Something from nothing...

[ryanam]

Well I'm really don't understand what this topic is about then. I'm really confused on what is expected from this.

The point of this was to find people's beliefs on the subject or creation. The idea I put in the OP was to let people think a little bit.

I would then question the reasoning for that belief as a means not to convert anyone but to understand why people believe things which cannot be known by any human being on this planet.

It was to allow both parties to open their minds a little more.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

The first cause argument boggles my mind…Everything in the universe needs a cause, the universe exists, therefore it had a cause - which is God…HAHA.

However it amazes me that people who insert God as the cause absolve God of having a cause. Its turtles all the way down.

 

[illykitty]

I think a thought process should be mandatory for anything subjective. Its like shwoing your working when doing a maths problem. Saves confusion, shows how one arrives at point B from point A. Is it too much to ask for a paragraph of explaination?

I dislike being told that I am closed minded for not adopting an approach without a thought process to follow other than arriving at a conclusion.

Well I did, over a long period of time. I'm sorry but it's really long and it would be basically telling you about 6+ years of research, most I don't even remember, going from full on atheist to theist. And it's not like I documented everything.

You don't just come to something like that overnight. Best to ask someone else if they're willing to. I'm not willing to post something this huge to someone who probably won't care and dismiss it as bogus anyway.

I only came to share my point of view, that's all.

 

[ryanam]

Well I did, over a long period of time. I'm sorry but it's really long and it would be basically telling you about 6+ years of research, most I don't even remember, going from full on atheist to theist.

You don't just come to something like that overnight. Best to ask someone else if they're willing to. I'm not willing to post something this huge to someone who probably won't care and dismiss it as bogus anyway.

I only came to share my point of view, that's all.

Ok... maybe you could give some examples of observable, substantial reasons to go from atheist to theist?

 

[Pegg]

You made two distinct claims to know that god does not depend on physical properties of space and time and that god is, essentially, energy. Specifically the energy representable in matter.

Can you explain how you came to know both the state in which god lives and what makes up it's physical presence?

sure, the Bible tells us the nature of God: John 4:24 'God is a Spirit' The word 'spirit' in greek means basically 'blow' or 'wind'...it represents an invisible force. So that is what God is...he is an invisible powerful force and he uses his power to create.

It tells us that he is invisible and eternal at 1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, [the] only God

It tells us that the source of all the energy in the universe, the billions of stars, comes from God. the Bible writer Isaiah says: “Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.”—Isaiah 40:26.

 

[darkendless]

Well I did, over a long period of time. I'm sorry but it's really long and it would be basically telling you about 6+ years of research, most I don't even remember, going from full on atheist to theist. And it's not like I documented everything.

You don't just come to something like that overnight. Best to ask someone else if they're willing to. I'm not willing to post something this huge to someone who probably won't care and dismiss it as bogus anyway.

I only came to share my point of view, that's all.

As much as you don't want to write a novel I won't read it. Less is often more, a quick explanayion usually does the trick.

If you opened with: My belief is "such and such" which is why I believe "such and such" it wouldn't have been an issue, I wouldn't have even replied. However, you spoke in absolute terms which I must stress is a bold move with so many of us "militants" out there waiting for someone to do so.

Simply stating your beliefs does not help anyone to learn anything. It would be like learning complex maths problems by looking at answers without working. How you arrive at your conclusions is how everyone on here learns something. I know it may be exhausting but even brief sentences explaining your thoughts help the rest of us to better understand where you're coming from.

 

[ryanam]

sure, the Bible tells us the nature of God...

Let's not waste eachother's time. The bible isn't proof of anything, historically. Is has more inconsistencies than I'd care to start talking about.

It was also written by men who have as much factual understanding of the supernatural as both of us do. In fact less, considering the period in time.

Observed fact for debate please.

 

[Pegg]

Let's not waste eachother's time. The bible isn't proof of anything, historically. Is has more inconsistencies than I'd care to start talking about.

It was also written by men who have as much factual understanding of the supernatural as both of us do. In fact less, considering the period in time.

Observed fact for debate please.

lol,

your religion is well fitting.

 

[ryanam]

I hold no religion in god in the same way you hold no belief that the moon is not made of cheese. You don't label yourself according to this disbelief you take it as given... it doesn't even need to be discussed.

The anti-theist label comes because as well as not believing in it, I wouldn't want it to exist.

