesty. I have stated already, faith is only mentioned twice in the Tanakh. The one time that it was mentioned in the context that you are implying, it is an admonition; a red flag to alert; a *wink wink* type of usage. The other time, it was implying faithfulness. There is a difference between faith and faithfulness. Find me any other time in which faith, as it applies to your context, is used in the Tanakh. How about "belief?"
Malachi 3 clearly states that we are to ask G.d to prove Himself and that if we would do so, we would be blessd.. can you think as to why this might be?? That pretty much clears up how G.d feels about the type of faith many of you subscribe to. I can ask Jesus to prove himself to me until I am blue in the face and it will do no good.. know why? Because IF he ever even existed, he no longer does. He was but a man. He had a beginning and an end... yet his end did not affect my beginning at all or the beginning and endings of any other humans that came into existence. There is an eternal Word though, and without that, then neither would Jesus nor any of us have existd.
So, no.. all one has to do is look at the post above yours to see that I do not stereotype. Yes, I see this as hypocrisy. A struggle to do what should come easy to us; oppressive and burdening; and controlling... not at all something that is spoken with the blessing of the G.d of the Tanakh. I do not believe in "works." I believe in being me; in living and learning and applying what I learn.. a perfect guide one might use is the Laws of G.d; after all, G.d did say they were perfect for converting the soul (note the use of "converting"... meaning it is not a one time perfection cure.. it is an experience type of learning process). :yes:
Considering that G.d said in Isaiah 45: 18, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.".. seems to me like G.d had a good reason for making man natural; i.e. physical. Funny how Paul always thinks he knows better than G.d. If one is always so focused on being spiritual, then they miss so many of the great opportunities for learning from the natural world. Did you think He made it in vain?
Where did I say that He chooses us. Surely you are pulling something I said out of context as I do not agree. G.d makes it clear that we are to choose Him; this is the only way in which understanding will be opened up to us. Thanks for the assessment of my heart by the way. I am sure that the Jesus you worship will be proud of the fine judge he has helped to turn you into.
Certainly, if "Father" is referring to G.d, the Creator, than of course I have not seen His shape.. I have seen evidence of Him though.. all of us have whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. I will disagree though quite adamently that I have not heard His Voice. I *hear* it quite clearly in fact.. but my physical ears could not perceive His Voice.. I first had to develop the ability to *hear* in another way. Verse 38 and 39 is quite true. Many do believe they have eternal life and yet, this just goes to prove that they do not search the Scriptures with His understanding; only G.d has eternal life. And if one would substitute Jesus with "the Word of G.d," then CERTAINLY the Scriptures do testify to that Word and what would happen to that Word. But most choose to believe that the Word could actually be a man.
I think that some misunderstand the difference between faith and knowledge... some mislabel what they know as being "faith".. no worries, I once made the mistake as well until my..err.. mentor pointed out the truth to me.
Yes, I see this as hypocrisy. A struggle to do what should come easy to us; oppressive and burdening; and controlling... not at all something that is spoken with the blessing of the G.d of the Tanakh. I do not believe in "works." I believe in being me; in living and learning and applying what I learn.. a perfect guide one might use is the Laws of G.d; after all, G.d did say they were perfect for converting the soul (note the use of "converting"... meaning it is not a one time perfection cure.. it is an experience type of learning process). :yes:
Considering that G.d said in Isaiah 45: 18, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.".. seems to me like G.d a good reason for making man natural. Funny how Paul always thinks he knows better than G.d. If one is always so focused on being spiritual, then they miss so many of the great opportunities for learning from the natural world. Did you think He made it in vain?
Where did I say that He chooses us. Surely you are pulling something I said out of context as I do not agree. G.d makes it clear that we are to choose Him; this is the only way in which understanding will be opened up to us. Thanks for the assessment of my heart by the way. I am sure that the Jesus you worship will be proud of the fine judge he has helped to turn you into.
Certainly, if "Father" is referring to G.d, the Creator, than of course I have not seen His shape.. I have seen evidence of Him though.. all of us have whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. I will disagree though quite adamently that I have not heard His Voice. I *hear* it quite clearly in fact.. but my physical ears could not perceive His Voice.. I first had to develop the ability to *hear* in another way. Verse 38 and 39 is quite true. Many do believe they have eternal life and yet, this just goes to prove that they do not search the Scriptures with His understanding; only G.d has eternal life. And if one would substitute Jesus with "the Word of G.d," then CERTAINLY the Scriptures do testify to that Word and what would happen to that Word. But most choose to believe that the Word could actually be a man.
If you would like to explain it to me, then by all means; I am not opposed, but chances are I have heard it quite often.. I just did not agree with it. :no:
I am confused... you keep trying to explain and then you usually end up by saying that He is not allowing you to explain or that today is not the day... yet, you say you believe the Jesus, correct? Need I remind you that Jesus said, "Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."(Luke 21: 14 & 15); and "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." (john 15: 7 & 8); and "And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (Matthew 10: 18-20); and "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops." (Matthew 10: 26 & 27): and " But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." (Mark 13:11)... I believe these things and I do not claim to have the faith in Jesus, the man that is, the way you do. Never am I left without an answer for so long when I am stuck and I ask G.d for an answer. He answers quite quickly in fact through His Word.. the Scriptures and even more a proof to me, G.d has given me the words to say without having to search the Scriptures and only later does He confirm that I did not speak out of line when I look in His Word. So I am always wondering why your tongue is tied if you believe Jesus to be the Truth. When will be the day that Jesus finally keeps his promise to you by giving you the words that you seem to be seeking to share with me?