Special Creation

[Mr Cheese]

And this after I posted a thread discarding the adjective of Chosen People with among other reasons, the purpose to avoid the charge of arrogance? We can never please all at the same time or everywhere.

Then why do you and other Jews even assert it?

Its no wonder most in my family are athiest Jews....

I'm one of the black sheep in that regard

 

[Ben Masada]

Then why do you and other Jews even assert it?

Its no wonder most in my family are athiest Jews....

I'm one of the black sheep in that regard

There is no such a thing as an Atheist Jew. He must be either a fool or lying.
How could Jews, who are the ones responsible for the right concept of the true God be Atheists? It makes no sense.

 

[S-word]

There is no such a thing as an Atheist Jew. He must be either a fool or lying.
How could Jews, who are the ones responsible for the right concept of the true God be Atheists? It makes no sense.

Hi ya Ben, did you put on Tefillin this morning? Tell us Ben, how many men from the tribe of Judah who live in Israel put on Tefillin each morning? How many men from the tribe of Judah belong to the Christian religion or one of the many factions of the Eastern religions? Wake up to yourself Ben, you're living in a world of your own creation, when will you enter the world of reality; not every Jew belongs to the religion known as Judaism.

 

[Zardoz]

Not every Jew wraps Tefillin, in fact I doubt most Reform Jews ever even get the opportunity. That doesn't mean they're not Jews. A better question would be if they have a mezuzah, which is far more common and available. However, these things are not a litmus test for 'Jewishness'.

The entire subject of apostate Jews is complex, as the principle is alway 'A Jew, even though he sins, remains a Jew'.

However, as one who is often, but erroneously, accused of being apostate, it's not pleasant at all to be in that position. I've known many Jews of many different faiths; including Buddhist and Christian (who call themselves Hebrew Christians) and almost universally these Jews still consider themselves Jews. Many still attend family Seders and other Jewish observances. Agnostics do too. They keep the tie to the old ways.

However, I understand and agree with Ben's appraisal that a Jew who declares that there is no G-d refutes the very reason he is a Jew, and denies the whole of the covenant! How any Jew with a Jewish Neshama can do this is beyond our understanding. We are not a race or a nationality. We Jews are a people, because G-d makes us so. Show me any other people, exiled from their homeland and scattered, persecuted and pursued, systematically wiped out, (on more than one occasion), made the pariahs of two dominant religions, for two millenia no less... and yet still is an identifiable group? One needs no further proof of our G-d existance than the Jews themselves, still existing. To deny G-d's existence to deny one's own Jewish existence, they are inseparable.

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi ya Ben, did you put on Tefillin this morning? Tell us Ben, how many men from the tribe of Judah who live in Israel put on Tefillin each morning? How many men from the tribe of Judah belong to the Christian religion or one of the many factions of the Eastern religions? Wake up to yourself Ben, you're living in a world of your own creation, when will you enter the world of reality; not every Jew belongs to the religion known as Judaism.

And you thought I did not know it? What on earth does this have anything to do with being Atheist or not? There are thousands of former Jews whom I classify within the context of Hosea 4:6. The moribunds who are dying for lack of knowledge. Those who leave Judaism for another faith, are no longer Jews. Therefore, my statement remains true that there are no Atheistic Jews. Unless you adopt the foolish idea that Jews are a race apart from the other races with Jewish blood running in their veins. If this is news to you, consider yourself a little wiser today than yesterday. There is more than one way for one to lose his or her Jewishness; as there are cases of children of "Jewish" mothers being born not Jewish.

 

[Ben Masada]

Not every Jew wraps Tefillin, in fact I doubt most Reform Jews ever even get the opportunity. That doesn't mean they're not Jews. A better question is if they have a mezuzah, which is far more common and available.

The entire subject of apostate Jews is complex, as the principle is alway 'A Jew, even though he sins, remains a Jew'.

