Special Creation

[Ben Masada]

Special Creation

It is a misconception to say that the Jewish People are God's Chosen People. If we really ponder on the matter, the Jews do not claim such a title on themselves. It is usually claimed by others, especially Christians, and usually from a hostile point of view.

For a people to be chosen, they must be picked out from among a group of other peoples. That's definitely not what happened to the Jewish People.

According to Genesis 6:5, the Flood had become inevitable because Mankind had corrupted the earth. After the Flood, Elohim promised Noah that He would never allow another catastrophe of that size again to hit all Mankind. (Gen. 8:21) But what about if Mankind did corrupt the earth again?

That's when Elohim decided to effect a new and special creation and not to wait and choose a people from among a group of peoples. Israel was therefore in the designs of God many years before she was actually born with the purpose to guarantee God's promise to Noah.

Jeremiah, under prophetical inspiration, declared that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will cease to work properly, which would cause the eruption of catastrophes anywhere or everywhere to threaten the whole of Mankind. (Jer. 31:35-37)

Therefore, we should stop the myth that the Jewish People are God's Chosen People, and rather think of them as a Special Creation for a specific Divine purpose.

Ben

 

[Preacher_LaFleur]

I do beleive that the Jews were Gods chosen people, but since they rejected his decrees and his Messiah, he opened up salvation to the Gentiles. We know this because the book of Acts 9:15 makes it clear that a messenger was sent to the Gentiles with the message of redemption. Lets look at the scripture,

But the Lord said, “Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name’s sake.” ( NLT)

At this point in history it is clear, God had also chosen the rest of man kind to come into fellowship with him.

 

[Zardoz]

Ah Ben, always a pleasure to see your topics!

I was contemplating this very topic lately, but from a slightly different perspective, the nature of the Jewish Neshama. Our Rebbi taught us that we have three different souls; the animal soul which is a factor of our physical body, then the human soul that Adam received then the Jewish soul after that. So I see a relationship here between your special creation and this additional Jewish soul. Or am I off the mark for your point? I'm a bit fuzzy on this topic, both from just returning from a long trip and the fact that I should have probably asked a few more questions during this topic discussion with my Rebbi, lol.

Actually, according to tradition we Jews receive an additional soul every Shabbat and according to Kabbala there are five levels of soul. So the concept of multiple souls isn't all that odd in Judaism.

I do beleive that the Jews were Gods chosen people, but since they rejected his decrees...

Oh, really? Which decrees? Typical Replacement Theology lies.

At this point in history it is clear, God had also chosen the rest of man kind to come into fellowship with him.

The rest of mankind has always had a path to fellowship to G-d, all are under the covenant that G-d made with Noah. Most people choose to ignore this covenant, that's not G-d's choice. The only point in history that is clear is that the Temple with it's sacrifices made on behalf of the Nations were soon to be halted and a new path to G-d was urgently required for them.

 

[Sola'lor]

Therefore, we should stop the myth that the Jewish People are God's Chosen People, and rather think of them as a Special Creation for a specific Divine purpose.

Hmm. I always thought that was sort of the same thing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

According to Genesis 6:5, the Flood had become inevitable because Mankind had corrupted the earth. After the Flood, Elohim promised Noah that He would never allow another catastrophe of that size again to hit all Mankind. (Gen. 8:21) But what about if Mankind did corrupt the earth again?

That's when Elohim decided to effect a new and special creation and not to wait and choose a people from among a group of peoples. Israel was therefore in the designs of God many years before she was actually born with the purpose to guarantee God's promise to Noah.

And not before? Such myopic prescience!

By the way, your thoughtlessly anthropocentric rendering of Genesis 8:21 is more than a bit interesting, since it is not a vow against reprising His actions against "all Mankind" but, rather, ...

