=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[Ben Masada]

You have a wild imagination, are all Jews like you.

Well, let's say we have a mind of our own. I thought you knew that Jews can think.

 

[Breathe]

Am I the only non-Christian who believes that what Jesus said was merely a test of her faith and patience?

I see it as a way of Jesus saying, "If she is sincere, she continue to seek and she will humble herself." and, since as a Canaanite she'd probably have her own faith to go to, and Jesus' initial refusal here shows me that she will be shunned in her faith for not going to the temple priests for help, but coming to an outsider.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Hey Odion
I don't think He was testing the mother of a child in distress.
That would be harsh.
That the Carpenter would ask a question now and then...
is much more a lesson opportunity, to anyone else watching the incident...
such as His own disciples...who needed to be shown...
the bread of the children CAN be dealt unto 'dogs'.

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread...
His own people were slow about learning.
No reason then to withhold the bread from others.
(the wedding feast would be such a parable.)
His parables had to be explained even to His own followers.
The culture at the time was steep in tradition, and any teaching would fall to scrutiny if not taken directly from text already known.

So...how do you teach...when so many...even chosen followers...will not hear anything new?
The people around Him expected prophets to recite what was already at hand.
They thought of themselves to be a special race and culture.

That any prophet would have any dealings with gentiles would count that prophet as false.
So when the mother came begging the life of her child....
the Carpenter showed Himself... as His followers would want Him to be.
Having done that...He then showed them what they SHOULD be.

 

[sojourner]

And you are such an expert on Matthew that you have your eyes patched for what is written in Matthew about the Canaanite woman. (Mat 15:21-28.)

Obviously more of an expert than you

 

[sojourner]

Sorry Thief, but what you want is to rewrite the NT. It's impossible. We have to deal with what we have.

What makes you think that Jesus had what it takes to be the Messiah?

If there was any attitude in the disciples to stand off from any non-Jewish person, Jesus was the one who forbade them to approach Gentiles. It's written and we cannot change it. (Mat. 10:6)

I disagree with his take, as well. Yet, the whole thrust of Matthew seems to be the integration of the "them" with the "us" -- the "good" with the "bad." In fact, that's the whole key to Matthew's gospel -- that the community is composed of good and bad, and you can't always tell the difference.

 

[sojourner]

actually jesus is only giving us an esample of what religious people do. Don't they even today call others heathen, gentiles, infedels; dogs is only a word to wrap them all togeter, read revelation 22 - 15.

we should look on that episode and take note that also the so called dogs have faith and that God honors all faiths if that faith is holy, (for the women's faith was working by the love for her doughter.) jesus therefore used that episode to teach us that God looks at the heart. But if you think that he did something wrong you do not know jesus.

I don't think so. Mathew clearly uses the pericope to stress the importance of faith in the face of overwhelming odds -- not, as you say, to give an example of "what the religious authorities do." Your assumption just doesn't fit into the Matthean scheme.

 

[sojourner]

I am sorry but you are blindly trying to rewrite the NT just to justify whatever seems to have been a bad thing Jesus did.

It wasn't a "bad thing." Jesus did, after all, heal the daughter.

 

[sojourner]

And you are so bias about Jesus that anyone can see how afraid you are to acknowledge his weaknesses.

Sorry. I don't see where this "weakness" is.

 

[sojourner]

Thief here...Hey Odion
I don't think He was testing the mother of a child in distress.
That would be harsh.
That the Carpenter would ask a question now and then...
is much more a lesson opportunity, to anyone else watching the incident...
such as His own disciples...who needed to be shown...
the bread of the children CAN be dealt unto 'dogs'.

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread...
His own people were slow about learning.
No reason then to withhold the bread from others.
(the wedding feast would be such a parable.)
His parables had to be explained even to His own followers.
The culture at the time was steep in tradition, and any teaching would fall to scrutiny if not taken directly from text already known.

So...how do you teach...when so many...even chosen followers...will not hear anything new?
The people around Him expected prophets to recite what was already at hand.
They thought of themselves to be a special race and culture.

That any prophet would have any dealings with gentiles would count that prophet as false.
So when the mother came begging the life of her child....
the Carpenter showed Himself... as His followers would want Him to be.
Having done that...He then showed them what they SHOULD be.

This isn't about Jesus. It's about faith.

 

[free spirit]

TO BEN MASADA

And you are so bias about Jesus that anyone can see how afraid you are to acknowledge his weaknesses.

You are missing the point Ben Masada the dog rapresent an unclean animal, those outside his chosen people were also seen as unclean, so Jesus was true to his Jewish believes by saying that.
What happened to Peter in ACTS 10 - 12 to 15, contains the answer, but to the untrained eye these verses would apper that the vision was refering to food but when you read them in context with verse 28 all comes into place for we read;
"And Peter said to them, you yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."
So you have fully convinced me that Jesus is foolishness to the umbeliever and a stumbling block to the Jews, and it is taking place before my eyes. Your believes are so far from the truth that it could be compared to this ( the pro Nazi say that there was no holocaust, and the Jews say that Jesus was not the Messiah) one is as bad as the other for they both negate the truth.
And another thing why do you think the Jews have suffered persecutions at the hand of different nationality in the past 2000 years? AND IF YOU DO NOT YET KNOW READ AGAIN WHAT PETER SAID ABOVE.