However, as one who is often, but erroneously, accused of being apostate, it's not pleasant at all to be in that position. I've known many Jews of many different faiths; including Buddhist and Christian (who call themselves Hebrew Christians) and almost universally these Jews still consider themselves Jews. Many still attend family Seders and other Jewish observances. Agnostics too. They keep the tie to the old ways.

However, I understand and agree Ben's appraisal that a Jew who declares that there is no G-d refutes the very reason he is a Jew, and denies the whole of the covenant! How any Jew with a Jewish Neshama can do this is beyond our understanding. We are not a race or a nationality. We Jews are a people, because G-d makes us so. Show me any other people, exiled from their homeland and scattered, persecuted and pursued, systematically wiped out, (on more than one occasion), made the pariahs of two dominant religions, for two millenia no less... and yet still is an identifiable group? One needs no further proof of our G-d than the Jews themselves, still existing. To deny G-d's existence to deny one's own Jewish existence, they are inseparable.

Call haKavod Zardoz, and thank you for the support. God bless you too.

 

[S-word]

Quote Ben: Those (Jews) who leave Judaism for another faith, are no longer Jews. Therefore, my statement remains true that there are no Atheistic Jews.

So according to you Ben you don’t define a descendant of Judah or a member of the Jewish nation, as a Jew, for if that were the case then it wouldn’t matter what faith they belonged to, they would always remain a descendant of Judah or a member of the Jewish nation and therefore a Jew. A Jew according to your definition is a member of Judaism the Jewish religion, and once they renounce that faith, they are no longer a Jew. As no one can be a Buddhist, Christian, or an Atheist and still be a Jew according to your definition.

Quote Zardoz: I've known many Jews of many different faiths; including Buddhist and Christian (who call themselves Hebrew Christians) and almost universally these Jews still consider themselves Jews. Many still attend family Seders and other Jewish observances. Agnostics do too.

And you Zardoz have not committed yourself in this post as to what your definition of a Jew is.
As Ben in this statement---Call haKavod Zardoz, and thank you for the support. God bless you too.--- believes that you are supporting his view; do you also believe that a Jew is not a descendant of Judah, nor a member of the Jewish nation, but that a Jew is a follower of Judaism, the Jewish religion? If you do indeed support Bens view, then are you saying that a Jew who renounces his god to follow the teachings of Buddha, is no longer a Jew, even though they may still call themself a Jew and they themselves may consider themself to still be a Jew?

 

[Mr Cheese]

There is no such a thing as an Atheist Jew. He must be either a fool or lying.
How could Jews, who are the ones responsible for the right concept of the true God be Atheists? It makes no sense.

You haven't been to New York or seen a Woody Allen film obviously...

It is this kind of arrogance and/or stupidity which makes me raise my eyebrows at any kind of fundamentalist, which you may or may not be.... but I am willing to bet you fall somewhere near that "catagory"

Jews have been athiests for centuries, read the Torah, I might be incorrect, but I beleive even in scripture there were athiest Jews!

 

[Mr Cheese]

Not every Jew wraps Tefillin, in fact I doubt most Reform Jews ever even get the opportunity. That doesn't mean they're not Jews. A better question would be if they have a mezuzah, which is far more common and available. However, these things are not a litmus test for 'Jewishness'.

The entire subject of apostate Jews is complex, as the principle is alway 'A Jew, even though he sins, remains a Jew'.

However, as one who is often, but erroneously, accused of being apostate, it's not pleasant at all to be in that position. I've known many Jews of many different faiths; including Buddhist and Christian (who call themselves Hebrew Christians) and almost universally these Jews still consider themselves Jews. Many still attend family Seders and other Jewish observances. Agnostics do too. They keep the tie to the old ways.

However, I understand and agree with Ben's appraisal that a Jew who declares that there is no G-d refutes the very reason he is a Jew, and denies the whole of the covenant! How any Jew with a Jewish Neshama can do this is beyond our understanding. We are not a race or a nationality. We Jews are a people, because G-d makes us so. Show me any other people, exiled from their homeland and scattered, persecuted and pursued, systematically wiped out, (on more than one occasion), made the pariahs of two dominant religions, for two millenia no less... and yet still is an identifiable group? One needs no further proof of our G-d existance than the Jews themselves, still existing. To deny G-d's existence to deny one's own Jewish existence, they are inseparable.

