Sorry Gay People, This Country Failed You Again

[Kathryn]

So, I talked to a 5 cops last night, all men. 3 individually and 2 as a pair. 4 short conversations....unanimously stated they all endorse gay women as police officers over straight women and none wanted to work with a gay man, period. My bet is that soldiers will mirror that sentiment exactly.

My entire family is military, either former or active - Dad, brother, my exhusband, and three of my four children. Army, Air Force, and Marines. I've talked with all of them over the years, and recently, about gays (both men and women) serving in the military, and honestly, they could not care less. It makes no difference to them in their work with other soldiers. In fact, my kids know that some of their co workers are gay and they of COURSE would not dream of reporting them, or discriminating against them, and would expect them to step up to the plate in battle as well.

 

[dust1n]

My entire family is military, either former or active - Dad, brother, my exhusband, and three of my four children. Army, Air Force, and Marines. I've talked with all of them over the years, and recently, about gays (both men and women) serving in the military, and honestly, they could not care less. It makes no difference to them in their work with other soldiers. In fact, my kids know that some of their co workers are gay and they of COURSE would not dream of reporting them, or discriminating against them, and would expect them to step up to the plate in battle as well.

Which is probably the only reasoned way to go about the situation considering the circumstances. I'm just trying really hard to imagine someone who is so disgusted by homosexuality, that he can't focus on the war zone. Sounds like an entirely inefficient solider to me.

 

[Kathryn]

I am in the process of trying to determine the ethical standard of Al Jazeera when it comes to journalism. Go to their website and type in the word "gay" in the search bar.

There will be pages and pages of returns on that search. So far I am several pages into the search and have yet to find an article that discusses the prejudice of Muslim countries when it comes to gays. However, there are pages and pages of articles about the mistreatment of gays by the US.

Oops, I take that back. I did find one article, about the treatment of gays in Iraq (actually it didn't discuss that other than to lump them in with other minorities). But the article made it clear in the very first sentence that GWB has failed Iraq and the implication is that this is the main reason for the violence toward minorities.

Now - I'm sure that the mistreatment of gays in Muslim countries is widespread enough to make the news. Apparently just not Al Jazeera's news.

I'm just sayin'.

And that's the only topic I've done much digging on, on the Al Jazeera website, but so far I'm unimpressed with their supposed "excellence in journalism."

LIBYA: LESBIAN TO REQUEST ASYLUM IN FRANCE - Lybia - ANSAMED.info

Allah

Gays are filth say fanatical muslim clerics « LGBTI Bangladesh

Homophobia on the rise in the Muslim world - Salon.com Mobile

Gays should be hanged, says Iranian minister - Times Online

All homosexuals should be stoned to death, says Muslim preacher of hate | Mail Online

Freedom of speech reigns no longer in Europe - English pravda.ru


Now I'm not saying that all the above sources, or even any of the above sources, are paragons of journalistic excellence, but there is definitely bias and violence toward gays in Muslim countries - certainly one or two instances at the hands of Muslims would make the news on Al Jazeera's website, if that news organization is indeed balanced, ethical, and objective about the reporting of real events, ideas, and issues.

 

[Sunstone]

I simply cannot believe the US Government would knowingly fail gay people, folks. Where's the precedent? When has our government ever done anything wrong? Have you all gone mad?

 

[Magic Man]

The hetro addiction is an addiction too, sure it is....it's just not disgustingy mingled with fecal matter

Right. So, your only real problem is with anal sex, not with homosexuality. You think a man and a woman having anal sex is just as disgusting as homosexuals, right? And you don't then think there's anything wrong with a guy giving another guy a blowjobor handjob, correct?

 

[Magic Man]

So, I talked to a 5 cops last night, all men. 3 individually and 2 as a pair. 4 short conversations....unanimously stated they all endorse gay women as police officers over straight women and none wanted to work with a gay man, period. My bet is that soldiers will mirror that sentiment exactly.

And? Was there a point to this? Yes, we get it. You talked to 5 bigotted police officers. Does this prove something other than the fact that those 5 police officers are bigotted?

 

[Smoke]

Now - I'm sure that the mistreatment of gays in Muslim countries is widespread enough to make the news. Apparently just not Al Jazeera's news.

I'm just sayin'.

Try this: find an instance of the persecution of LGBTs in a Muslim country that was reported in the American press, and see whether (and how) that story was reported on by Al Jazeera.