I will never curse the soil again on humankind's account,
since what the human heart forms is evit evil from its youth;
I will never strike down all living things, as I have done;
(never) again, all the days of the earth, shall

sowing and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
ever cease!​

 

[Ben Masada]

I do beleive that the Jews were Gods chosen people, but since they rejected his decrees and his Messiah, he opened up salvation to the Gentiles. We know this because the book of Acts 9:15 makes it clear that a messenger was sent to the Gentiles with the message of redemption. Lets look at the scripture,

But the Lord said, “Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name’s sake.” ( NLT)

At this point in history it is clear, God had also chosen the rest of man kind to come into fellowship with him.

Yes, let's look at the Scriptures. Do you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah? I am sure you do. Guess what? Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that you won't have to assume that he was Jesus. Therefore, we did not reject our Messiah, because we don't have one. We are the one; at least as the Prophet Isaiah is concern.

You say that Paul was chosen to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Now, can you show me in your NT when he finally decided to go to the Gentiles? All his life since Damascus and until Rome, he never left the Jews in peace. 98 % of his missionary work was in the synagogues of the Jews as if Gentiles were to be found in the synagogues of the Jews. 2% of work with Gentiles can hardly classify one as an apostle of the Gentiles.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ah Ben, always a pleasure to see your topics!

I was contemplating this very topic lately, but from a slightly different perspective, the nature of the Jewish Neshama. Our Rebbi taught us that we have three different souls; the animal soul which is a factor of our physical body, then the human soul that Adam received then the Jewish soul after that. So I see a relationship here between your special creation and this additional Jewish soul. Or am I off the mark for your point? I'm a bit fuzzy on this topic, both from just returning from a long trip and the fact that I should have probably asked a few more questions during this topic discussion with my Rebbi, lol.

Actually, according to tradition we Jews receive an additional soul every Shabbat and according to Kabbala there are five levels of soul. So the concept of multiple souls isn't all that odd in Judaism.
.

Shalom Zardoz, considering that terminology of souls, which perhaps we could name them natures, how in your opinion would the convert to Judaism acquire
the Jewish nature? Or soul if you like.

 

[Ben Masada]

And not before? Such myopic prescience!

By the way, your thoughtlessly anthropocentric rendering of Genesis 8:21 is more than a bit interesting, since it is not a vow against reprising His actions against "all Mankind" but, rather, ...

I will never curse the soil again on humankind's account,
since what the human heart forms is evit evil from its youth;
I will never strike down all living things, as I have done;
(never) again, all the days of the earth, shall

sowing and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
ever cease!
​

Hay Jay, that's us human talk. We know at least you and me, that Elohim is not subject to time and space. "Before" here is in the sphere of our considerations. The time of Elohim is an eternal present. When I say "before many years" I am, in our account, as humans trying to measure the years from Noah to the birth of Jacob. But in God there is not before or after but only present. Therefore, there is no myopic prescience in God but in our method to deal with reality.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Babble less.

 

[DadBurnett]

The problem I have with this thread is that no one has clearly defined or clarified what is meant by "chosen." I believe that they are indeed chosen, but to what purpose? Chosen because God loved them more, chosen because they were somehow superior ... or, simply chosen to perhaps take part in a divine experiment, test subjects to see if human beings could actually obey God, live under and up to the law. The testing was modified over time and included living under prophets, under kings, under judges ... chosen, not because they were special, but chosen to fulfill God's purposes which we have yet to understand.

 

[Zardoz]

The problem I have with this thread is that no one has clearly defined or clarified what is meant by "chosen." I believe that they are indeed chosen, but to what purpose? ...

None of the above. Not loved more or superior. Chosen to be Priests. Priestly duties are to promote and champion better relations between Man and G-d, to heal the breach. To take responsibility for Man. Notice, not guilt or blame, but responsibility.

 

[Zardoz]

Shalom Zardoz, considering that terminology of souls, which perhaps we could name them natures, how in your opinion would the convert to Judaism acquire
the Jewish nature? Or soul if you like.