You claim to be a messianic Jew....

In turn, many Jews would "s******" at that...

but there, I'm not the one that immediatly ignored someone for being "anti semetic"

 

[Mr Cheese]

Quote Ben: Those (Jews) who leave Judaism for another faith, are no longer Jews. Therefore, my statement remains true that there are no Atheistic Jews.

So according to you Ben you don’t define a descendant of Judah or a member of the Jewish nation, as a Jew, for if that were the case then it wouldn’t matter what faith they belonged to, they would always remain a descendant of Judah or a member of the Jewish nation and therefore a Jew. A Jew according to your definition is a member of Judaism the Jewish religion, and once they renounce that faith, they are no longer a Jew. As no one can be a Buddhist, Christian, or an Atheist and still be a Jew according to your definition.

Quote Zardoz: I've known many Jews of many different faiths; including Buddhist and Christian (who call themselves Hebrew Christians) and almost universally these Jews still consider themselves Jews. Many still attend family Seders and other Jewish observances. Agnostics do too.

And you Zardoz have not committed yourself in this post as to what your definition of a Jew is.
As Ben in this statement---Call haKavod Zardoz, and thank you for the support. God bless you too.--- believes that you are supporting his view; do you also believe that a Jew is not a descendant of Judah, nor a member of the Jewish nation, but that a Jew is a follower of Judaism, the Jewish religion? If you do indeed support Bens view, then are you saying that a Jew who renounces his god to follow the teachings of Buddha, is no longer a Jew, even though they may still call themself a Jew and they themselves may consider themself to still be a Jew?

If we "follow" the ideas of Maimonides, of course, it is how one is conceived that makes one a Jew....

Personally I could care less about who's a Jew, who has the big nose, the horns and is called Ishamael, Rebecca, Noah or Benjamin....

What I DO find problematic is the sheer bigotry of those that profess to be Jews.
I find arrogance, bigotry, elitism and "simple" fanaticism of any kind in any group to be problematic... a closed mind is a closed mind.

But shrug, homosapiens like their groups....
Time to wake up...

...............

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic Mills?


Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!


I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land

 

[Ben Masada]

Quote Ben: Those (Jews) who leave Judaism for another faith, are no longer Jews. Therefore, my statement remains true that there are no Atheistic Jews.

So according to you Ben you don’t define a descendant of Judah or a member of the Jewish nation, as a Jew, for if that were the case then it wouldn’t matter what faith they belonged to, they would always remain a descendant of Judah or a member of the Jewish nation and therefore a Jew. A Jew according to your definition is a member of Judaism the Jewish religion, and once they renounce that faith, they are no longer a Jew. As no one can be a Buddhist, Christian, or an Atheist and still be a Jew according to your definition.

Quote Zardoz: I've known many Jews of many different faiths; including Buddhist and Christian (who call themselves Hebrew Christians) and almost universally these Jews still consider themselves Jews. Many still attend family Seders and other Jewish observances. Agnostics do too.

And you Zardoz have not committed yourself in this post as to what your definition of a Jew is.
As Ben in this statement---Call haKavod Zardoz, and thank you for the support. God bless you too.--- believes that you are supporting his view; do you also believe that a Jew is not a descendant of Judah, nor a member of the Jewish nation, but that a Jew is a follower of Judaism, the Jewish religion? If you do indeed support Bens view, then are you saying that a Jew who renounces his god to follow the teachings of Buddha, is no longer a Jew, even though they may still call themself a Jew and they themselves may consider themself to still be a Jew?