Or you could just point out the factual errors in the story linked to in the OP, since that's the only thing that would be relevant to this thread anyway.

 

[dust1n]

I am in the process of trying to determine the ethical standard of Al Jazeera when it comes to journalism. Go to their website and type in the word "gay" in the search bar.

Now I'm not saying that all the above sources, or even any of the above sources, are paragons of journalistic excellence, but there is definitely bias and violence toward gays in Muslim countries - certainly one or two instances at the hands of Muslims would make the news on Al Jazeera's website, if that news organization is indeed balanced, ethical, and objective about the reporting of real events, ideas, and issues.

You are right, Al Jazeera English is much more liberal-minded than Al Jazeera Arabic, which must cater to it's audience to some degree, doesn't question the orthodox.

Either way, I was concerned with this statement:

Does anyone else here see the irony in this OP? The article is from a Muslim news source. Gays are persecuted and even publically stoned in many Muslim countries.

Kinda the pot calling the kettle black, wouldn't you say?

Sorry, but I had to point that out.

Why is Al Jazeera calling the kettle black? Al Jazeera didn't publicly stone anyone, nor is there a single no stories that condemn homosexuality.

 

[Kathryn]

Try this: find an instance of the persecution of LGBTs in a Muslim country that was reported in the American press, and see whether (and how) that story was reported on by Al Jazeera.

Or you could just point out the factual errors in the story linked to in the OP, since that's the only thing that would be relevant to this thread anyway.

Al Jazeera reports stories about the persecution of gays in Western countries, but apparently does not report stories of the persecution of gays in Muslim countries, except in that article denouncing GWB in Iraq, as if he caused Iraqis to persecute gays. Now, I admit that after scrolling through page after page in my search on "gays" on Al Jazeera's website, and finding no other mention of any persecution of any gays in Muslim countries (except by Christians in Serbia), well, I finally got bored. So maybe there may be one or two stories (oh yes, the GWB and Christian serbs stories, for instance) but overall, their coverage of the persecution of gays BY MUSLIMS is slim to non existant.

I can't COMPARE stories if they aren't REPORTING the stories.

I looked up this recent story:

Gay Saudi Diplomat, Ali Ahmad Asseri, Seeks Asylum In U.S.
Huffington Post

Saudi diplomat seeks US asylum - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
Al Jazeera

Interesting differences, though the text of the story is the same in both accounts. The differences were in the headlines.

But as you pointed out, that's really a secondary issue. The main issue of course is that gays are, once again, losing out on DADT.

Let's take an even closer look at this issue...

Just to clarify the US position (which I think is a stupid one), "DADT" does NOT disallow gays to serve in the military. That's sort of a moot point though, because they are not allowed to serve OPENLY - so it's ridiculous.

Egypt, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Serbia, Sierra Leone, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, Iran, and a motley crew of other countries do not allow gays to openly serve in the military either.

Note the number of Muslim-dominated countries in that list.

Therefore, my point, and only point, in bringing up the irony of Al Jazeera's extensive coverage of the issue of gay rights in the US, is that gay rights are so trampled on in predominately Muslim countries.

That's why I said it was ironic and sort of a case of "the pot calling the kettle black."

This however, in no way justifies the ridiculosity of DADT.

But we digress.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, I talked to a 5 cops last night, all men. 3 individually and 2 as a pair. 4 short conversations....unanimously stated they all endorse gay women as police officers over straight women and none wanted to work with a gay man, period. My bet is that soldiers will mirror that sentiment exactly.

Don't you see the blatant chauvinism and double standards in that? They prefer lesbians over straight women because they are pigs, no questions about it, and not wanting to work with a gay man is just hypocritical if they would work with female homosexuals but not male homosexuals.
And no, the soldiers do not mirror that sentiment. Give our troops some more credit. And the military personnel I have known, both former and current, wouldn't think any different of a homosexual soldier than they do anyone else. And this comes from a retired Navy Master Sargent, a Marine marksman, Air Force mechanic, Army infantry, and a National Guard Sargent. According to a military wife at another forum, people in her husbands platoon that are openly homophobic get alot of crap from the rest of the platoon because they are homophobic.

 

[Yona]

why is it so important for gays to inform the world of their gayness.

It would seem to me that anyone could be a great soldier for their whole lives without their sexual preferance ever coming into play.

exactly.

