=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[sojourner]

yes what you say is true, but her love for her daughter was the driving force, as i said "faith worked by love" and god sees that and honor it despite her state of uncleanness.
well all religions considers those outside it, unsaved therefore unclean. Dog is only a demeaning word to describe it.

Except that the thrust of Xy would be that God honors it precisely because of her uncleanliness. Xy celebrates the unclean outsider (as in the Beattitudes -- blessed are the poor, blessed are those who are reviled...).

 

[Poisonshady313]

Let me enlighten you: none of the above were the reasons, they may have been the excuse but not the reason. The Jews believe even today that they are the chosen people of God, so they kill Palestinians to take their land,

Actually, the majority in Israel is a non-religious majority. They kill Palestinians to defend themselves after gaining land in a defensive war in which 8 Arab nations descended upon Israel to exterminate it.

because as we know God has given it to them, by doing that they dishonour God, for God would never employ death and destruction to get something, death and destruction is the Devil tool.

Spoken like someone who has never read the bible. Ever hear about what happened to Amalek? Midian? Moab? Gibeon?

God would never employ death and destruction to get something? 6 out of 7 Canaanite nations beg to differ.

And so today people like me who love God and wants to love the Jews but connot accept what they are doing. So Ipocresy is the sin of the jews that is why they were not well regarded.

The Jews are now and have always been a sheep among 70 wolves. The sin of the Jews is why there is no temple... it is why we are scattered... but it does NOT justify thousands of years of merciless persecution and hatred against us.

It was told that the Jews would be slaves in Egypt, and that they would be redeemed from that slavery.... and the Egyptians were punished for it. Because they could have simply made the Jews stay around as servants and builders and such... but because they employed cruel oppression, they were drowned in the very sea that God split for Israel.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thief here...Hey Odion
I don't think He was testing the mother of a child in distress.
That would be harsh.
That the Carpenter would ask a question now and then...
is much more a lesson opportunity, to anyone else watching the incident...
such as His own disciples...who needed to be shown...
the bread of the children CAN be dealt unto 'dogs'.

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread...
His own people were slow about learning.
No reason then to withhold the bread from others.
(the wedding feast would be such a parable.)
His parables had to be explained even to His own followers.
The culture at the time was steep in tradition, and any teaching would fall to scrutiny if not taken directly from text already known.

So...how do you teach...when so many...even chosen followers...will not hear anything new?
The people around Him expected prophets to recite what was already at hand.
They thought of themselves to be a special race and culture.

That any prophet would have any dealings with gentiles would count that prophet as false.
So when the mother came begging the life of her child....
the Carpenter showed Himself... as His followers would want Him to be.
Having done that...He then showed them what they SHOULD be.

Your post assumes that the culture of the people of the carpenter thought so poorly of gentiles that the only natural response would be to degrade them, as if this was the only way the people would understand an interaction between a Jew and a gentile. As per something I've explained in another post, this is horribly slanderous... an inaccurate representation of the people at the time, and their traditions and laws regarding the treatment of people in need, especially non-Jews.

I have personally seen Jews who, being well studied and well versed in the laws and traditions of Judaism, with no axe to grind against Christianity, have read that story, and were outraged that a Jew would treat anybody that poorly... especially a non-Jew.

To say "that was the way the people felt at the time" is a shameful lie, designed only to make the Jews look like horrible people.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d. Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. Although we refer to ourselves as G-d's chosen people, we do not believe that G-d chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority. According to the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 2b), G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as "at the foot of the mountain" literally mean "underneath the mountain"!) Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d's might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations.
Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.

The Seven Laws of Noah

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.
The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion). In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.

Judaism 101: Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews



The notion that Jews consider gentiles "unclean" is ridiculous and slanderous. I am shocked that this is so commonly and casually used to explain why Jesus treated this woman the way he did.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Post #1 is not a complaint on my part.
Masada is the one deriding the Carpenter's demeanor as the woman makes her approach.
My previous posts are aimed at relieving that complaint.
And of course...as Masada would point out...rewriting Scripture is something Masada frowns on.

So...I made no attempt to say the Carpenter did not insult the woman.

He did.

My posts are an attempt to explain WHY He did it.
And He did so to stop His own disciples from making such practice of shunning.
That would be the cause for His demeanor.
He had to SHOW them the error in their ways.

So... He went on to teach the parable of the good Samaritan.
You can be sure that teaching was NOT well received by His own countrymen.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thief here...Post #1 is not a complaint on my part.
Masada is the one deriding the Carpenter's demeanor as the woman makes her approach.
My previous posts are aimed at relieving that complaint.
And of course...as Masada would point out...rewriting Scripture is something Masada frowns on.

So...I made no attempt to say the Carpenter did not insult the woman.

He did.

My posts are an attempt to explain WHY He did it.