 

[free spirit]

i don't think so. Mathew clearly uses the pericope to stress the importance of faith in the face of overwhelming odds -- not, as you say, to give an example of "what the religious authorities do." your assumption just doesn't fit into the matthean scheme.

yes what you say is true, but her love for her daughter was the driving force, as i said "faith worked by love" and god sees that and honor it despite her state of uncleanness.
well all religions considers those outside it, unsaved therefore unclean. Dog is only a demeaning word to describe it.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...170+ posts and counting

All of this started with Masada's objection and ridicule of the Carpenter's reply as the mother of a distressed child, approached the Carpenter.

My posts relieve such objection. In teaching His disciples a better attitude, His demeanor is explained.

Ignore my posts if you care to....but if you do Ben Masada stands correct.

 

[free spirit]

Thief here...170+ posts and counting

All of this started with Masada's objection and ridicule of the Carpenter's reply as the mother of a distressed child, approached the Carpenter.

My posts relieve such objection. In teaching His disciples a better attitude, His demeanor is explained.

Ignore my posts if you care to....but if you do Ben Masada stands correct.

STAND CORRECT ON WHAT? His believes are so far out that it is inconprehensible how he got there.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...
There are rules to rebuttal.

Masada's initial post is designed to defame the Carpenter's character.
He is using the gospels against the Carpenter.

He will object to any opposition that is not Scripture.

Scripture does not render the cause for the Carpenter's attitude.
Masada knows this.
You cannot defend the Carpenter with written Scripture.
Masada feels safe in his accusation of the Carpenter 'doing something bad'.

My previous posts lend cause and excuse for the Carpenter's demeanor.
Take them away...or ignore them... and Masada's complaint cannot be remedied.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Am I the only non-Christian who believes that what Jesus said was merely a test of her faith and patience?

Sounds like an awful test... administered by violating several fundamental Jewish principles regarding the treatment of our fellow... especially the treatment of gentiles.

Things like "Do not oppress a stranger for you were yourselves once strangers in the land of Egypt"...

There are also strong and certain principles prohibiting humiliation.

This woman was a woman in need, and there is no way in which I can find Jesus' response to her acceptable.

 

[Poisonshady313]

TO BEN MASADA

You are missing the point Ben Masada the dog rapresent an unclean animal, those outside his chosen people were also seen as unclean, so Jesus was true to his Jewish believes by saying that.

Not so. This assertion is rather slanderous. I hope you know that. The Jews do not hold non-Jews in such low regard. The assumption that Jews do hold non-Jews in such low regard has been one among many causes of anti-semitism for thousands of years.

What happened to Peter in ACTS 10 - 12 to 15, contains the answer, but to the untrained eye these verses would apper that the vision was refering to food but when you read them in context with verse 28 all comes into place for we read;

"And Peter said to them, you yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."
So you have fully convinced me that Jesus is foolishness to the umbeliever and a stumbling block to the Jews, and it is taking place before my eyes. Your believes are so far from the truth that it could be compared to this ( the pro Nazi say that there was no holocaust, and the Jews say that Jesus was not the Messiah) one is as bad as the other for they both negate the truth.

It's never a good idea to compare Jews to Nazis, or Nazi sympathizers.

And another thing why do you think the Jews have suffered persecutions at the hand of different nationality in the past 2000 years? AND IF YOU DO NOT YET KNOW READ AGAIN WHAT PETER SAID ABOVE.

Ignorance is the reason why they have been persecuted for the past 2000 years. Whether they were ignorantly claiming that Jews killed their lord, or ignorantly claiming that Jews thought non-Jews were unclean, or ignorantly claiming that Jews were trying to sabatoge whatever nation they lived in because that is in their nature....

 

[blackout]

Instead of working hard to pay his taxes like everyone else,
he manifests his dues in the mouth of a fish,
and doesn't even go to pick the money up himself!

lazy homeless people.

Multiplying OTHER PEOPLE'S loaves and fish...

mooching off the hospitality of others....
and he actively ENCOURAGED THIS of his followers.

get a REAL job, you know?
Work hard and be responsible for yourself.

 

[free spirit]

Not so. This assertion is rather slanderous. I hope you know that. The Jews do not hold non-Jews in such low regard. The assumption that Jews do hold non-Jews in such low regard has been one among many causes of anti-semitism for thousands of years.
Have you read what Peter said in my last post? for it leaves no ambiguity: but you know that the worse blinds are those who do not want to see.
Today some, some I say, Jews makes out not to be different but in Jesus days was another mater.



It's never a good idea to compare Jews to Nazis, or Nazi sympathizers. but their believes could be just as wrong




Ignorance is the reason why they have been persecuted for the past 2000 years. Whether they were ignorantly claiming that Jews killed their lord, or ignorantly claiming that Jews thought non-Jews were unclean, or ignorantly claiming that Jews were trying to sabatoge whatever nation they lived in because that is in their nature....

Let me enlighten you: none of the above were the reasons, they may have been the excuse but not the reason. The Jews believe even today that they are the chosen people of God, so they kill Palestinians to take their land, because as we know God has given it to them, by doing that they dishonour God, for God would never employ death and destruction to get something, death and destruction is the Devil tool. And so today people like me who love God and wants to love the Jews but connot accept what they are doing. So Ipocresy is the sin of the jews that is why they were not well regarded.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...this topic will never die...
So much digression...it's turning into a Jew vs. Christian debate.
Please review post#174.

 

[blackout]

My post #177 was inspired by Rev. Rick.

He is finally starting to affect my thinking it seems......