Ah, excellent topic. This is the only topic that I (respectfully) disagreed with my Rebbi (ZTz"L) on. His position was that all true converts are in fact reincarnated Jews who through actions and decisions in a past life were 'cut off' from the Jewish people. Or perhaps they were a Jew who due to becoming an orphan or other tragedy never joined the community in the first place. So these souls return. The term is 'Gilgul Neshama' (a circle denoting return) and is a common idea in at least Sephardic thought. I don't know if it's as well known with Ashkenazim.

I objected to this on several points. First, it creates in a proselyte a desire to prove even a distant past Jewish relative in the family tree, and consternation when one can't be found. Secondly, and more importantly, it creates an impression of a 'taint' to the conversion, a source of vague shame. It says to the proselyte; 'hey, you did something so bad in a past life, that you're back to fix it'. Gerim have enough trouble integrating into Jewish culture, this sense of shame is totally unacceptable and unsupported. I don't know if you've ever read RaMCHaL's 'Derech HaShem' (The Way of G-d) but I highly recommend it. In it he clearly states that any gentile may sever his 'branch' from whatever tree of humanity he currently is on and graft himself onto Am Yisrael. In other words, conversion based solely on belief is possible, not just because someone is a Gilgul Neshama. My Rebbi even held a class on Derech HaShem so he knew full well that truth, but it was not as the community believed, and he wouldn't buck tradition. It's a sad fact that some Sephardic communities won't accept Gerim, to our shame. They send them to Ashenazic Rabbis. What a pity, some of the holiest Jews I've ever met are Gerim.

So, if a Ger's Neshama isn't already a Jewish soul via Gilgul Neshama, then how do they get one? The simple answer is G-d gives them one, during their conversion. Not too far fetched if one considers the tradition that we all get an extra Shabbat soul, eh? I don't know how many of you have been witness in a conversion, of a close associate or Friend, but I can tell you they change. I could say more but some would not believe me, so I will keep that for a future topic.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ah, excellent topic. This is the only topic that I (respectfully) disagreed with my Rebbi (ZTz"L) on. His position was that all true converts are in fact reincarnated Jews who through actions and decisions in a past life were 'cut off' from the Jewish people. Or perhaps they were a Jew who due to becoming an orphan or other tragedy never joined the community in the first place. So these souls return. The term is 'Gilgul Neshama' (a circle denoting return) and is a common idea in at least Sephardic thought. I don't know if it's as well known with Ashkenazim.

I objected to this on several points. First, it creates in a proselyte a desire to prove even a distant past Jewish relative in the family tree, and consternation when one can't be found. Secondly, and more importantly, it creates an impression of a 'taint' to the conversion, a source of vague shame. It says to the proselyte; 'hey, you did something so bad in a past life, that you're back to fix it'. Gerim have enough trouble integrating into Jewish culture, this sense of shame is totally unacceptable and unsupported. I don't know if you've ever read RaMCHaL's 'Derech HaShem' (The Way of G-d) but I highly recommend it. In it he clearly states that any gentile may sever his 'branch' from whatever tree of humanity he currently is on and graft himself onto Am Yisrael. In other words, conversion based solely on belief is possible, not just because someone is a Gilgul Neshama. My Rebbi even held a class on Derech HaShem so he knew full well that truth, but it was not as the community believed, and he wouldn't buck tradition. It's a sad fact that some Sephardic communities won't accept Gerim, to our shame. They send them to Ashenazic Rabbis. What a pity, some of the holiest Jews I've ever met are Gerim.

So, if a Ger's Neshama isn't already a Jewish soul via Gilgul Neshama, then how do they get one? The simple answer is G-d gives them one, during their conversion. Not too far fetched if one considers the tradition that we all get an extra Shabbat soul, eh? I don't know how many of you have been witness in a conversion, of a close associate or Friend, but I can tell you they change. I could say more but some would not believe me, so I will keep that for a future topic.