I get that... though I must say his reason wasn't a good one. It sounds like he was teaching a lesson that need not be taught, because it was ingrained in the culture for at least 1300 years at that point. So... all he ended up doing was insult not just the poor woman... but the entirety of his people, whom he mistook for pompous elitists and ethnocentric bigots.

And He did so to stop His own disciples from making such practice of shunning.
That would be the cause for His demeanor.
He had to SHOW them the error in their ways.

I imagine he could have done so without violating the Torah in the manner that he did.

So... He went on to teach the parable of the good Samaritan.
You can be sure that teaching was NOT well received by His own countrymen.

And I'm sure you have a theory about why... here's mine.

The parable of the good Samaritan seems to bridge the divide between two cultures that consider each other enemies.... for the sake of doing good things for people, despite one's differences.

HOWEVER

If you pay attention to how the story is crafted, it serves the purpose of maligning the Jews as a people. Here's how.

The story talks of a Priest, of a Levite, and of a Samaritan. There are three categories of Jews... Priest, Levite, and Israelite. The Priest and the Levite do not stop to help their fellow in need... which is bad enough, to lead with the idea that those who have a higher standard of holiness and compassion would do nothing.... but to then leave the third category, the average Jew, out completely... sends the message that Jews are incapable of showing compassion or love for another.... that not even the average Jew merits a mention... it goes straight to the enemy of the Jews, so as to say Jews are heartless, while their enemies are praiseworthy because they would stop to help someone despite the conflict between the two peoples.

It saddens me to see that perhaps one of the more anti-semitic figures of the bible is Jesus himself.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Hey Poison...
I see you get the jest of my posting.
Allow me to fine tune it.

Picture yourself as the Teacher.
Most of what you say your followers can understand.
But some of the more important ideas, in the form of parables, needs face to face tutoring.
That would be difficulty in itself.
But then, out in public...so many more...raise objection,
and some of that objection could have resulted in His immediate death.

When dealing face to face with the pharisees, He wasn't well liked.
After speaking in the temple His own people nearly killed Him.
And then came that incident of whipping the crowd until the temple emptied.

Yes it appears... He might not favor His own kind.
But He wasn't speaking for His own sake.

 

[free spirit]

TO POISONSHADY

Actually, the majority in Israel is a non-religious majority. They kill Palestinians to defend themselves after gaining land in a defensive war in which 8 Arab nations descended upon Israel to exterminate it.
I am very sorry about that, but I thought that a bunch of migrants called Jews with no connection to that land, armed with a 4000 years old fairytale which claimed that land theirs, and violently dispossessing the inhabitants of that land.
You do not understand to be a Jew is like to be a Christian IT IS A RELIGION, and not a nationality.

Spoken like someone who has never read the bible. Ever hear about what happened to Amalek? Midian? Moab? Gibeon? YET again you are promoting fairytales.

God would never employ death and destruction to get something? 6 out of 7 Canaanite nations beg to differ. So according to you the HOLY GOD OF LOVE is a war lord. No wonder hypocrisy is rampant among religious people.

The Jews are now and have always been a sheep among 70 wolves. The sin of the Jews is why there is no temple... it is why we are scattered... but it does NOT justify thousands of years of merciless persecution and hatred against us.
BRAVO now you are the wolves, that i am sure will please God.:sarcastic
You still do not get the message do you? I break the news to you gently God has no lomger a use for the temple, for now our body is his temple. The Diaspora was a Hebrew's way of spreading God's law. But with the coming of Christ their primary purpose for been together as a people had ended, and so they were intirely scattered.
IT IS ALLWAIS A SAD THING TO SEE PEOPLE SUFFER BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE;
IT IS UNJUSTIFIBLE, so please do not do to the Palestinians what you did not like others do to you.

It was told that the Jews would be slaves in Egypt, and that they would be redeemed from that slavery.... and the Egyptians were punished for it. Because they could have simply made the Jews stay around as servants and builders and such... but because they employed cruel oppression, they were drowned in the very sea that God split for Israel.

You watch to many Hollywood's movies; it was a fairytale used to tell a story of your heart, which is a slave to the passions of this world, and how you could be freed from them. As you know the Egyptian empire extended over the promise land, so in fact the Hebrews never left Egypt. Egypt stands for the lusts of the world, wake up!!! And REPENT, OR RETURN TO GOD.

 

[Ben Masada]

Am I the only non-Christian who believes that what Jesus said was merely a test of her faith and patience?

I see it as a way of Jesus saying, "If she is sincere, she continue to seek and she will humble herself." and, since as a Canaanite she'd probably have her own faith to go to, and Jesus' initial refusal here shows me that she will be shunned in her faith for not going to the temple priests for help, but coming to an outsider.