This holds no bearing on a requirement for actual reasoning beyond the contents of an ancient book written by human beings though. I ask for reasoning behind your belief in the same way you would if I professed a belief which WAS made of cheese, leaving out the fact that that belief caused countless deaths.

 

[John Thiel]

Science is the ultimate in evaluating existence.

 

[Thief]

God has always existed. And perhaps energy is God or comes from God.

What I meant by came from nothing is that things don't just make themselves happen. How did even the very first matter, become matter? Does matter make itself? Or do you believe energy creates matter?

Throw some Dark Matter into this discussion.

It's something science is sure to be real....but no proof!!!!!!!!

 

[idav]

I'm sure that we can all agree that, as yet, there is no proven explanation as to how matter evolved from quantum foam to solid substance.

My question is that if believer's understand that a god initiated this evolution of nothing into something, what initiated the the evolution of nothing into the form of a god?

If a god has been in existence from the beginning of time (if there is such a thing) then why couldn't solid matter have existed from that same point in time?

And if god was fabricated from nothing at some stage, then why can that rule not be applied to solid matter?

The rule should apply to god as well. Infinite regression is a problem for god as well as matter and energy. Thankfully they are one and the same so whatever created itself is still here.

 

[idav]

All you gotta do now is decide...Spirit first? or substance?

That question assumes too much. There is no such thing as spirit, only substance. Even god, who you could say is "spirit", is still some sort of substance. The question is nonsensical.

 

[Thief]

The rule should apply to god as well. Infinite regression is a problem for god as well as matter and energy. Thankfully they are one and the same so whatever created itself is still here.

I like it.

But now the next pair of questions...
Is IT self-aware?....and did IT also create you?

 

[idav]

I like it.

But now the next pair of questions...
Is IT self-aware?....and did IT also create you?

It's only self aware when it becomes conscious. I feel that matter and energy are always aware just not always aware that it's aware. For it to create me would have taken conscious thought and prediction that doesn't apply from the beginning. More of an emergent realization where we begin to have the ability to steer the direction of the universal wave function.

 

[Thief]

It's only self aware when it becomes conscious. I feel that matter and energy are always aware just not always aware that it's aware. For it to create me would have taken conscious thought and prediction that doesn't apply from the beginning. More of an emergent realization where we begin to have the ability to steer the direction of the universal wave function.

Well this creation...you and me....is too complex to be an accident.
So too, the rest of life on this planet.
Way too many details resulting in way too many life forms....
Way too much interaction between species to say...accident.

If any living form would be an accident...
You might expect that accident to play out it's chemistry, and then never repeat.
Such are accidents.

But this planet is covered in chemistry that has the WILL to live.
I don't see this as accident.

If anything, I see it as the evidence that all the non-believers say, doesn't exist.

 

[idav]

Well this creation...you and me....is too complex to be an accident.
So too, the rest of life on this planet.
Way too many details resulting in way too many life forms....
Way too much interaction between species to say...accident.

If any living form would be an accident...
You might expect that accident to play out it's chemistry, and then never repeat.
Such are accidents.

But this planet is covered in chemistry that has the WILL to live.
I don't see this as accident.

If anything, I see it as the evidence that all the non-believers say, doesn't exist.

Even more so a Designer would be too complex to just exist. You think the creation is complex so much more would be the designer. So the argument applies to god as well, God is too complex to be an accident.

 

[JustWondering]

God is not made of matter.

How do you KNOW this?

time came into existence with our physical universe... God does not live in our physical universe nor is he dependent on it as we are....so he is outside of space and time as we know it.

You can see outside the physical universe? How do you KNOW this?

Matter is dependent on energy...e=mc2....so it requires an input and therefore a first cause.

God is energy therefore he IS the first cause.

Did you witness the creation of the universe? Again, how do you KNOW this?

 

[PolyHedral]

Throw some Dark Matter into this discussion.

It's something science is sure to be real....but no proof!!!!!!!!

Actually, the problem is in the hypothesis, not the proof.

Gravity is wrong. Why? Maybe dark matter.

 

[Thief]

Actually, the problem is in the hypothesis, not the proof.

Gravity is wrong. Why? Maybe dark matter.

I like the 'maybe'.

I've been watching scientists present their ideas on so many variety of documentary....for decades.
Here of late, the implications of the chalk on the board as gone where no man will ever go...and live to tell of it.

There will be no proof.

As for something from nothing....form coming forth out of void....
God did it.

The one outstanding mystery?....how.
Not Whom....how?

Been some talk about particles popping in and out of existence.
How indeed to say anything is ....Firm.