Zardoz, I am sure you are aware of the saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." I hope this stuff above about gilgul neshamote, extra Shabbat soul, etc is all metaphorical because I just can't agree with. I find the Scriptures too clear with the message of a no-return to life. But if it's not literal, I do find the idea interesting.

 

[Ben Masada]

The problem I have with this thread is that no one has clearly defined or clarified what is meant by "chosen." I believe that they are indeed chosen, but to what purpose? Chosen because God loved them more, chosen because they were somehow superior ... or, simply chosen to perhaps take part in a divine experiment, test subjects to see if human beings could actually obey God, live under and up to the law. The testing was modified over time and included living under prophets, under kings, under judges ... chosen, not because they were special, but chosen to fulfill God's purposes which we have yet to understand.

I define it as special creation. Why? Because for something to be chosen, it must be from among other things. Since in my opinion, the first indication for the rise of Israel was in the promise of God to Noah, soon after the Flood, when there were no peoples for Israel to be chosen from, I interpret the term "choosing" as a special creation.

Yes, Israel was created for a special purpose: To be the intermediator of the Noahite Covenant with all Mankind, as a pledge to guarantee God's promise that He never again would alow another catastrophe of that size to hit Mankind.

How do I understand it thus if Genesis 8:21 is not so specific? Because Jeremiah relates the permanence of Israel as a People before the Lord as the guarantee that the natural laws maintain the status quo and keep the world free of catastrophes. (Jer. 31:35-37)

 

[Zardoz]

Zardoz, I am sure you are aware of the saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." I hope this stuff above about gilgul neshamote, extra Shabbat soul, etc is all metaphorical because I just can't agree with. I find the Scriptures too clear with the message of a no-return to life. But if it's not literal, I do find the idea interesting.

Of course. I only wanted to show the way that the issue of a ger's soul is a problem, IMHO. As I point out, the current viewpoint makes for feelings of shame, the last thing a ger needs. While I won't rule out the possibility of a gilgul neshama, I think it would be exceedingly rare.

On the whole, the idea of resurrection or reincarnation can be harmful if too much emphasis is placed on it. One must value this life to it's fullest, as if there was no return. People who deny living this life to it's fullest because they will have another life later are throwing away G-d's gift of life. Same goes with greater issues of social justice and environment, don't count on G-d to bail us out. Act as if it's all up to us, even while having faith in G-d's power.

Same goes with resurrection, it's one of RAMBAM's 13 principles, but it may be a long, long time until this occurs. Since I believe in a cyclical Big Bang, it may not even occur in this universe, but in the next one. So, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Ben Masada]

Of course. I only wanted to show the way that the issue of a ger's soul is a problem, IMHO. As I point out, the current viewpoint makes for feelings of shame, the last thing a ger needs. While I won't rule out the possibility of a gilgul neshama, I think it would be exceedingly rare.

On the whole, the idea of resurrection or reincarnation can be harmful if too much emphasis is placed on it. One must value this life to it's fullest, as if there was no return. People who deny living this life to it's fullest because they will have another life later are throwing away G-d's gift of life. Same goes with greater issues of social justice and environment, don't count on G-d to bail us out. Act as if it's all up to us, even while having faith in G-d's power.

Same goes with resurrection, it's one of RAMBAM's 13 principles, but it may be a long, long time until this occurs. Since I believe in a cyclical Big Bang, it may not even occur in this universe, but in the next one. So, I'm not holding my breath.

Very cautious you. Indeed, you are a very cautious man. My perspective of life is the same as you describe above. Regarding the Rambam's 13 principles of faith, if you read it carefully, he gives no one to think that he is referring to physical resurrection. Since those principles of faith was a message to Israel, he is for sure speaking about resurrection in the context of Ezekiel 37:12. Resurrection from the graves of exile among the nations and return to the Land of Israel.