And whom was Jesus testing when in his speech to a crowd of Jews, he told them not to give what is holy to dogs or toss their pearls before swine? (Mat. 7:6)

And whom was Jesus testing, when every time he sent his disciples on the mission to spread the news about the Kingdom of God, he would forbide them not to visit the Gentiles or even enter a Samaritan town? (Mat. 10:6)

And why would he need to test that Gentile woman if he had declared himself that he had come only to the Jews? (Mat. 15:24)

Sorry, but I think your reasons to justify Jesus' attitude are contradictory.

 

[ayani]

initially He restricted His mission to the Jews. He identified Himself and was identified by others as the Jewish Messiah, so it would make sense for Him to stay among the Jews for most of His ministry.

He also healed many non-Jews, and sent them to tell their own communities about Him. for example, the Samaritan woman at the well and the demon-possessed man at Gadarenes, the Roman centurion with a sick servant, and other cases.

according to the Book of Acts, missionary work among the Gentiles began in great earnest after Christ's death and resurrection, and was very successful. the earliest believers were Jews, yet many Gentiles were also among that rank.

 

[Ben Masada]

I disagree with his take, as well. Yet, the whole thrust of Matthew seems to be the integration of the "them" with the "us" -- the "good" with the "bad." In fact, that's the whole key to Matthew's gospel -- that the community is composed of good and bad, and you can't always tell the difference.

There is no evil. Everything God created, behold it was good. Read Genesis 1:4,10,12,18,21,25. Evil is what is made when man ill uses his freewill. Evil is but the opposite of good. Just as darkness is the opposite of light.

 

[Ben Masada]

It wasn't a "bad thing." Jesus did, after all, heal the daughter.

I am not talking about the good thing he did, but the unecessary bad thing that preceeded the good one. He had no interest in Gentiles to need to test the faith
of that one. Read Matthew 10:6.

 

[Ben Masada]

Sorry. I don't see where this "weakness" is.

If to torture a desperate mother down to the depth of a dog condition when there was no need for that is not a sigh of human weakness, I don't know what weakness is.

 

[Ben Masada]

TO BEN MASADA

You are missing the point Ben Masada the dog rapresent an unclean animal, those outside his chosen people were also seen as unclean, so Jesus was true to his Jewish believes by saying that.

Ben: Great! So, Jesus had succumbed to the social peer pressure of evil ones. That's odd!

What happened to Peter in ACTS 10 - 12 to 15, contains the answer, but to the untrained eye these verses would apper that the vision was refering to food but when you read them in context with verse 28 all comes into place for we read;

Ben: Are you trying to tell me that Jesus did not know that God had made it clear that no one should consider any man unclean or impure? So, why would he forbid his disciples to take the news of the Kingdom of God to the Gentiles?
(Mat. 10:6)

"And Peter said to them, you yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."

Ben: Does it mean Peter was more special than Jesus to get that revelation which was never given to Jesus?

So you have fully convinced me that Jesus is foolishness to the umbeliever and a stumbling block to the Jews, and it is taking place before my eyes.

Ben: Jesus was made a stumbling block to the Jews more in the sense that Christianity throughout History has used his name to persecute the Jews. What Jews suffered under the cold steel of the Christian sword of the Crusades and the fiery Christian "Auto-da-Fe" of the Inquisition, not to mention hundreds of pogroms was all in the name of Jesus, when Jesus never had anything to do with it.

Your believes are so far from the truth that it could be compared to this ( the pro Nazi say that there was no holocaust, and the Jews say that Jesus was not the Messiah) one is as bad as the other for they both negate the truth.

Ben: And you negate the truth when you contradict Isaiah the Prophet in his assertion when he gives the Messiah by name as Israel so that no one needs to assume that he was Jesus.

And another thing why do you think the Jews have suffered persecutions at the hand of different nationality in the past 2000 years? AND IF YOU DO NOT YET KNOW READ AGAIN WHAT PETER SAID ABOVE.

Ben: If you can be more specific, I didn't get the reason why the Jews have suffered persecutions at the hands of Chritianity throughout History.

 

[Ben Masada]

initially He restricted His mission to the Jews. He identified Himself and was identified by others as the Jewish Messiah, so it would make sense for Him to stay among the Jews for most of His ministry.

He also healed many non-Jews, and sent them to tell their own communities about Him. for example, the Samaritan woman at the well and the demon-possessed man at Gadarenes, the Roman centurion with a sick servant, and other cases.

according to the Book of Acts, missionary work among the Gentiles began in great earnest after Christ's death and resurrection, and was very successful. the earliest believers were Jews, yet many Gentiles were also among that rank.

Sorry Ayani, but Jesus never identified himself as the Messiah. If he had identified himself as the Messiah, which in Greek means Christ, Luke would not have said that the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch, 30 years later, because of Paul's preaching that Jesus was Christ. (Acts 11:26)

 

[free spirit]

TO BEN MASADA

You are missing the point Ben Masada the dog rapresent an unclean animal, those outside his chosen people were also seen as unclean, so Jesus was true to his Jewish believes by saying that.