Zardox is 100 percent right when he says that many Jews who leave Judaism and adopt another faith still consider themselves Jews. And am equally right when I do not consider them Jews. Check out the Jewish Law of Return in Israel. Former Jews who adopt a faith other than Judaism, he or she has forfeited his or her right to the Law of Return for being a FORMER Jew. No longer a Jew according to Halacha, or Jewish Law.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Zardox is 100 percent right when he says that many Jews who leave Judaism and adopt another faith still consider themselves Jews. And am equally right when I do not consider them Jews. Check out the Jewish Law of Return in Israel. Former Jews who adopt a faith other than Judaism, he or she has forfeited his or her right to the Law of Return for being a FORMER Jew. No longer a Jew according to Halacha, or Jewish Law.

Exactly the kind of sentiment with which I have a problem with...

But then fundamentalists are fundamentalists, whatever their ilk and justification of bigotry

 

[Ben Masada]

You haven't been to New York or seen a Woody Allen film obviously...

It is this kind of arrogance and/or stupidity which makes me raise my eyebrows at any kind of fundamentalist, which you may or may not be.... but I am willing to bet you fall somewhere near that "catagory"

Jews have been athiests for centuries, read the Torah, I might be incorrect, but I beleive even in scripture there were athiest Jews!

Now, if Woody Allen makes a joke about being Jewish, he is an Atheist? He is being satirical. That's what he does for a living. Grow up yourself! In another forum, a poster argued with me that Einstein was an Atheist. Once, someone asked if he believed in God. His answer was that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Many thought that his answer was a joke until the Scientists proved that the Universe expands. That's God at His work of Creation.

 

[Ben Masada]

Exactly the kind of sentiment with which I have a problem with...

But then fundamentalists are fundamentalists, whatever their ilk and justification of bigotry

That's something I also have a problem with. We have spent our whole lives throughout almost 2,000 years suffering from the bigotry of the Gentiles, and now, that we express our discontentment against those who betray our Faith for another, suddenly you come from nowhere to say that we are the bigots. Go ahead and multiply your problem but don't refer to us in this bias attitude that we cannot use of bigotry when everyone else uses it against us. The time for the masochistic Jew of the Holocaust is gone. We are a new generation of proud Jews, ready to stand our ground without fear.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Now, if Woody Allen makes a joke about being Jewish, he is an Atheist? He is being satirical. That's what he does for a living. Grow up yourself! In another forum, a poster argued with me that Einstein was an Atheist. Once, someone asked if he believed in God. His answer was that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. Many thought that his answer was a joke until the Scientists proved that the Universe expands. That's God at His work of Creation.

Oh please

Woody Allen isnt an atheist?

geez....you really are uninformed

Allen is a well known atheist, watch his films!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2]Woody Allen (1935-)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]American comic actor, writer, and filmmaker[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]

The chief problem about death, incidentally, is the fear that there may be no afterlife -- a depressing thought, particularly for those who have bothered to shave. Also, there is the fear that there is an afterlife but no one will know where it's being held.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, "The Early Essays," Without Feathers[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]I do occasionally envy the person who is religious naturally, without being brainwashed into it or suckered into it by all the organized hustles.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, Rolling Stone, 1987[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss bank.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, "Selections from the Allen Notebooks," in New Yorker, Nov. 5, 1973[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Not only is there no God, but try getting a plumber on weekends.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, "My Philosophy," The New Yorker (December 27, 1969), Getting Even "My Philosophy" (1971)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, from the final monologue in his film, Love and Death (Thanks, Geof!)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen (attributed: source unknown)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]

In real life, Keaton believes in God. But she also believes that the radio works because there are tiny people inside it.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, (attributed: source unknown)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]I don't want to achieve immortality through my work ... I want to achieve it through not dying.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Woody Allen, quoted in: Edward Lax, Woody Allen and his Comedy, ch. 12 (1975), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]If Woody Allen were a Muslim, he'd be dead by now.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]-- Salman Rushdie, Indian-born British author, quoted in: Independent (London, 18 February 1989), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations[/SIZE][/FONT]

............

You're arguments are puerile....

