Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Not only bagels but also salvation in the guarantee of a spot uner the sun. Wasn't what Jesus himself said to the Samaritan woman, that salvation is of the Jews? (John 4:22)
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Not only bagels but also salvation in the guarantee of a spot uner the sun. Wasn't what Jesus himself said to the Samaritan woman, that salvation is of the Jews? (John 4:22)
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Well words are words....
That is one of the problems with Judaism to be honest, it places far too much faith in words.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
You could say the same for the miracle of Noah, or Moses....
Proving one's faith/religion to be superior to another is rather lame...especially when the accusations pointed at another can be pointed straight back at the accuser...
You are correct in this Ben; Salvation is of the Jews, “Jesus,” wherein the innermost sanctuary of his being dwelt his saviour, his father ancestral spirit who was the compilation of all the spirits of good people who fell asleep in righteousness and were gathered to the bosom of Abraham, to who no ancestral spirit had been added since the rebirth of Enoch in the shinning one Noah, as not one of his ancestors from Noah down had died before he was born in whose innermost sanctuary, dwelt the living spirit of Enoch the 365 cycle sacrificial lamb of God.
Enoch, at the age of 365, was translated from a physical being to a spiritual being and carried to the ends of all things, where he witnessed the Heavens and earth burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss which was the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which, there was absolutely nothing.
The Book of Jubilees 4: 23-24; “And He (Enoch, who at the age of 365, the number of days in a calendar year) was taken from amongst the children of men, And we (The angels) conducted him into the Garden of Eden in majesty and honour, and behold there he writes down the condemnation and Judgment of the world, and all the wickedness of the children of men. And on account of it (God) brought the waters of the flood on all the land etc.
But before this, God commanded that he return to earth and reveal his writings to his sons, and an ancient angel colder than ice was called forward and he touched the face of Enoch, after which God said to him, “If thy face were not frozen here then no man on earth would behold thee.”
From the ‘Book of Enoch the Prophet’ CVI: 1-6, “Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore a son (and Lamech was the physical Father to Noah the giant) And his body was as white as snow and as red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair on his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness. And his father Lamech was afraid of him, (Just as Eve was terrified when she first saw Cain the shinning one and thought to kill him) and Lamech fled and ran to his father Methuselah. And he said to him: “I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different, and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his countenance is glorious. And it seems that he is not sprung from me, but from the angels. And I fear that in his days, a wonder may be wrought on the earth.
Enoch was among those sons of god who abandoned their own original abode and descended to earth where they defiled themself with the daughters of man bearing giants upon the earth.
The living ancestral spirit in Jesus who was the compilation of all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness, and had been gathered to the bosom, or rather the spirit within Abraham, chose his faithful servant Jesus as the body in which he would offer himself up as a sacrifice for the salvation of the body of mankind in which he had developed as the supreme personality of Godhead in his ascent to the ends of time.
He then died in the process of involution, releasing the spirits, of who, he was but the compilation, from the least to the greatest, diminishing into nothingness as Jesus the mind, evolved with each awakening until he was his ancestral spirit, who was the compilation of all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness and had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham. Enoch had died to become Jesus while Jesus had died to become Enoch the sacrificial Lamb of God. But the man Enoch was the least in the Omega, the glorious simulacrum which had evolved on the spirits of mankind in his ascent to the ends of time within the body of mankind. But I am going beyond your ability to comprehend.
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Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Well, since the day man learned to speak, words did become the main medium of communication, which has made of the Jews masters of it.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
You might be right. But I still have the advantage that by the lack of Noah or Moses, Judlaism would not fall. Could Christianity say the same if Jesus and Paul vanished into the smoke of a fire that never existed?
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
the question is, what constitutes a Jew....
the so called jews themselves have splinterted into so many groups
into fanatic and non fanantic alike...
Myself, I take the stance that a Jew is something, something akin to a type of person... not neccessarily one we in modern times call a Jew.
For example I doubt Christ was saying the Hasids will be saved but the Mormons wont.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
My penis is bigger than yours
Therefore you are inferior
I win everything because my penis is bigger.
This is all your puerile arguemnt amounts to.
This is yet another reason why what in modern times are called Jews are clearly not "saved"... it is far more complicated than being on the right team
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
I don't know where you got this text from, because the treshold of my ability to comprehend, you crossed since the first paragraph. Whatever it is, I praise your sense of imagination.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Wrong,
the vast majority of communication made from person to person is actually non verbal. Words themselves are secondary.
My point was that you assume words make you superior, as you state "which has made of the Jews masters of it"
Arrogance does not become a person, especially a truly pious one, yet ANOTHER reason why what is refferred to as jews are clearly not chosen...
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Correct me if I am wrong, but Jubilees and Enoch are generally not accepted by jews, mainly because there are shades of anti Moses "law",,, essentially remenants of splinter groups such as the Essenes who thought what in modern times to be Jews, as to be heretics, or more accuratly, to have strayed from the path.
Some argue the Jesus came to bring the jews back to the correct path, but the Jews refused.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
The Jews were not chosen because of any virtue they had but as a result of God's love for Abraham and his promises to him. Thus character defects (as you so antisemitically put the situation) is no indication that they are not chosen.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Well that is an exoteric view, sure.
Below the exoteric is a further, deeper understanding.