Ben: Great! So, Jesus had succumbed to the social peer pressure of evil ones. That's odd!
FS. No, then there was no political correcteness, The Jews were after all the chosen people of God, so they kept themsevs separated as it were, was not a sin, Jesus voiced the reality of the day. The women also identified herself with dogs

What happened to Peter in ACTS 10 - 12 to 15, contains the answer, but to the untrained eye these verses would apper that the vision was refering to food but when you read them in context with verse 28 all comes into place for we read;

Ben: Are you trying to tell me that Jesus did not know that God had made it clear that no one should consider any man unclean or impure? So, why would he forbid his disciples to take the news of the Kingdom of God to the Gentiles?
(Mat. 10:6)
FS. Jesus forbid his disciples to preach to the Gentiles because he had come to his people, and his people only. After his people rejected him then he was send to whomsoever would receive him.

"And Peter said to them, you yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."

Ben: Does it mean Peter was more special than Jesus to get that revelation which was never given to Jesus?
FS. No but with the sinless death of Jesus Christ all of Humanity was justfied, therefore acceptable to God

So you have fully convinced me that Jesus is foolishness to the umbeliever and a stumbling block to the Jews, and it is taking place before my eyes.

Ben: Jesus was made a stumbling block to the Jews more in the sense that Christianity throughout History has used his name to persecute the Jews. What Jews suffered under the cold steel of the Christian sword of the Crusades and the fiery Christian "Auto-da-Fe" of the Inquisition, not to mention hundreds of pogroms was all in the name of Jesus, when Jesus never had anything to do with it.
FS. Yes but at the beginning the jews persecuted the Christians, you only have to read ACTS to learn about that. Two wrongs does not make it wight. But when Christianity persecuted the Jews or anyone it had become a religion, and had lost the character of God.
Your believes are so far from the truth that it could be compared to this ( the pro Nazi say that there was no holocaust, and the Jews say that Jesus was not the Messiah) one is as bad as the other for they both negate the truth.

Ben: And you negate the truth when you contradict Isaiah the Prophet in his assertion when he gives the Messiah by name as Israel so that no one needs to assume that he was Jesus.
FS. I know that the all descendents of Jacob are Israel, the church is Israel, the bride of Christ.

And another thing why do you think the Jews have suffered persecutions at the hand of different nationality in the past 2000 years? AND IF YOU DO NOT YET KNOW READ AGAIN WHAT PETER SAID ABOVE.

Ben: If you can be more specific, I didn't get the reason why the Jews have suffered persecutions at the hands of Chritianity throughout History.

FS. I have answered this question on anather post please go back and read it

 

[Ben Masada]

FS. I have answered this question on anather post please go back and read it

You are the one supposed to tell me the number of the post you would like me to reply to it.

 

[free spirit]

to ben masada
BY FREE SPIRIT
And another thing why do you think that the Jews have suffered persecution at the hands of different nationality in the past 2000 years. AND IF YOU DO NOT YET KNOW READ AGAIN WHAT PETER SAID ABOVE

BY POISONSHADY
Ignorance is the reason why they have been persecuted for the past 2000 years. Whether they were ignorantly claiming that Jews killed their lord, or ignorantly claiming that Jews thought non-Jews were unclean, or ignorantly claiming that Jews were trying to sabatoge whatever nation they lived in because that is in their nature....

[/quote]
BEN THIS DISCUSSION GOS BACK TO PAGE 17 SO HAVE A QUEEK LOOK

Let me enlighten you: none of the above were the reasons, they may have been the excuse but not the reason. The Jews believe even today that they are the chosen people of God, so they kill Palestinians to take their land, because as we know God has given it to them, by doing that they dishonour God, for God would never employ death and destruction to get something, death and destruction is the Devil tool. And so today people like me who love God and wants to love the Jews but connot accept what they are doing. So Ipocresy is the sin of the jews that is why they were not well regarded.

 

[sojourner]

There is no evil. Everything God created, behold it was good. Read Genesis 1:4,10,12,18,21,25. Evil is what is made when man ill uses his freewill. Evil is but the opposite of good. Just as darkness is the opposite of light.

I didn't mention evil anywhere in my post, did I?
We're not talking about evil here.
We're talking about those people who are "acceptable," and those who are "unacceptable."

 

[sojourner]

I am not talking about the good thing he did, but the unecessary bad thing that preceeded the good one. He had no interest in Gentiles to need to test the faith
of that one. Read Matthew 10:6.

So...
Is this part of the "20% of Matthew that is reliable," or the part of the "80% of Matthew that is bull****?"

And what criteria are you using to determine the difference?

Or are you just playing us?