Special Creation

[Dunemeister]

The theological concept we're dealing with here is "election." Gen 1 - 11 sets up the problem of pervasive and degenerative sin. Genesis 12, where we find the calling of Abraham, begins the serious business of solving the problem. God called Abraham to be a blessing to all nations. Israel is an outworking of that promise. So yes, Israel is "God's chosen" (a status demonstrated by the Exodus) for Abraham's sake and is called to be a blessing to the world. They are a kingdom of priests. Israel's long and storied career is a chronicle of how they have struggled with their high vocation.

I'll leave Jesus out of it for now, although he intimately fits in. I'd invite others to correct me if my previous paragraph is mistaken on anything serious. I should also point out that "new creation" is not a bad metaphor for what is going on in Israel's election.

 

[ProphecyKid]

Israel was God's chosen people. Someone mentioned that they wee chosen as test subjects to see if a people could live under God's law and principles but that's not right. God needed a people to bring all peoples to him. Israel however, lived in constant rebellion to God and could not be a light to the rest of the world because they followed them. When the nation of Israel finally rejected Christ as the messiah they could no longer be his chosen people. Now God's chosen people do not have a physical identifier but they have a spiritual identifier. If any man be in Christ he is Abraham's seed, meaning that he is chosen. He is a spiritual child of Abraham and not a physical child of Abraham. Whoever consider's themselves servants of God now have to responsibility to bring the world to Christ.

 

[Dunemeister]

Israel was God's chosen people. Someone mentioned that they wee chosen as test subjects to see if a people could live under God's law and principles but that's not right. God needed a people to bring all peoples to him. Israel however, lived in constant rebellion to God and could not be a light to the rest of the world because they followed them. When the nation of Israel finally rejected Christ as the messiah they could no longer be his chosen people. Now God's chosen people do not have a physical identifier but they have a spiritual identifier. If any man be in Christ he is Abraham's seed, meaning that he is chosen. He is a spiritual child of Abraham and not a physical child of Abraham. Whoever consider's themselves servants of God now have to responsibility to bring the world to Christ.

Nonsense. Romans 9 - 11 refutes this quite nicely.

 

[ProphecyKid]

Nonsense. Romans 9 - 11 refutes this quite nicely.

No it does not. It is spiritual israel that is being reference. God is not going to save all people of a particular bloodline regardless of what they do. That will not be justice. That will not be fair to me nor to you if you are not jewish. God will save all in the house of Israel of Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is no longer Jew or Greek. We are all one in Christ. We are all Abraham's seed. We cannot examine every text in the chapter you made reference to now but let me just use a few scriptures.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

These opening texts to the entire discussion in chapter 9, 10 and 11 makes it clear that not everyone who is a physical Israelite is a child of promise and a Child of Abraham. Consider verse 6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" Look at those verses in another version.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites: who have the place of sons, and the glory, and the agreements with God, and the giving of the law, and the worship, and the hope offered by God:
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom came Christ in the flesh, who is over all, God, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as if the word of God was without effect. For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 And they are not all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, In Isaac will your seed be named.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh, but the children of God's undertaking, who are named as the seed.

At the very beginning, exactly who Israel is is being discussed. Not every physical Israelite is apart of Israel. Paul is showing that apart from being a physical Israelite you can be a spiritual Israelite. God is not out to save people because of their race but because of their acceptance of him.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Within those chapter's Paul again reiterates that there is no difference between the physical jew and greek.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Can we say that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord is included in Abraham's seed. If any man be in Christ he is Abraham's seed. There should be no shock that in the next chapter we see that all Israel shall be saved.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Lets go back to the verses above and compare.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

It is clear. It was established exactly who Israel is in this passage. The Israel that God will save are not the physical israelites but he spiritual one's. Not the members of the physical seed of Abraham but the members of the spiritual seed of Abraham. No genetically similar people but spirtually similar people.

 

[Ben Masada]

Israel was God's chosen people. Someone mentioned that they wee chosen as test subjects to see if a people could live under God's law and principles but that's not right. God needed a people to bring all peoples to him. Israel however, lived in constant rebellion to God and could not be a light to the rest of the world because they followed them. When the nation of Israel finally rejected Christ as the messiah they could no longer be his chosen people. Now God's chosen people do not have a physical identifier but they have a spiritual identifier. If any man be in Christ he is Abraham's seed, meaning that he is chosen. He is a spiritual child of Abraham and not a physical child of Abraham. Whoever consider's themselves servants of God now have to responsibility to bring the world to Christ.