Coming from a LONG line of Jewish Athiests I find your bigotry highly offensive

Clearly you have never been to New York City, which is FULL of Atheist Jews

 

[Mr Cheese]

That's something I also have a problem with. We have spent our whole lives throughout almost 2,000 years suffering from the bigotry of the Gentiles, and now, that we express our discontentment against those who betray our Faith for another, suddenly you come from nowhere to say that we are the bigots. Go ahead and multiply your problem but don't refer to us in this bias attitude that we cannot use of bigotry when everyone else uses it against us. The time for the masochistic Jew of the Holocaust is gone. We are a new generation of proud Jews, ready to stand our ground without fear.

You are the bigot because you point at others that arent religiously as adherant or fundamental or orthodox as you, and state they arent Jews

You are aware, by your Yardstick, Einstein would NOT BE A JEW....right?

2000 yrs of persecution by the gentiles? perhaps if there wasnt so much arrogance then things may have been different..... The holocaust happend, but you know this revisionist history where it was all the gentiles fault and the Jews were blameless is total hogwash.........

The Jews were blameless, we we just persecuted by the gentiles...boo hoooo lets cry about it, and create another ghetto for ourselves.

Jews like you think they have the monopoly on being persecuted. You know neo nazi's and protestants claim they are persecuted too you know. Considering how successful, intelligent, sexy, how much difference we have made to the world and hard working Jews are.......... It is time to grow up and stop being big babies:sad4:

How many Jewish Shanty towns in the 3rd world do you see?

Puhlease...your assertions are, to be polite, troublesome

 

[Mr Cheese]

The time for the masochistic Jew of the Holocaust is gone. We are a new generation of proud Jews, ready to stand our ground without fear.

Pride comes before a fall....

“A learned and charitable man had constant problems with pride. He was told that if he could learn to be humble, he would become a perfect person. The man listened to the advice and dedicated himself to the study of the questions of humility until he knew, almost by heart, all the recommendations to avoid pride. One day, someone failed to show him due deference. The man who thought himself humble, came to the person and said, “You fool! Don’t you realize since I learned about humility, I am a man of perfect character, deserving respect?”

–The Kabbalah of Envy

 

[Zardoz]

...
And you Zardoz have not committed yourself in this post as to what your definition of a Jew is.
As Ben in this statement---Call haKavod Zardoz, and thank you for the support. God bless you too.--- believes that you are supporting his view; do you also believe that a Jew is not a descendant of Judah, nor a member of the Jewish nation, but that a Jew is a follower of Judaism, the Jewish religion? If you do indeed support Bens view, then are you saying that a Jew who renounces his god to follow the teachings of Buddha, is no longer a Jew, even though they may still call themself a Jew and they themselves may consider themself to still be a Jew?

As the old saying goes, two Jews - three opinions. I respect Ben's opinion as he respects mine, we both understand these positions. Judaism is strengthened by differences, look at the Talmud.

As I said, 'A Jew, even though he sins, remains a Jew'.

Many Jews have been attracted to Buddhism, but the key here is many do not feel they are forsaking or renouncing G-d to follow the Buddha, they see it as additional truths added to the truths they already know. They see themselves as Jewish Buddhists. I'm speaking from experience here, I dated one for a long while. VERY Jewish, and VERY Buddhist. Like most Jews, I didn't see much harm in her beliefs, but I had to draw the line at the shrine in her home, as no way could I have that in my home as it seemed like idol worship to me (no matter what it meant to her) so we had irreconcilable differences and split up. But, she always had the option of return. Many Jews make Tshuva from all sorts of situations, so long as they leave a path to return. Even I, have practiced Shotokan Karate for decades, yet it has a spiritual Zen element I don't deny. The moving Zen of Kata doesn't change my Jewishness, it's a separate compartment in my life. I doubt most Rabbis would consider me apostate on that reason, no religious conflict exists at all, IMO.