 

[Zardoz]

Very cautious you. Indeed, you are a very cautious man. My perspective of life is the same as you describe above. Regarding the Rambam's 13 principles of faith, if you read it carefully, he gives no one to think that he is referring to physical resurrection. Since those principles of faith was a message to Israel, he is for sure speaking about resurrection in the context of Ezekiel 37:12. Resurrection from the graves of exile among the nations and return to the Land of Israel.

Old age makes you cautious. Or is it the cautious reach old age?

Interesting take on Resurrection. As you know, I see such prophecies as possibly having more than one level of meaning, and all these levels true. So, while I believe in the physical resurrection (whenever it pleases G-d to do so) I can agree with the context of the resurrection to include the Nation of Israel.

However I don't quite agree on the 'graves of exile among the nations' as we never were really dead, 'Am Yisrael Chai'. I perceive all relationships between Israel and the other Nations from the perspective of priesthood, and the fulfillment of these duties. Note that such relationships are not for our benefit but theirs. Therefore I take to heart the well known traditional understanding of this exile, Galut Edom, to be to spread Jews throughout the lands to bring G-G-d's laws to all Nations. Exile is not a punishment, truly G-d could have kept us in the land and punished us there if he wished to. No, we were dispersed like seeds in the wind for the benefit of all Nations as they would soon lose the sacrifices made on their behalf in the Temple, when that institution would be destroyed. Not always are we valued among the Nations, quite the opposite in most cases. That is why Galut Edom is also the age of Messiah ben Yosef, with all the prophecies of Isaiah 53 in mind (while still simultaneously applying to Yeshua, the figurehead of the age).

There can be no doubt that we Jews can serve the Nations best within Eretz Yisrael, in peace, with our efforts to serve G-d on their behalf. However, this can only be fully realized when we Jews wish, in our heart of hearts, desire to serve them as the very best priests we can be, AND the Nations in their heart of hearts desire to allow us to be their priests in peace, with no objections. We all know that this isn't the case at this time. Which is why we await the coming of the Davidic messiah, to be a catalyst of change and a focal point for the metamorphosis of the Age/People of the Messiah ben Yosef into Messiah ben David. Then all the Jews can be ingathered to the Land in peace, without fear. As you can see, this will be a cooperative process desired by both the Jews and the Nations that we are exiled among. As the prophecies concerning such imply. Then we will be fully a Nation at peace in our Land, with the freedom to do all we can and must to serve both G-d and the Nations.

 

[Ben Masada]

Old age makes you cautious. Or is it the cautious reach old age?

I think cautious reaches old age.

Interesting take on Resurrection. As you know, I see such prophecies as possibly having more than one level of meaning, and all these levels true. So, while I believe in the physical resurrection (whenever it pleases G-d to do so) I can agree with the context of the resurrection to include the Nation of Israel.

Don't you think that physical resurrection only serves to create contradiction for the Tanach? To find myself struggling to answer questions about discrepancies in the Tanach, I'd rather discard physical resurrection. Just as a sample of what I am saying, the Tanach is only against physical resurrection as we have in Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. Well, these are more than a sample. There are many more if you open Ecclesiastes.

However I don't quite agree on the 'graves of exile among the nations' as we never were really dead, 'Am Yisrael Chai'.


That's metaphorical, as is death as a symbol of exile. As you read Isaiah 53:8,9, when Israel was uprooted by Assyria in an exchanged of pupulation, the Prophet saw it as Israel being cut off from the Land of the Living and graves being assigned them among the Gentiles. Being resurrection the final phase of the exile when God would open their graves and have them rise from them and bring them back to the Land of Israel. (Ezek. 37:12)

I perceive all relationships between Israel and the other Nations from the perspective of priesthood, and the fulfillment of these duties. Note that such relationships are not for our benefit but theirs.


This has nothing to do with the need for physical resurrection. That's a Jewish role performed by the People, whick renews in every generation.