You are talking about Replacement Theology. The Messiah cannot be an individual, but the People, according to Prophet Isaiah. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Makes no sense. The Messiah does not die. He must live to keep life in the world. That's the role of the People. (Jer. 31:35-37)

 

[Dunemeister]

You are talking about Replacement Theology. The Messiah cannot be an individual, but the People, according to Prophet Isaiah. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Makes no sense. The Messiah does not die. He must live to keep life in the world. That's the role of the People. (Jer. 31:35-37)

Well, that's one option. Christians are not the only group who have seen the messiah as a single person. It's hardly a controversial opinion; it was the majority opinion in the Second Temple period.

 

[Dunemeister]

No it does not. It is spiritual israel that is being reference. God is not going to save all people of a particular bloodline regardless of what they do. That will not be justice. That will not be fair to me nor to you if you are not jewish. God will save all in the house of Israel of Abraham's seed.

Who said it's regardless of what they do? Not me.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is no longer Jew or Greek. We are all one in Christ. We are all Abraham's seed. We cannot examine every text in the chapter you made reference to now but let me just use a few scriptures.

Galatians is trying to explain how it is that gentiles can be part of the people of God. We gentiles, wild olive shoots, have been grafted into the natural tree, Israel. This organic image dominates Rom 9 - 11. The point is not to say national Israel is not Israel but to say that Gentiles, who had never been Israel, now are Israel by faith. Again, the passages you cite do not underwrite replacement theology, which is a heresy rejected by the church very, very early on.

 

[Ben Masada]

Well, that's one option. Christians are not the only group who have seen the messiah as a single person. It's hardly a controversial opinion; it was the majority opinion in the Second Temple period.

No one can open the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle to prove the Messiah as a single person. Therefore, whenever you refer to him as such, say that's according to the NT. All references in the Tanach about the Messiah are collective.

 

[Zardoz]

You are talking about Replacement Theology. The Messiah cannot be an individual, but the People, according to Prophet Isaiah. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Makes no sense. The Messiah does not die. He must live to keep life in the world. That's the role of the People. (Jer. 31:35-37)

Well, that's one option. Christians are not the only group who have seen the messiah as a single person. It's hardly a controversial opinion; it was the majority opinion in the Second Temple period.

Allow me to try to explain this from a slightly different perspective. You both make important points, but there is a viewpoint that incorporates both views. The concept of the Jewish People as the Messiah is absolutely true, whichever Messiah you consider. The Messiah is Israel, and no other people, G-d made an eternal covenant with us, and even if at certain times G-d chastises us, let no one think that this is rejection, for G-d made it clear he can't undo this covenant. The state of the Jewish People decides which Messiah we will be. However, the People do not spontaneously adopt these roles, there is a set of circumstances which precipitates one individual to usher in these ages. This individual lives his life, makes an impact, and then leaves the world. But, his role does not end with him, the People carry on the new role as a living legacy. The Messianic Age is born, with the individual Messiah, but it's the People who live this role throughout the age until a new age comes to change the role, by a new figurehead.

An individual Messiah, without the Jewish People to follow in his footsteps, is pointless.

A Messianic Jewish People, without a leader... figurehead... role model... will be aimless and random.

The individual Messiah leads the Jewish People into the Age of that Messiah, where that destiny runs it's course.

Man... People... Age.

 

[S-word]

Special Creation

It is a misconception to say that the Jewish People are God's Chosen People.

The only misconception here, is your misconception of that which is contained in God's Holy Word. You wouldn’t have a clue would you Ben?

Ist Chronicles 16: 11-13; “Remember the wonders he has done, his miracles, and the judgments he pronounced, O descendants of Israel his servant, O sons of Jacob his chosen ones.

Psalms 105: 6; O descendants of Abraham his servant, O sons of Jacob his chosen ones.

Psalms 105: 43; “He brought out his people with rejoicing, his chosen ones with shouts of joy; he gave to them the lands of the nations etc.

Psalms 106: 4-5; “Remember me, O Lord, when you show favour to your people, come to my aid when you save them, that I may enjoy the prosperity of your chosen ones etc.”

Isaiah 43: 20; “I provide water in the desert and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen, the people I formed for myself, etc.

Want more Ben, or will this suffice? You really should study God’s Word before entering into Religious debates within this forum.