As a Jew I am able to point out the faults of my own people, and not be anti semetic, but heck, you know I'll point out the problems with your group and my own too if you like.
It is not a matter of character defects it is a matter of a sense of entitlement and arrogance, it goes beyond mere character defects to the point of stupidity.
It is like a spoiled child competing to have the biggest sandcastle. In fact if you hold the Jews in such good standing, why not convert? hmmm
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I only wish I was so much more spiritually enlightened like you are so I could have all those juicy truths not attainable by the ignorant masses. Shame.
Well the cure for that isn't to deny election but to remind them of the basis for that election.
Because I'm a Christian which, according to our theology, gives us a share.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Well the exoteric is often unable to see the esoteric.
If you really think God favors those that go around proclaiming they are "best" fine...
I see that as the act of a nit wit
...........
It all comes back, in a sense, to the term “esoteric,” which has been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. The concept is a keystone of Schuon’s thought (and appears in the title of one of his chief stud­ies, Esoterism as Principle and as Way)., Using the symbol of a circle and its center-a formulation that Schuon also employs in his writ­ings-another leading traditionalist author, Martin Lings, has described how esoterism is actually the link between world religions:
My intelligence had never been able to accept the exclu­sivist idea that there is only one valid religion. But now it had learned and most readily accepted the truth that the great religions of the world, all of them equally Heaven-sent in accordance with the various needs of different sectors of humanity, can be graphically represented by points on the circumference of a circle, each point being connected with the center, that is, with God, by a radius. The points stand for the outward aspects of the religions, whereas each radius is the esoteric path which the religion in question offers to those who seek a direct way to God in this life, and who are capable of compliance with the demands of that way of sanctification, demands far more rigorous and exacting than those of the exoteric way of salvation.
The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shart’ah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.
The secret is furthermore not clandestine out of paranoia or some perverse predilection for elitist exclusivism, but because exposure and publicity always crudely compromise the message being pre­served. As with the meaning of a fairy tale, any attempt to expose the esoteric to the light of rational analysis spoils it forever, robs it of all its magical meaning: truth vanishes in a puff of smoke under such circumstances. Ripping the veil off a hidden or sacred symbol reveals nothing of the inner clarity of the representation in ques­tion, but only the naked hollowness of the vision of the viewer.
The straight path-spoken of as “al-Sirat al-Mustaqfm” in the fati­hah, the all-embracing opening verses of the Qur’an-of true Sufism thus never really strays outside the circumference of the circle; nor does it meander in and out of it. It heads steadily (and usually with great difficulty) toward the center. As with a traditional craftsman, a painter, ,or a pianist, years of training in technique are required before the seeker is allowed the grace of improvisation-usually only when the center is within reach.
This demanding or rigorous path is never easy or comfortable, nor is it egalitarian or democratic, accessible to all. It is an initiatic way, the traditionalists insist, one of direct experience which cannot be spoken of to outsiders, not because the listener “should not” be told about it, but because they would and could not recognize the vocab­ulary, and the very attempt to verbalize it would do far more harm than good for the cause of understanding.
–Thomas Merton 200
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
No, clearly God favors those who have special access to secret truths which he only reveals to those with special ability or insight. As I said, it's a shame I'm not one of those.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
You are the one denying others, as is the other guy...
to quote what I posted, which negates your objection (next time actually read it!)
Maybe it is too difficult for you to understand? I would assume not, if you need a simpler explanation I am happy to provide one.
"The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shartah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference."
Wow! What class! What character!
Whoosh... off you go to my ignore list, with all the other antisemites.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Wow! What class! What character!
Whoosh... off you go to my ignore list, with all the other antisemites.
Its being anti-semetic to point out faults with your own people huh?
If Zoroastrians went around callign themselves the chosen race
Things would be different
Of course, race is a social construct, there are tendencies, not distinct races.
Jews as chosen, speaks more about who Jews are spiritually. The idea that one is chosen and special just cause you came from a certain vagina, thus meaning those tha came through a dfferent vagina are "not saved" and thus headed for "hell" or something "similar" is frankly bigoted.
Maybe it is just me, but Jews have been in Ghettos for over 5 thousand freaking years.... isn't it time to wake up, and join the human race instead of deliberatly secluding ourselves and moaning about being a JEw and how hard life is....
We are all homosapiens...
But then Jews are a funny bunch..... It really has gotten to the point where you cant say a bad word. You know, some of us are sane enough to stand up and admit, Jews aren't perfect or super special due to our mother's wombs!!!
:clap
“Love for oneself seems to be a paradoxical statement. If love is a bridge that unites, then how does love for oneself manifest? In truth, however, the profoundest love one has is for oneself. It is the glue that integrates a human being spiritually and psychologically. It is not love, as a feeling or a craving; rather it is of a different order; it is a state of being. The difference between a feeling and a state of being lies in their nature and how they are experienced. Feelings are fleeting and temporary. To be sustained, they need to be rekindled and continuously remembered. And they are evocative, depending on an outer stimulus. A state of being is constant and contextual. It is, whether remembered or not, and is the source of all feelings and actions. It is a place to come from. It is that which is being expressed, and it is at one with the expresser.”
- DovBer Pinson (Meditation and Judaism:Exploring the Jewish Meditative Paths)
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Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
And this after I posted a thread discarding the adjective of Chosen People with among other reasons, the purpose to avoid the charge of arrogance? We can never please all at the same time or everywhere.