Therefore I take to heart the well known traditional understanding of this exile, Galut Edom, to be to spread Jews throughout the lands to bring G-G-d's laws to all Nations. Exile is not a punishment, truly G-d could have kept us in the land and punished us there if he wished to. No, we were dispersed like seeds in the wind for the benefit of all Nations as they would soon lose the sacrifices made on their behalf in the Temple, when that institution would be destroyed.


There are two purposes for Jewish exiles. One of them is indeed what you claim avove: To bring God's laws to the nations, as we have in Ezekiel 20:41. A way for the Lord to manifest His holiness in the sight of the nations. But the other purpose is indeed for punishment, as we have in Ezekiel 22:15. "I will disperse you among the nations and scatter you over foreign lands, so taht I may purge your uncleanness."


Not always are we valued among the Nations, quite the opposite in most cases. That is why Galut Edom is also the age of Messiah ben Yosef, with all the prophecies of Isaiah 53 in mind (while still simultaneously applying to Yeshua, the figurehead of the age).

Sorry Zardoz, but any attempt to apply the prophecy of Isaiah 53 to Yeshua is an adulteration of the text, because one has to assume, as if Yeshua was the only Jew to have been crucified by the Romans, when, according to Josephus, the Romans crucified throusands of them in the same manner, no more or less difference. Yeshua's is spoken about because the others didn't have a Paul to make a Christ out of them. Therefore, by thinking of the People instead of the individual, I am also including Yeshua in the collective concept of Isaiah for the Messiah.

There can be no doubt that we Jews can serve the Nations best within Eretz Yisrael, in peace, with our efforts to serve G-d on their behalf. However, this can only be fully realized when we Jews wish, in our heart of hearts, desire to serve them as the very best priests we can be, AND the Nations in their heart of hearts desire to allow us to be their priests in peace, with no objections.

Today perhaps, your first statement above could be true because of the the Internet age, as we are doing right now, myself from Israel, and you in the Diaspora. But before such an advance in technology, exile was the method.

We all know that this isn't the case at this time. Which is why we await the coming of the Davidic messiah, to be a catalyst of change and a focal point for the metamorphosis of the Age/People of the Messiah ben Yosef into Messiah ben David.

I don't know if you have read my thread about Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David. According to my understanding, MbJ is gone. He has fulfilled his function, which was the one of Suffering Servant to redeem Judah. We are the ones who have remained forever according to I Kings 11:36, as the Triumphant Servant in the position of Priests to the nations. That's Messiah ben David, whose remnant has returned to the Land of the Living.

Then all the Jews can be ingathered to the Land in peace, without fear. As you can see, this will be a cooperative process desired by both the Jews and the Nations that we are exiled among. As the prophecies concerning such imply. Then we will be fully a Nation at peace in our Land, with the freedom to do all we can and must to serve both G-d and the Nations.

It will still take a lot more than just wish thinking for Israel to get into the corner of the building as that stone, which the empire-builders thought unworthy of a place in their worldly plans. And it won't be easy, especially with the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which keeps the dream of Christianity alive to claim that place at the corner for themselves.

 

[Zardoz]

Don't you think that physical resurrection only serves to create contradiction for the Tanach? To find myself struggling to answer questions about discrepancies in the Tanach, I'd rather discard physical resurrection. Just as a sample of what I am saying, the Tanach is only against physical resurrection as we have in Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. Well, these are more than a sample. There are many more if you open Ecclesiastes.

I will have to read and consider these passages and get back to you later on them, but I see a new topic in the making, 'Literal Vs. Metaphorical Resurrection', eh? It's going a bit off-topic on this thread.

There are two purposes for Jewish exiles. One of them is indeed what you claim avove: To bring God's laws to the nations, as we have in Ezekiel 20:41. A way for the Lord to manifest His holiness in the sight of the nations. But the other purpose is indeed for punishment, as we have in Ezekiel 22:15. "I will disperse you among the nations and scatter you over foreign lands, so taht I may purge your uncleanness."