 

[Ben Masada]

Allow me to try to explain this from a slightly different perspective. You both make important points, but there is a viewpoint that incorporates both views. The concept of the Jewish People as the Messiah is absolutely true, whichever Messiah you consider. The Messiah is Israel, and no other people, G-d made an eternal covenant with us, and even if at certain times G-d chastises us, let no one think that this is rejection, for G-d made it clear he can't undo this covenant. The state of the Jewish People decides which Messiah we will be. However, the People do not spontaneously adopt these roles, there is a set of circumstances which precipitates one individual to usher in these ages. This individual lives his life, makes an impact, and then leaves the world. But, his role does not end with him, the People carry on the new role as a living legacy. The Messianic Age is born, with the individual Messiah, but it's the People who live this role throughout the age until a new age comes to change the role, by a new figurehead.

An individual Messiah, without the Jewish People to follow in his footsteps, is pointless.

A Messianic Jewish People, without a leader... figurehead... role model... will be aimless and random.

The individual Messiah leads the Jewish People into the Age of that Messiah, where that destiny runs it's course.

Man... People... Age.

You do make a good point. So much so that I would compromise my views about the collective Messiah only as far as to consider the figurehead as a Messianic leader, but never the Messiah himself. The Messianic leader is replaceable. The Messiah per se is not. So, Moses was a Messianic leader with the mission to bring the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was a Messianic leader with the mission to proclaim the return of the Messiah to the Land of Israel and to finance the rebuilding of the Temple. Herzl was a Messianic leader with the mission to inspire the Messiah with love for Zion. And every figurehead of the People is a Messianic leader because of the fact that he belongs within the Messiah.

 

[Ben Masada]

Special Creation

It is a misconception to say that the Jewish People are God's Chosen People.

The only misconception here, is your misconception of that which is contained in God's Holy Word. You wouldn’t have a clue would you Ben?

Ist Chronicles 16: 11-13; “Remember the wonders he has done, his miracles, and the judgments he pronounced, O descendants of Israel his servant, O sons of Jacob his chosen ones.

Psalms 105: 6; O descendants of Abraham his servant, O sons of Jacob his chosen ones.

Psalms 105: 43; “He brought out his people with rejoicing, his chosen ones with shouts of joy; he gave to them the lands of the nations etc.

Psalms 106: 4-5; “Remember me, O Lord, when you show favour to your people, come to my aid when you save them, that I may enjoy the prosperity of your chosen ones etc.”

Isaiah 43: 20; “I provide water in the desert and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen, the people I formed for myself, etc.

Want more Ben, or will this suffice? You really should study God’s Word before entering into Religious debates within this forum.

Hey S-word, since you acknowledge all of the above powerful quotations in the Scriptures about Israel as the chosen People of God, how do you explain that God is not respecter of peoples? I am indeed interested in your opinion.

 

[Dunemeister]

No one can open the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle to prove the Messiah as a single person. Therefore, whenever you refer to him as such, say that's according to the NT. All references in the Tanach about the Messiah are collective.

Not so. Many rabbis and other Jewish groups of the first century (not to mention many nowadays) say the messiah is a single person. In fact, despite my contact with several deeply religious Jews over the decades, and having spoken with them about such issues, you are the first I've heard claim a collective view of the messiah.

Don't mistake your strong conviction for evidence that your interpretation being the only option available.

 

[Dunemeister]

You do make a good point. So much so that I would compromise my views about the collective Messiah only as far as to consider the figurehead as a Messianic leader, but never the Messiah himself. The Messianic leader is replaceable. The Messiah per se is not. So, Moses was a Messianic leader with the mission to bring the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was a Messianic leader with the mission to proclaim the return of the Messiah to the Land of Israel and to finance the rebuilding of the Temple. Herzl was a Messianic leader with the mission to inspire the Messiah with love for Zion. And every figurehead of the People is a Messianic leader because of the fact that he belongs within the Messiah.

All this is inconsistent with the way the word has been used. Lots of people have been anointed "messiah" over the years, and in no case has this distinction between "messiah-as-people" and "messiah-as-leader" been invoked. The messianic figure has always been claimed to be Messiah. Can anyone think of a counterexample?

 

[Ben Masada]

Not so. Many rabbis and other Jewish groups of the first century (not to mention many nowadays) say the messiah is a single person. In fact, despite my contact with several deeply religious Jews over the decades, and having spoken with them about such issues, you are the first I've heard claim a collective view of the messiah.

Don't mistake your strong conviction for evidence that your interpretation being the only option available.

Dunemeister, I do not mean to appear rude to you, but I care less about who says this or that about who the Messiah is. I don't shape my beliefs in the opinions of others, even the Pope. I go by the Scriptures; and I mean the Tanach.