'Who is a Jew' is a complex issue. Converts are also Jews in every sense of the word, though they are not a physical descendant of Judah, but a spiritual one. Yet even the most righteous and sincere Ger may still harbor, perhaps not even consciously, some faith elements of their past heritage. It's almost to be expected, yet Jews do not hold this against them, they are taken at their word the desire to cleave to G-d and the Jewish people. This is something that may take a while, to get everything worked out. Same with Jews who adopt faiths. Hopefully, these faiths are not in conflict with Judaism but if they are to whatever extent there's always Tshuava.

All that being said, there are ways to sever all ties with the Jewish people. Some Jews don't just blend other faiths with their Judaism or simply wander off or go secular and become agnostic. Some take an adversarial role and attack the Jewish people they were once a part of. Some of the most aggressive and hateful detractors have been ex-jews. History is full of them, for example the ones who attacked and persecuted the Jews mercilessly during the period of expulsion from Spain (Alhambra Decree).

 

[S-word]

As the old saying goes, two Jews - three opinions. I respect Ben's opinion as he respects mine, we both understand these positions. Judaism is strengthened by differences, look at the Talmud.

As I said, 'A Jew, even though he sins, remains a Jew'.

Many Jews have been attracted to Buddhism, but the key here is many do not feel they are forsaking or renouncing G-d to follow the Buddha, they see it as additional truths added to the truths they already know. They see themselves as Jewish Buddhists. I'm speaking from experience here, I dated one for a long while. VERY Jewish, and VERY Buddhist. Like most Jews, I didn't see much harm in her beliefs, but I had to draw the line at the shrine in her home, as no way could I have that in my home as it seemed like idol worship to me (no matter what it meant to her) so we had irreconcilable differences and split up. But, she always had the option of return. Many Jews make Tshuva from all sorts of situations, so long as they leave a path to return. Even I, have practiced Shotokan Karate for decades, yet it has a spiritual Zen element I don't deny. The moving Zen of Kata doesn't change my Jewishness, it's a separate compartment in my life. I doubt most Rabbis would consider me apostate on that reason, no religious conflict exists at all, IMO.

'Who is a Jew' is a complex issue. Converts are also Jews in every sense of the word, though they are not a physical descendant of Judah, but a spiritual one. Yet even the most righteous and sincere Ger may still harbor, perhaps not even consciously, some faith elements of their past heritage. It's almost to be expected, yet Jews do not hold this against them, they are taken at their word the desire to cleave to G-d and the Jewish people. This is something that may take a while, to get everything worked out. Same with Jews who adopt faiths. Hopefully, these faiths are not in conflict with Judaism but if they are to whatever extent there's always Tshuava.

All that being said, there are ways to sever all ties with the Jewish people. Some Jews don't just blend other faiths with their Judaism or simply wander off or go secular and become agnostic. Some take an adversarial role and attack the Jewish people they were once a part of. Some of the most aggressive and hateful detractors have been ex-jews. History is full of them, for example the ones who attacked and persecuted the Jews mercilessly during the period of expulsion from Spain (Alhambra Decree).

Thank you for a sensible and well thought out response, unlike that of others.

Some of the most aggressive and hateful detractors have been ex-jews. History is full of them, for example the ones who attacked and persecuted the Jews mercilessly during the period of expulsion from Spain (Alhambra Decree).

Not only ex-Jews my friend, what about those Jews who hunted down and persecuted their brother Jews who decided to follow a differnt way before the great war in 70 A.D.? This is not predudicial toward Jews, but only to those fanatics who would attempt to muder a person because they are an apostate.

 

[Zardoz]

Not only ex-Jews my friend, what about those Jews who hunted down and persecuted their brother Jews who decided to follow a differnt way before the great war in 70 A.D.? This is not predudicial toward Jews, but only to those fanatics who would attempt to muder a person because they are an apostate.

The event of the Bar Kokhba Revolt you speak of should be viewed more from a political viewpoint than a religious one. The revolt by that false messiah was and is a tragedy, with long lasting effects. However, it was a time of war with much at stake. You know how conscientious objectors are looked upon even in modern times imagine how they were viewed in ancient times.