You're right, exile is indeed punishment. My fault I was not clear, what I meant to say is obviously the current exile has gone far beyond punishment IMHO surely we didn't deserve 2000+ years of punishment the exile in Egypt was 400 years and this far more, eh? I think our punishment is not the reason we are still here, but rather our being a light to the gentiles. They need us still, so here we are still.

Sorry Zardoz, but any attempt to apply the prophecy of Isaiah 53 to Yeshua is an adulteration of the text, because one has to assume, as if Yeshua was the only Jew to have been crucified by the Romans, when, according to Josephus, the Romans crucified throusands of them in the same manner, no more or less difference. Yeshua's is spoken about because the others didn't have a Paul to make a Christ out of them. Therefore, by thinking of the People instead of the individual, I am also including Yeshua in the collective concept of Isaiah for the Messiah.

What can I say? I agree with this 100% but yet... I also see no dilemma in applying these prophecies to both Yeshua and the Jewish people simultaneously. Both Yeshua and Am Yisrael are fully Messiah ben Yosef. Yeshua died, as an individual must do, but the Jewish people live on in the role. I know you don't see things this way, but we just must agree to disagree on this.

I don't know if you have read my thread about Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David. According to my understanding, MbJ is gone. He has fulfilled his function, which was the one of Suffering Servant to redeem Judah. We are the ones who have remained forever according to I Kings 11:36, as the Triumphant Servant in the position of Priests to the nations. That's Messiah ben David, whose remnant has returned to the Land of the Living.

No, I don't think I've seen this thread, please link.

It will still take a lot more than just wish thinking for Israel to get into the corner of the building as that stone, which the empire-builders thought unworthy of a place in their worldly plans. And it won't be easy, especially with the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which keeps the dream of Christianity alive to claim that place at the corner for themselves.

It will take a leader. May he come soon. Shalom!

 

[Ben Masada]

I will have to read and consider these passages and get back to you later on them, but I see a new topic in the making, 'Literal Vs. Metaphorical Resurrection', eh? It's going a bit off-topic on this thread.

It does sound hot.

You're right, exile is indeed punishment. My fault I was not clear, what I meant to say is obviously the current exile has gone far beyond punishment IMHO surely we didn't deserve 2000+ years of punishment the exile in Egypt was 400 years and this far more, eh? I think our punishment is not the reason we are still here, but rather our being a light to the gentiles. They need us still, so here we are still.

Do you know something Zardoz? Don't ask me how because I am still not sure, but IMHO, this exile ended in 1914. But we were too comfortable to listen to Elijah's invitation at Passover of that year, and subsequently till 1945 to rise from our graves and return to the Land of Israel. It had to take a Holocaust for us to wake up. It was soon after the First World War that Herzl heralded around as a Messianic leader trying to wake the Messiah up to return and died as another unheard voice in the desert. We had to lose six million in order to reduce ourselves into a very small remnant to realize that the exile had ended.


What can I say? I agree with this 100% but yet... I also see no dilemma in applying these prophecies to both Yeshua and the Jewish people simultaneously. Both Yeshua and Am Yisrael are fully Messiah ben Yosef. Yeshua died, as an individual must do, but the Jewish people live on in the role. I know you don't see things this way, but we just must agree to disagree on this.

I see Yeshua as part of Messiah ben David. Only that his death had no consequence, because it didn't affect the balance of the Jewish population. He died and life went on until the real shock hit with the destruction of the Temple and killing of too many if we add those who were killed in 143/4 in the Bar Kochba revolt.


No, I don't think I've seen this thread, please link.


It is under the title "The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53."

It will take a leader. May he come soon. Shalom!

And it will take this leader to rebuild our Temple. I think it will get a little worse
before it starts getting really good. How I wish I could witness the offering of the first sacrifice! Only God knows how! I would surely die the happiest of men.