You are mistaken about my being the first with the idea of the collective Messiah. The first was Isaiah, who identified the Suffering Servant with Israel by name. Next, the Psalmist if you read Psalm 44:11-27.

 

[Ben Masada]

All this is inconsistent with the way the word has been used. Lots of people have been anointed "messiah" over the years, and in no case has this distinction between "messiah-as-people" and "messiah-as-leader" been invoked. The messianic figure has always been claimed to be Messiah. Can anyone think of a counterexample?

Listen Dunemeister, if you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that no one needs to assume that he could have been Jesus. Take a look at Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Then, you can go to Psalm 44:11-27 where the Psalmist describes the Suffering Servant in the plural, as being the People.

And just another example, if you read Habakkuk 3:13, you will see that Israel, the Jewish People is the Anointed One of the Lord. Anointed One is the same as the Messiah or "Christ" in Greek. It means Israel is the Christ of God.

 

[Dunemeister]

Listen Dunemeister, if you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that no one needs to assume that he could have been Jesus. Take a look at Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Then, you can go to Psalm 44:11-27 where the Psalmist describes the Suffering Servant in the plural, as being the People.

And just another example, if you read Habakkuk 3:13, you will see that Israel, the Jewish People is the Anointed One of the Lord. Anointed One is the same as the Messiah or "Christ" in Greek. It means Israel is the Christ of God.

I wasn't making the point that Jesus is the Messiah, along the lines of the suffering servant, although I do in fact believe he is. I was merely correcting your claim that a collective understanding of the idea of messiah is the only one possible. Jews for many centuries, including centuries immediately before and after the first, and not including Christians, have advocated a view of the Messiah as a single person. Apparently, it's not so easy as a proof text or two....

 

[Dunemeister]

Dunemeister, I do not mean to appear rude to you, but I care less about who says this or that about who the Messiah is. I don't shape my beliefs in the opinions of others, even the Pope. I go by the Scriptures; and I mean the Tanach.

Good, then we are agreed about method. But I reject the notion that you use "only" the Tanach. Surely you are influenced by this or that exegete and/or oral tradition, just as I am.

You are mistaken about my being the first with the idea of the collective Messiah. The first was Isaiah, who identified the Suffering Servant with Israel by name. Next, the Psalmist if you read Psalm 44:11-27.

Is it a majority or mainstream opinion over the ages, or is it more or less idiosyncratic?

 

[Zardoz]

You do make a good point. So much so that I would compromise my views about the collective Messiah only as far as to consider the figurehead as a Messianic leader, but never the Messiah himself. The Messianic leader is replaceable. The Messiah per se is not. So, Moses was a Messianic leader with the mission to bring the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was a Messianic leader with the mission to proclaim the return of the Messiah to the Land of Israel and to finance the rebuilding of the Temple. Herzl was a Messianic leader with the mission to inspire the Messiah with love for Zion. And every figurehead of the People is a Messianic leader because of the fact that he belongs within the Messiah.

Yes, that is more or less my view. We can agree to disagree about the nature of the Individual Messiah Vs. Messianic Figure because in the final analysis it's all semantics as we expect the same thing from the Man and the People. We don't need a divine man-god or part of a triune god to be the Messiah. Because he's not alone, he has the People behind him.

Just out of curiosity, who do you consider to be the very first Messianic figure?

As you can probably guess, I consider Yosef to be the first. Hence the Messiah BEN Yosef. Understanding Yosef whom my Rebbi often called 'The Patriarch of Galut' and you understand Galut Edom.

 

[S-word]

Hey S-word, since you acknowledge all of the above powerful quotations in the Scriptures about Israel as the chosen People of God, how do you explain that God is not respecter of peoples? I am indeed interested in your opinion.

Yes I do acknowledge the above powerful quotations which you don’t, otherwise you would never have said, “It is a misconception to say that the Jewish People are God's Chosen People.”
Now Ben, let me explain to you the way a debate works; first you must now, either prove that the Lord did not say, “I provide water in the desert and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen, the people I formed for myself etc,” plus other scriptures which state that God had chosen Israel as his own people, or admit that you are incorrect in assuming that God did not choose the descendants of Jacob as a people of his own. Then and only then will I explain to you how the statement that “God is no respecter of peoples,” can be reconciled with the statement that God had chosen Israel as a people to himself. “I will call my Son (Israel) out of Egypt.” What other nation has the Lord ever called “My Son”?