 

[dust1n]

Why is it so important for gays to inform the world of their gayness.

it would seem to me that anyone could be a great soldier for their whole lives without their sexual preferance ever coming into play.

exactly.

[FONT=Arial,helvetica]Sex Runs Wild in U.S. Military[/FONT]
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Despite Pentagon restrictions, sex is rampant among the men and women in uniform serving in Iraq, a potentially explosive new report reveals.


With limited exceptions in other conflicts, there has never been a time in which American men and women have served, side by side and in such numbers, in units engaged in combat, according to the report in the Salt Lake Tribune.


And sexual conduct "has become the cost of doing business in the gender-integrated military,” Elaine Donnelly, president of The Center for Military Readiness, told NewsMax.


"I think it is the policy makers who should be held to account. I don’t blame individual men or women. The policy makers believe that men and women are interchangeable.”

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She called the assignment of women troops to units designated as "all male” a "national security issue.”
Male and female soldiers in Iraq were willing to speak to the Tribune about sex in the combat zone, but most asked for confidentiality.



It is only natural, they said, for the teens and 20-somethings who make up the majority of U.S. forces in Iraq to do what civilians of their age back home are doing.



"They can try to keep us apart as much as they want, but they miss the point," said one female soldier.



Sex, she said is "what people this age do."




Capt. Eryth Zecher, an officer with the 146th Transportation Company, said the Defense Department has not issued a blanket ban on sex in Iraq, although in most commands male and female soldiers are not allowed to be in the same room with the door closed or be "out of uniform" anyplace.


But commanders seem to acknowledge that sex happens in the forward operating bases: Base exchanges sell trashy lingerie, medics hand out condoms and, in some places, have a supply of pregnancy test kits available.


"We don't really have any other choice than to go to each other," said a male soldier in the 872nd Maintenance Company headquartered in Mosul.


"In past wars, they could go into town and there would be girls there or boys or whatever you want. Here, you can't really leave the base because you'll get killed."
Most male soldiers are not regularly having sex, despite some bragging to the contrary, the Tribune reports.


But they estimate that anywhere from a quarter to three-quarters of female soldiers are engaging in sex while on deployment.


Some female soldiers say that estimate is probably low.


"If you include all the girls who are having sex with girls, it’s much closer to every one of us,” said a female soldier in the 146th.


Even anonymously, female soldiers are reluctant to speak about sexual harassment.
"They won't demote you” if a woman complains "because that would be too obvious, but you can forget about being promoted, or even treated like a human being, if you make those kinds of waves," a female soldier in Mosul told the Tribune.


A female Marine officer stationed in Ramadi said: "You have two choices: You can keep your pants on and be miserable and be harassed or you can take your pants off and you'll still get harassed, but you'll be a little less miserable."


Military activist Donnelly told NewsMax: "The problem with sexual relations is that those people who are involved in sexual relationships will trust one another to the exclusion of everyone else. You end up with a lot of people with weapons, not an effective fighting force.”


There are also "pregnancy issues,” said Donnelly. "Sexual conduct occurs and that results in pregnancies and soldiers sent home.”


As for what should be done, Donnelly added: "Army troops must comply with the law. If the Pentagon wants to change the regulation regarding the assigning of women, they must notify Congress in advance. They are not doing that. They are assigning women to troops that had been designated as ‘all male.’


"This causes problems and it becomes a national security issue. When trust among troops is compromised, lives will be lost.”

Sex Runs Wild in U.S. Military

 

[Magic Man]

exactly.

So, you're saying you, too, don't understand that they don't have to announce their sexuality to anyone to be fired from the military? You're saying you don't understand that they could be hanging out in the barracks having a conversation where their sex life comes up, and if they say anything truthful, they could be discharged? You're saying you don't realize it's not about having to tell everyone about their sexuality, and that it's really just about giving them the ability to just be themselves, which sometimes includes a minor or major mention of something that shows their sexuality?

Should straight soldiers also not announce their sexuality by talking with each other about their sexual conquests or significant others? I mean, I really hate the fact that heterosexuals always have to announce their sexuality to everyone. Don't you?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

That is poposterous. Heterosexuals can flaunt their sexualities, except they don't see it as flaunting, because they think it's "normal".

 

[Revoltingest]

That is poposterous. Heterosexuals can flaunt their sexualities, except they don't see it as flaunting, because they think it's "normal".

I respect your right to flaunt abnormality.